RE: The question to ask about The Italians

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warspite1 -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/29/2020 6:06:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay Vichy France (now an Axis ally) warspite1 I think I've been asking the wrong question. The correct question should have been: Is there anything that you DO actually understand about World War II????

Zovs -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/29/2020 8:18:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VPaulus quote: ORIGINAL: Zovs What about Portugal? I don't know to much about them but would not they side with the CW and Spain against a German invasion? Portugal (the Portuguese fascist regime) was only interested in keeping the country out of the war. They would resist to the last in keeping it neutral. While the regime had political sympathies towards Germany and Italy, they had also to think about the Windsor treaty and its implications. It was a political and a diplomatic effort to keep the regime and the colonies with no changes regardless the outcome of the war. When it was obvious that the Axis powers were going to loose the war, the regime started to side with the Allies. VPaulus, thank you that shed some good light on Portugal for me. I much appreciate it

Zovs -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/29/2020 8:21:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 quote: ORIGINAL: VPaulus quote: ORIGINAL: Zovs What about Portugal? I don't know to much about them but would not they side with the CW and Spain against a German invasion? Portugal (the Portuguese fascist regime) was only interested in keeping the country out of the war. They would resist to the last in keeping it neutral. While the regime had political sympathies towards Germany and Italy, they had also to think about the Windsor treaty and its implications. It was a political and a diplomatic effort to keep the regime and the colonies with no changes regardless the outcome of the war. When it was obvious that the Axis powers were going to loose the war, the regime started to side with the Allies. warspite1 Thanks for the input VP. I've seen comments that suggest the Germans wouldn't let an independent Portugal survive if the Germans entered Spain. I've also seen comments to suggest that Germany would just keep a watching brief. Trouble with either is that they would need a garrison either way. Difficult to know how that one would go in either scenario. If Spain joined the Axis would they seek to incorporate Portugal do you think? What were Spanish-Portuguese relations like in 1940? If Spain refuses to join the Axis, would the Germans seek to occupy Portugal? We know Hitler was paranoid about his flanks and exposed coastline... I would welcome your thoughts. Excellent questions warspite! Looking forward to seeing some answers. I always thought (but did not know) that the Portuguese were pro Allied all the way. This thread has educated me on both Spain and Portugal. I did not realize that there were still by 1940 several factions in Spain, I thought that Franco just ran the whole show and that Portugal was pro Allied. Thanks for all the learning.

RangerJoe -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/30/2020 1:38:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 The Germans have a narrow front to attack from with no diversion of Spanish force elsewhere. Everything would depend on how long the Spanish could hold the Germans up in the hills and mountains along the border, how much damage they could do to the rail line and roads (destroying bridges and collapsing tunnels) and thus give Spain time to mobilise fully. Much too depends on the response from the British. Do they know how vulnerable the German supply line is in on the border? Strategic surprise trumps much of that. The tiny Spanish army is in a peacetime deployment - located all over the country. warspite1 Nope, wrong on all counts, next. Wow - it's great fun writing pithy one liners that simply say I'm right isn't it? But SPI agrees with me. Who gives a **** what SPI believes, they were in it to make money, not to be historically accurate. You don't think that they Spanish weren't mobilizing and planning?

RangerJoe -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/30/2020 2:14:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zovs quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 quote: ORIGINAL: VPaulus quote: ORIGINAL: Zovs What about Portugal? I don't know to much about them but would not they side with the CW and Spain against a German invasion? Portugal (the Portuguese fascist regime) was only interested in keeping the country out of the war. They would resist to the last in keeping it neutral. While the regime had political sympathies towards Germany and Italy, they had also to think about the Windsor treaty and its implications. It was a political and a diplomatic effort to keep the regime and the colonies with no changes regardless the outcome of the war. When it was obvious that the Axis powers were going to loose the war, the regime started to side with the Allies. warspite1 Thanks for the input VP. I've seen comments that suggest the Germans wouldn't let an independent Portugal survive if the Germans entered Spain. I've also seen comments to suggest that Germany would just keep a watching brief. Trouble with either is that they would need a garrison either way. Difficult to know how that one would go in either scenario. If Spain joined the Axis would they seek to incorporate Portugal do you think? What were Spanish-Portuguese relations like in 1940? If Spain refuses to join the Axis, would the Germans seek to occupy Portugal? We know Hitler was paranoid about his flanks and exposed coastline... I would welcome your thoughts. Excellent questions warspite! Looking forward to seeing some answers. I always thought (but did not know) that the Portuguese were pro Allied all the way. This thread has educated me on both Spain and Portugal. I did not realize that there were still by 1940 several factions in Spain, I thought that Franco just ran the whole show and that Portugal was pro Allied. Thanks for all the learning. Spain had both pro-German and pro-English/British/Allied people in the government. But Spain depended upon the Allies and their friends such as the US to keep them supplied with food and fuel. Not all that the Spanish government wanted but what they needed so no excess would go to Germany. Vichy was not a Nazi-German ally, the US did ship food there for awhile. But the Vichy regime did cooperate with the Nazi Germans.

warspite1 -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/30/2020 8:14:29 AM)
As indicated in the posts yesterday, I think this thread has long since passed it's usefulness. There doesn't appear to be a consensus on any single point. I mean that shouldn't be possible if everyone comes at this with an open mind. This is Lemay's counterfactual scenario and one he is proposing would have worked for Germany, it is his case to make. But sadly it appears he has no interest in doing that (or at least not in a constructive way). He believes a series of (apparently concise) one line answers without the need for much supporting 'evidence' is all that is required to confirm that he is right - and who knows? Perhaps he is. But the little 'evidence' he has provided to support his view, is made up of a war game manual, a war game rule book, a war game map, a couple of irrelevant Wiki paragraphs and a WWII Atlas. I believe these should have the appropriate weight placed on them i.e. not much. Just as disappointing - and hugely surprising I must say - is that he actually has shown a remarkable lack of knowledge about World War II, and I have simply lost count of the number of factual inaccuracies he's offered up. Suggesting Vichy was an Axis ally was probably the last straw for me. We all make mistakes now and again, but such a lack of knowledge about so many aspects of WWII doesn't give confidence when discussing counterfactuals - I mean one needs to know something of the actual history right? So if anyone is interested I will jot down a Med First counterfactual and would welcome thoughts and insights so that we can come to a consensus on what we think may have been possible (recognising that our knowledge is necessarily limited (we are not historians!) but that, as war gamers with a keen interest in what we play, many of us will have at least some knowledge to impart). I envisaged that this would have been how the thread would have panned out originally but despite repeated requests for a case to be made, its clearly not going to happen. I'll make a start on it and see what, if any, interest it attracts. The essentials will be: - Hitler is persuaded to employ a Mediterranean-First strategy to weaken the British (or ideally get them to surrender) before an assault on the Soviet Union is made in the Summer of 1942. - This plan will involve the taking of Gibraltar and Hitler will be so persuaded by the plan, that he will - as a last resort - even be prepared to invade Spain - A second prong of this scenario is a declaration of war against Turkey (if she can't be brought into the Axis camp) and thus a pincer move to take Egypt from the west and north. - Moving Hitler's thinking in this way is a pretty big alteration to reality so I think we need to sensible in terms of trying to ensure we keep other key players in the scenario acting in line with their character. This doesn't mean everyone is hidebound to do what they did in WWII obviously - everyone can react to changing circumstance - but we just need to be sensible. Hopefully this will be a bit of fun and I would like to think that there are enough war gamers in our community with WWII knowledge that would be happy to join in and give their 2 cents, or GBP 0.02 or Euro 0.02 [:)]

Buckrock -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/30/2020 9:58:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 quote: ORIGINAL: VPaulus quote: ORIGINAL: Zovs What about Portugal? I don't know to much about them but would not they side with the CW and Spain against a German invasion? Portugal (the Portuguese fascist regime) was only interested in keeping the country out of the war. They would resist to the last in keeping it neutral. While the regime had political sympathies towards Germany and Italy, they had also to think about the Windsor treaty and its implications. It was a political and a diplomatic effort to keep the regime and the colonies with no changes regardless the outcome of the war. When it was obvious that the Axis powers were going to loose the war, the regime started to side with the Allies. warspite1 Thanks for the input VP. I've seen comments that suggest the Germans wouldn't let an independent Portugal survive if the Germans entered Spain. I've also seen comments to suggest that Germany would just keep a watching brief. Trouble with either is that they would need a garrison either way. Difficult to know how that one would go in either scenario. If Spain joined the Axis would they seek to incorporate Portugal do you think? What were Spanish-Portuguese relations like in 1940? If Spain refuses to join the Axis, would the Germans seek to occupy Portugal? We know Hitler was paranoid about his flanks and exposed coastline... I would welcome your thoughts. Well, you can have my thoughts in the meantime. What operational plans Hitler authorised that did include options for a forceful entry into the Iberian Peninsula (the later Isabella, Ilona, Gisela plans) were ones that would be implemented only as a counter to the British invading the peninsula or if for some reason one or both of the Iberian countries decided to go over to the dark side and openly join Perfidious Albion against the Axis. So it would appear that if the annoying Brits didn't visit and the Iberian kids played quietly, there were no real German intention to invade and occupy them, at least until Hitler had succeeded in his plan to forcibly take ownership of Uncle Joe's living room, after that anything was possible. As for the Spanish and Portugese regimes, they had a fairly cordial relationship, backed up by a mutual non-aggression agreement (the Iberian Pact) but probably what really kept in line any ambitions that Franco had for Spanish expansion was that he could do little without German military support, which meant (gasp) commitment to Herr Hitler. The Spanish may have just been strong enough on their own to successfully tackle Portugal (Franco did give it some consideration) but then Portugal would likely invoke her own treaty with Britain, who would almost certainly declare war, resulting in Germany being forced to intervene and then Franco ends up where he doesn't want to be, openly on the side of the Axis and now actively caught up in a long war but with few of the benefits he'd originally hoped to gain for Spain. And if Spain joined the Axis (particularly in 1940), Portugal may well have then done whatever was needed to win Hitler's favor to ensure her immediate survival, including possibly allowing a German presence along their Atlantic coastal regions. Salazar had implied this to the British immediately before the BoB when no one (including Portugal) knew for sure whether the Spanish were about to go full Nazi. The Portuguese also expected such an arrangement with the Germans would immediately cost them the Azores to a Brit take-over ("Operation Brisk", in the top five on Churchill's playlist). The British counter-offer to Portugal's allowing a German presence was one where the Portuguese government would instead evacuate, forming a government-in-exile and shifting their best troops from Portugal to the Azores where they would be joined by British forces and together they could stand defiantly together while cheering on Portuguese guerrillas harassing the Axis on the mainland. Strangely, Salazar was somewhat non-committal on this plan when it was offered in 1940.

Buckrock -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/30/2020 10:01:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 Hopefully this will be a bit of fun and I would like to think that there are enough war gamers in our community with WWII knowledge that would be happy to join in and give their 2 cents, or GBP 0.02 or Euro 0.02 [:)] And hopefully you won't break the internet with a 1000+ page thread.

warspite1 -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/30/2020 10:28:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Buckrock quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 quote: ORIGINAL: VPaulus quote: ORIGINAL: Zovs What about Portugal? I don't know to much about them but would not they side with the CW and Spain against a German invasion? Portugal (the Portuguese fascist regime) was only interested in keeping the country out of the war. They would resist to the last in keeping it neutral. While the regime had political sympathies towards Germany and Italy, they had also to think about the Windsor treaty and its implications. It was a political and a diplomatic effort to keep the regime and the colonies with no changes regardless the outcome of the war. When it was obvious that the Axis powers were going to loose the war, the regime started to side with the Allies. warspite1 Thanks for the input VP. I've seen comments that suggest the Germans wouldn't let an independent Portugal survive if the Germans entered Spain. I've also seen comments to suggest that Germany would just keep a watching brief. Trouble with either is that they would need a garrison either way. Difficult to know how that one would go in either scenario. If Spain joined the Axis would they seek to incorporate Portugal do you think? What were Spanish-Portuguese relations like in 1940? If Spain refuses to join the Axis, would the Germans seek to occupy Portugal? We know Hitler was paranoid about his flanks and exposed coastline... I would welcome your thoughts. Well, you can have my thoughts in the meantime. What operational plans Hitler authorised that did include options for a forceful entry into the Iberian Peninsula (the later Isabella, Ilona, Gisela plans) were ones that would be implemented only as a counter to the British invading the peninsula or if for some reason one or both of the Iberian countries decided to go over to the dark side and openly join Perfidious Albion against the Axis. So it would appear that if the annoying Brits didn't visit and the Iberian kids played quietly, there were no real German intention to invade and occupy them, at least until Hitler had succeeded in his plan to forcibly take ownership of Uncle Joe's living room, after that anything was possible. As for the Spanish and Portugese regimes, they had a fairly cordial relationship, backed up by a mutual non-aggression agreement (the Iberian Pact) but probably what really kept in line any ambitions that Franco had for Spanish expansion was that he could do little without German military support, which meant (gasp) commitment to Herr Hitler. The Spanish may have just been strong enough on their own to successfully tackle Portugal (Franco did give it some consideration) but then Portugal would likely invoke her own treaty with Britain, who would almost certainly declare war, resulting in Germany being forced to intervene and then Franco ends up where he doesn't want to be, openly on the side of the Axis and now actively caught up in a long war but with few of the benefits he'd originally hoped to gain for Spain. And if Spain joined the Axis (particularly in 1940), Portugal may well have then done whatever was needed to win Hitler's favor to ensure her immediate survival, including possibly allowing a German presence along their Atlantic coastal regions. Salazar had implied this to the British immediately before the BoB when no one (including Portugal) knew for sure whether the Spanish were about to go full Nazi. The Portuguese also expected such an arrangement with the Germans would immediately cost them the Azores to a Brit take-over ("Operation Brisk", in the top five on Churchill's playlist). The British counter-offer to Portugal's allowing a German presence was one where the Portuguese government would instead evacuate, forming a government-in-exile and shifting their best troops from Portugal to the Azores where they would be joined by British forces and together they could stand defiantly together while cheering on Portuguese guerrillas harassing the Axis on the mainland. Strangely, Salazar was somewhat non-committal on this plan when it was offered in 1940. warspite1 Thank-you that is the sort of effort I was hoping for.

warspite1 -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/30/2020 10:35:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Buckrock quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 Hopefully this will be a bit of fun and I would like to think that there are enough war gamers in our community with WWII knowledge that would be happy to join in and give their 2 cents, or GBP 0.02 or Euro 0.02 [:)] And hopefully you won't break the internet with a 1000+ page thread. warspite1 No definitely not, after all I don't want to be accused of draining your lap top battery....[;)] I'm over a third of the way though with this one (below) and so far the internet has remained intact so we should be okay... and if the thread doesn't prove popular then it won't be going anywhere anyway. So either way I think Sir Tim Berners-Lee's creation is safe.... https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3083586&mpage=362�

warspite1 -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/30/2020 11:20:49 AM)
So the very first question we need to have a consensus on is when, realistically, Hitler would have decided a Med strategy is the way to go. My view is that such a strategy should not be considered until June - and this would have been after the armistice is signed. I say this for three main reasons: 1. Going for any strategy - be it a Med strategy or a Soviet strategy or a Sea Lion strategy - is totally superfluous to Hitler's thinking until such time as Poland and France are defeated. After all, who - least of all Hitler - is going to imagine how the war will pan out in September 1939. 2. Only once Hitler knows Mussolini has joined the war, does the Med even come onto anyone's radar. 3. During May and June 1940 Hitler has his hands full trying to beat France, Britain and their Allies. To suggest that at this time Hitler is going to be diverted from this major operation (Case Yellow) to start thinking earnestly about Spain, and having in-depth conversations with Mussolini and Franco, while France has yet to be resolved, just seems highly unlikely. Why is this important and the place to start? Well for two reasons: a) it governs how quickly, after France, an attack on Spain would take place - and that is really important in terms of the knock-on effect elsewhere, the preparedness of the various belligerents etc b) it also governs what Hitler may or may not have ordered during his time of indecision after France surrenders. So that's my thoughts, but what do others think? So when, realistically, do we think Hitler would have had his light-bulb moment? To be clear this is simply when Hitler decides that a Med First solution is to be planned and not when the planning is finalised - that comes next....

VPaulus -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/30/2020 11:41:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 If Spain joined the Axis would they seek to incorporate Portugal do you think? What were Spanish-Portuguese relations like in 1940? If Spain joined the Axis, I've no doubt that they would incorporate Portugal, in spite there was an Iberian Pact between the two countries. The Iberian Pact was a non-aggression pact signed in 1939, but we know what can happen with signed pacts. As a side note, Salazar never trusted Franco. Franco had written a thesis (as far as I remember it was written when he was the Infantry Academy) on how to invade Portugal in 24 hours. So the intent to invade Portugal was there. Later, in 1975, he equated once again in invading Portugal. quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 If Spain refuses to join the Axis, would the Germans seek to occupy Portugal? We know Hitler was paranoid about his flanks and exposed coastline... If Spain was invaded by Germany, they would had also to invade Portugal or at least arrange a deal with Salazar that would permit fully access to the Portuguese mainland and to the wolfram mines. Was a deal possible when there was Windsor treaty? With a German invasion, this would force, most probably, the British to invade Azores islands. Would the Portuguese government then evacuate to the Azores, forming a government-in-exile? That's another possibility. quote: ORIGINAL: Zovs I always thought (but did not know) that the Portuguese were pro Allied all the way. Please note that the Portuguese regime was a fascist (some prefer just to call it as an authoritarian) regime. One of the fears of the regime, and the hopes of the democratic opposition, was if in the case the Allies won the war, this would put international pressure to end the dictatorship in Portugal.

warspite1 -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/30/2020 11:50:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VPaulus quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 If Spain joined the Axis would they seek to incorporate Portugal do you think? What were Spanish-Portuguese relations like in 1940? If Spain joined the Axis, I've no doubt that they would incorporate Portugal, in spite there was an Iberian Pact between the two countries. The Iberian Pact was a non-aggression pact signed in 1939, but we know what can happen with signed pacts. As a side note, Salazar never trusted Franco. Franco had written a thesis (as far as I remember it was written when he was the Infantry Academy) on how to invade Portugal in 24 hours. So the intent to invade Portugal was there. Later, in 1975, he equated once again in invading Portugal. quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 If Spain refuses to join the Axis, would the Germans seek to occupy Portugal? We know Hitler was paranoid about his flanks and exposed coastline... If Spain was invaded by Germany, they would had also to invade Portugal or at least arrange a deal with Salazar that would permit fully access to the Portuguese mainland and to the wolfram mines. Was a deal possible when there was Windsor treaty? With a German invasion, this would force, most probably, the British to invade Azores islands. Would the Portuguese government then evacuate to the Azores, forming a government-in-exile? That's another possibility. quote: ORIGINAL: Zovs I always thought (but did not know) that the Portuguese were pro Allied all the way. Please note that the Portuguese regime was a fascist (some prefer just to call it as an authoritarian) regime. One of the fears of the regime, and the hopes of the democratic opposition, was if in the case the Allies won the war, this would put international pressure to end the dictatorship in Portugal. warspite1 More great value-add. Thanks VP.

RangerJoe -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/30/2020 1:10:30 PM)
Lisbon was a major spy center for both sides, as I recall. Nazi Germany had to make more munitions after France fell, stocks were depleted. So there would have been some ammo and toys like explosives to play with, but production needed to be expanded. Likewise, the production of medium tanks needed to be expanded since in the combat units the light tanks such as the Mark Is were going to be eliminated and the Mark II usage severely curtailed. The short barreled STUG III was just being introduced, the long barreled version came later. The Germans still depended a large part on the Czech tanks a year later. Truck production was messed up and should have been streamlined into just one model for military production for the various sizes like the US equivalent of the 1/4 ton Utility Truck, the 3/4 ton Pick-up, the Weapons Carrier, and the 2 1/2 ton truck where all manufacturers of military trucks would make the same design. My understanding is that this was not done during the war at all. Staff studies would have a lot to do with this, but Hitler would have the final say. He would also direct the planning and until Italy came in and France could be defeated, there would not be a lot of concrete steps to be taken anyway. Once Italy came in, Little Bennie wanted to show that Italy could play with the big boys and wanted to secure the Med for Italy, no help from Germany wanted or needed. At least, until Italy was spanked rather severely. I had already mentioned what an aggressive, maybe overly aggressive, Italian military could have tried. But until all the units that Germany wanted had been equipped plus what minor forces needed to be equipped since there was little to no more modern equipment produced in those countries, Italy could expect little assistance with German equipment for the Italian military. What Italy could have done would have been to consolidate new equipment requirements and production so there would be a commonality in parts and munitions, much like what Europe and NATO is doing today.

Piteas -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/30/2020 2:41:31 PM)
I think that Spain was unimportant in Hitler's plans. His dream and public wish was the East and its vast lands for german settlers. Spain was only interesting because of Gibraltar. Also, the interview with Franco in Hendaya was a disaster. Hitler did not like his excessive prudence and high demands. As he said: "With this guy I can't do anything" (in "Franco", Paul Preston). But neither with others, because Franco had no opposition among the spanish generals in 1940. The plan to conquer Gibraltar was delayed, delayed and... forgotten. After all, the Med was always an "italian zone" in the german strategy and it was not a priority in nazi ideology, because it was not their natural expansion area. Their obsession was the East. Although in 1942 Hitler thought of an invasion of Spain, but not clearly... Only a possible plan in a long list of ones against the allied expansion. Postdata: If you want to control the Iberian Peninsula, you have to conquer Portugal. Especially if you are at war with the UK. It's imperative, we the spaniards know it very well.

Curtis Lemay -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/30/2020 3:17:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Buckrock I can offer one bit of information that came from my suffering, the Brits rejected the idea of intervening militarily in the Iberian Peninsula if the Germans invaded there during this period, rejecting it both before and after BoB. As you suggested previously, their planning focus was instead on the taking of the Atlantic islands and possibly securing a lodgement in the Spanish territories in NW Africa (including Tangier and Ceuta). There was also a plan to operate the SOE in the Iberian Peninsula of course, as well as supplying weapons and equipment to any resistance groups that formed there (and assumedly after they promised to fight the Germans and not each other). Uh oh. Things are looking worse for the Spaniards.

Curtis Lemay -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/30/2020 3:19:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 What? How many ways can you interpret the quote from the US military study???? ....based upon the maps I've posted, it is clear that any claim that there is no path from Athens to the Albanian border except via Salonika if false. A blind man can see it - just not you...... warspite1 ......or the professional soldiers of the US Army. Which you've clearly taken an out-of-context snippet from. warspite1 ....and that comment comes from where? So exactly what was the context that I've missed here? Please tell? No one liners please, I want you to confirm exactly what I've missed. Secondly, I want you to confirm exactly how the maps you've produced show the US Army to be a bunch of idiots who can't spot something obvious on a WWII Atlas. Both maps I posted showed the Germans moving all over Greece, including crossing the spine of the central mountain range to the west coast, which is mostly flatland. They didn't have to go through Salonika to get there. And I'm not saying the US Army are idiots. I'm saying you took a snippet out of context.

warspite1 -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/30/2020 3:22:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay quote: ORIGINAL: Buckrock I can offer one bit of information that came from my suffering, the Brits rejected the idea of intervening militarily in the Iberian Peninsula if the Germans invaded there during this period, rejecting it both before and after BoB. As you suggested previously, their planning focus was instead on the taking of the Atlantic islands and possibly securing a lodgement in the Spanish territories in NW Africa (including Tangier and Ceuta). There was also a plan to operate the SOE in the Iberian Peninsula of course, as well as supplying weapons and equipment to any resistance groups that formed there (and assumedly after they promised to fight the Germans and not each other). Uh oh. Things are looking worse for the Spaniards. warspite1 Why? What did you think the British were going to do? You are the one that thinks they "need to be on the mainland" (I believe that was the quote or something very similar). I certainly don't. The only caveats to that are: a) Churchill may get carried away and decide help should be sent (a la Greece [8\|]) but I would like to think not - and even if he did, the practical help would be thankfully small out of necessity. But anyway, to believe he would do goes against your own argument i.e. that the threat of invasion would mean little or no help for Spain. You can't have it both ways but you seem to have taken Buckrock's comment as a positive without questioning what you yourself are arguing..... b) It may be prudent to send a small force into southern Spain just north of Gibraltar to 'prepare' a welcome pack for the Germans. Mines, booby traps, cratered approach roads, that sort of thing. A delaying force may then remain to meet the German advance guard at the end of their 1,200km march, but they would literally be that, with a view to retreating in good order back to The Rock. As said previously, British assistance on the mainland would be in the form of air cover, naval gunfire support and the provision of arms and equipment together with a sprinkle of SOE (to the extent available).

Curtis Lemay -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/30/2020 3:23:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 I am not sure if you believe what you are writing or just attention seeking. Genuinely, your comments are becoming so bizarre the more this goes on. a) where is the evidence that Britain were going to do that? Perhaps you think they possessed Iceland? or Crete? b) how many territories were possessed by Britain, France, America as they came back at the Germans in WWII? c) Every post you just make yourself look more and more 'limited' in your thinking, in your knowledge, in your analysis. So with 800 German aircraft in southern France, if Gibraltar is not going to be a viable port, why do you think Corunna or Cadiz or anywhere else on mainland Spain is going to be? I mean do you EVER bother to think anything through? I've not said that they were going to incorporate them into their national territories. But they won't get out if the Spanish demand it. That's what matters. Those planes were in France as well. The British still had to be on the mainland. They were not given access to FNA.

warspite1 -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/30/2020 3:31:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 What? How many ways can you interpret the quote from the US military study???? ....based upon the maps I've posted, it is clear that any claim that there is no path from Athens to the Albanian border except via Salonika if false. A blind man can see it - just not you...... warspite1 ......or the professional soldiers of the US Army. Which you've clearly taken an out-of-context snippet from. warspite1 ....and that comment comes from where? So exactly what was the context that I've missed here? Please tell? No one liners please, I want you to confirm exactly what I've missed. Secondly, I want you to confirm exactly how the maps you've produced show the US Army to be a bunch of idiots who can't spot something obvious on a WWII Atlas. Both maps I posted showed the Germans moving all over Greece, including crossing the spine of the central mountain range to the west coast, which is mostly flatland. They didn't have to go through Salonika to get there. And I'm not saying the US Army are idiots. I'm saying you took a snippet out of context. warspite1 I only recall one map and that showed the Germans, having taken Salonika, moving south across Greece. Don't know if you realise it but the German army marching south towards Athens, weren't actually supplied from Athens so not sure why this is relevant. The German forces in the mountains are not an entire army being supplied on a daily basis with all the provisions such an army requires. They are also moving fast against a collapsing enemy - these German units are largely pushing against an open door. The Greeks had already made overtures to the Germans. Had the Germans been able (or willing) to tell the Italians* to move away in Albania and to be replaced by German troops, its more than possible the Greeks would have surrendered. But Mussolini wouldn't countenance this and Hitler did not want to embarrass his ally. So all that proves absolutely nothing as regards to Athens being a supply source for the 2nd Greek Army and the fact that a German force can move south over a section of the mountain range, having been supplied from the east of their position. Now, second point, what is it you've seen that shows I've taken the study out of context? There is no merit in just saying I've taken something out of contest without actually evidencing what I've taken 'incorrectly'. I provided the quote previously and so I ask again, what is it I've misunderstood? Second Request for this explanation. * You see here is a perfect example of why you are so wrong about the Italians being happy to work for the Germans and the Germans being able to force the Italians to so things that were politically difficult.

RangerJoe -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/30/2020 3:32:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 What? How many ways can you interpret the quote from the US military study???? ....based upon the maps I've posted, it is clear that any claim that there is no path from Athens to the Albanian border except via Salonika if false. A blind man can see it - just not you...... warspite1 ......or the professional soldiers of the US Army. Which you've clearly taken an out-of-context snippet from. warspite1 ....and that comment comes from where? So exactly what was the context that I've missed here? Please tell? No one liners please, I want you to confirm exactly what I've missed. Secondly, I want you to confirm exactly how the maps you've produced show the US Army to be a bunch of idiots who can't spot something obvious on a WWII Atlas. Both maps I posted showed the Germans moving all over Greece, including crossing the spine of the central mountain range to the west coast, which is mostly flatland. They didn't have to go through Salonika to get there. And I'm not saying the US Army are idiots. I'm saying you took a snippet out of context. The Germans did not fight entrenched, determined soldiers and officers who knew the land that they grew up in. Most of the Greek Army was kicking the Italian Army out of Albania. You have repeatedly stated that people who design games to make money know more about things than the military and academic experts, that is calling them idiots. How much actual military experience have you had? BTW, have you gone to see your health care professionals for an adjustment, an increase, in you pharmaceuticals? Do you even bother to go to health care professionals? Or do you know more about the things that they have studied than they do? Or do you self medicate, whether or not you have someone stating that you actually need those pharmaceuticals?

warspite1 -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/30/2020 3:37:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 I am not sure if you believe what you are writing or just attention seeking. Genuinely, your comments are becoming so bizarre the more this goes on. a) where is the evidence that Britain were going to do that? Perhaps you think they possessed Iceland? or Crete? b) how many territories were possessed by Britain, France, America as they came back at the Germans in WWII? c) Every post you just make yourself look more and more 'limited' in your thinking, in your knowledge, in your analysis. So with 800 German aircraft in southern France, if Gibraltar is not going to be a viable port, why do you think Corunna or Cadiz or anywhere else on mainland Spain is going to be? I mean do you EVER bother to think anything through? I've not said that they were going to incorporate them into their national territories. But they won't get out if the Spanish demand it. That's what matters. Those planes were in France as well. The British still had to be on the mainland. They were not given access to FNA. warspite1 You said the British were going to possess the islands. But now you play word games with possession and incorporation???? What is the difference? Here's some of your quotes to help you: quote: They would possess them. And good luck to the Spanish getting them out. What is that possession or 'incorporation'? quote: I don't think Franco will agree to British possession of their colonies quote: And the British are taking possession of the Canaries, as I've made clear elsewhere. If the Spanish can't get them to leave, that's possession. .... or is that incorporation???? But regardless of the infantile word games, why would the Spanish demand the Royal Navy leave anyway? They will be happy for the Royal Navy to leave once the war is won - because that means Spain is no longer occupied by the Germans. In the absence of Gibraltar the Royal Navy need the Canaries. No idea what you are talking about the British being on the mainland. But I'm sure it means something to you, but if you mean British troops on the mainland (and that's not a likely scenario) wouldn't that mean possession so Franco won't let them in anyway? [:D] I still have no idea why you keep bringing French North Africa into the conversation.

Curtis Lemay -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/30/2020 3:41:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 Whoops Curtis Lemay's credibility has finally fallen through the floor..... You consistently credit me with saying things I haven't said. You are thoroughly dishonest. Where did you get that rail repair in impossible in Spain. No weasel words, or ignoring the post, please show me where I've said rail repair is impossible. Where did I say that you did? I posted a rhetorical question. Because you certainly were implying it. But, now it's clear, the Germans can repair the rail lines. quote: Again you use the most ridiculous of examples - North Africa - to try and make your case in Spain. Not only is it not a ridiculous example, it's the stake in the heart for the Spanish campaign. Rail repair isn't even necessary. North Africa proves it. quote: Minimum needs? For an entire army group.... erm..... To be fair, you obviously know more than the US Military and so I guess its only to be expected you know more than the logistics and supply guys that took the German army to the gates of Moscow and the Caucasus. No. I only need to know as much as the logistic guys that took the German army to Tobruk and El Alamein. Tripoli to Tobruk: 1257 km (and that's bypassing the Jabal Akhdar - using it totals 1450km). Tripoli to El Alamein: 1784 km. San Sebastian to Gibraltar: 1130 km - shorter that any route above. And nothing in Spain is further than that. [image]local://upfiles/14086/99D2AF61700F4992970E6E01182157A0.jpg[/image] [image]local://upfiles/14086/6F09F9DD7568441A8810EA213878A3D4.jpg[/image] [image]local://upfiles/14086/F983C9073EF548BBA994E1B74F5C0904.jpg[/image]

Curtis Lemay -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/30/2020 3:48:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay Divisions have their own supply assets built in. So, the more divisions in a force, the more supply assets, including trucks. Plus, there will be more than an army group sitting on its hands on the channel. Their truck needs will be greatly reduced, allowing loans to the forces in Spain. warspite1 Ah okay I get you. So its better from a supply perspective for Germany to have 5 divisions in Spain than 1 or 10 rather than 5 or 50 rather than 10 - because that eases the supply situation. Gotcha. Great point. No. You didn't even come close to "getting" me: The Germans will have trucks in proportion to their force size. Plus more than that due to the forces that are cooling their heels on the Channel. So, supplies arriving at the Spanish border will be delivered to the German forces in Spain at at least as plentifully as they were delivered to the German forces at Tobruk and El Alamein. And that's without any rail repair.

warspite1 -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/30/2020 3:49:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 Whoops Curtis Lemay's credibility has finally fallen through the floor..... You consistently credit me with saying things I haven't said. You are thoroughly dishonest. Where did you get that rail repair in impossible in Spain. No weasel words, or ignoring the post, please show me where I've said rail repair is impossible. Where did I say that you did? I posted a rhetorical question. Because you certainly were implying it. But, now it's clear, the Germans can repair the rail lines. warspite1 There you go. quote: So, are you now saying that rail repair is somehow impossible in Spain? Now, please show me where I even implied rail repair was impossible. Second request

Curtis Lemay -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/30/2020 3:50:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 So, here is the scenario (and remember, no one is talking about possession of the islands by the British despite your unsubtle and frankly disgusting attempt to put words in my mouth). The Germans have just back-stabbed their allies the Spanish by invading them, an act which - never mind the treachery itself - will lead to starvation. The Germans are now killing Spaniards, bombing civilians, offering up the usual Nazi reprisals for any offence, etc etc - in short, all the hideousness of twentieth century warfare being meted out to the Spanish population. In response the British (with the US in the wings) are offering whole manner of rewards and as much assistance as they can provide. However they really need to be able to use the Canaries as a naval base because Gibraltar is about to be hors de combat. The use of the base not only helps the British but of course also allows some direct support for Spain. Now, despite the fact that everyone else who has expressed an opinion sees the nonsense of your view, you maintain that the Spanish would say no to the RN. And furthermore, you think that as a result of the British offering financial and material help in return for the use of the anchorage, the Spanish will not only say no [this is too funny] but in so doing, will actually switch sides and now be BFF's with the Germans who are busy invading their country and killing their citizens.... Let's see....The Romanians started out Axis...lost untold thousands to the Russians...were invaded by the Russians (with all the above carnage)...and finished the war on the side of...the Russians! Same for the Bulgarians. Weak countries bend with the wind. The wind, in 1940, blows from Germany. And it's even worse with Franco - he really has nowhere else to turn: The Western Democracies are not going to be his friends. And the British are taking possession of the Canaries, as I've made clear elsewhere. If the Spanish can't get them to leave, that's possession. warspite1 Well I guess you felt you had a couple of choices a) you could answer my point or b) you could talk about something totally irrelevant to try and disguise your complete lack of case. Romania and Bulgaria are exactly to the point. You claim that Spain wouldn't flip to the Axis side because of the casualties they would take in an invasion. Yet that's exactly what Romania and Bulgaria did, under the same circumstances (conquest).

warspite1 -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/30/2020 3:54:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay Not only is it not a ridiculous example, it's the stake in the heart for the Spanish campaign. Rail repair isn't even necessary. North Africa proves it. warspite1 How does North Africa prove anything about Spain? I mean: - the numbers of troops being supplied is massively different - not only are we talking about a whole army group in Spain, but also the make up of the army will be different (and more costly in terms of supply) than the DAK, which featured mostly understrength Italian units and only two panzer divisions for most of the time. - the terrain is vastly different (as noted and feared by the German planners the Spanish terrain is not vehicle friendly) - the hardware required (for Gibraltar) is different (I say again, how many artillery regiments are proposed for Gib? These need to be transported - along with all their ammunition to the south of Spain by road.....). - you've made great play of the North African supply and how that proves Spain is no problem. So how did the attempts to supply his forces work out for Rommel? - and of course, as Piteas points out later in this thread, the Germans in North Africa aren't travelling through territory where partisans and small groups of troops in mountains and villages can block and destroy convoys, fell bridges, collapse tunnels.

warspite1 -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/30/2020 3:57:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay No. I only need to know as much as the logistic guys that took the German army to Tobruk and El Alamein. Tripoli to Tobruk: 1257 km (and that's bypassing the Jabal Akhdar - using it totals 1450km). Tripoli to El Alamein: 1784 km. San Sebastian to Gibraltar: 1130 km - shorter that any route above. And nothing in Spain is further than that. [image]local://upfiles/14086/99D2AF61700F4992970E6E01182157A0.jpg[/image] There, I've just proved you are wrong. The Germans couldn't get supply to their forces west of El-Alamein as there were road works on the via Balbia. No wonder Rommel lost at El-Alamein..... [image]local://upfiles/14086/6F09F9DD7568441A8810EA213878A3D4.jpg[/image] [image]local://upfiles/14086/F983C9073EF548BBA994E1B74F5C0904.jpg[/image] warspite1 But you don't know what the logistics guys knew in North Africa. If you did you wouldn't use that as an example. If you cared what the logistics guys knew then you wouldn't ignore what the logistics guys said about undertaking operations in Spain. As per post 1013, what do these pretty pictures actually mean in terms of the argument you seek to make? You are ignoring so many variables and the only thing that matters apparently is distance. But distance is, in itself, just another problem for the Germans. In the western desert when travelling 1,000 miles each way, it was reckoned that some 35% of vehicles would be undergoing repair at any one time. Now, that is using the all weather via Balbia. Imagine then Spain, with (as the Germans put it) narrow, twisty roads, often in high mountain passes. Imagine what that would do to the suspension, wheels, tyres and engines? It was reckoned in North Africa, between one-third and one-half of the fuel delivered to North Africa was then expended in getting supplies to the front. Good job Axis oil supplies are plentiful.... oh no wait a minute.

Curtis Lemay -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/30/2020 3:57:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 So you still won't talk about your thoughts on a 'Vichy' Spain. Well, I'm still not doing your work for you and I'm still not answering your stupid questions I've told you my thoughts on Vichy: The rationale for the French was to preserve an enclave in France that wasn't German occupied. And I'll ask you again: Why would the Germans ever agree to stay out of Vichy if that wasn't the French purpose of Vichy? And I'm going to keep rubbing your nose in that till you answer, because there isn't any answer, except that that was the purpose of Vichy!!! quote: As for the rest of this post, sorry but it's just more of the same well worn, and frankly laughable nonsense. You talk of Spain getting a "very favourable deal" but have not the foggiest notion about which you talk. If Franco had got a "very favourable deal" he may well have joined Hitler. Hitler couldn't - never mind wouldn't - Hitler couldn't give Spain all that she needed. But now, according to you, Spain will get a "very favourable deal". Yes I guess if you count starvation, an even more wrecked economy, absolutely no access to oil, no Gibraltar, no Spanish Morocco and an occupied country a "very favourable deal" then I guess you have a point [8\|] What constitutes a favorable deal before invasion and what constitutes one after conquest are two different things. Once Spain is conquered, Franco would see a return to power as a very favorable deal. He certainly won't get it from the Allies.

warspite1 -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/30/2020 4:00:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay Divisions have their own supply assets built in. So, the more divisions in a force, the more supply assets, including trucks. Plus, there will be more than an army group sitting on its hands on the channel. Their truck needs will be greatly reduced, allowing loans to the forces in Spain. warspite1 Ah okay I get you. So its better from a supply perspective for Germany to have 5 divisions in Spain than 1 or 10 rather than 5 or 50 rather than 10 - because that eases the supply situation. Gotcha. Great point. No. You didn't even come close to "getting" me: The Germans will have trucks in proportion to their force size. Plus more than that due to the forces that are cooling their heels on the Channel. So, supplies arriving at the Spanish border will be delivered to the German forces in Spain at at least as plentifully as they were delivered to the German forces at Tobruk and El Alamein. And that's without any rail repair. warspite1 No I didn't get you, I was so thoroughly depressed with your answers yesterday I resorted to sarcasm. quote: So, supplies arriving at the Spanish border will be delivered to the German forces in Spain at at least as plentifully as they were delivered to the German forces at Tobruk and El Alamein. "At least as plentifully"?.... I am sure that will be of great comfort to the troops in Spain, just as it was to Rommel.....

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