RE: Search and max range

RE: Search and max range (Full Version)

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geofflambert -> RE: Search and max range (8/12/2020 4:42:13 PM)
I think its generally one pass in the am and maybe one in the pm as well. Having enough searchers will give you one pass in both the am and the pm. That's a simplification but games like this can't avoid some simplification. Also, some planes can also search at night, but they'll do one or the other not both. For instance, Kates can search at night but Jills can't, until you get the Jills that have radar. Why the designers decided Jills couldn't operate at night I know not. Some planes can do some things at night but not others that they normally can do during the day. Toggle the switch (if there's even a night option) and you'll see.

RangerJoe -> RE: Search and max range (8/12/2020 4:45:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thephalanx1453 quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe Count the total sorties by all other air units that day, subtract those from the total sorties on the intelligence screen and that will the the total sorties by that one air unit. Have fun doing so. Or just take the difference in missions flown by the pilots from one day to the next. Wait, so the multiple "passes" flown within a single air phase actually count as multiple missions flown by the pilot? Has anyone confirmed? I thought that the "passes" was simply an abstract detection chance multiplier (something like, 2.36, for example) based on speed/range/etc. Otherwise, there would be optimal ranges for each class of aircraft to do two passes, three passes, etc, and I don't see those anywhere. Something like "Mavis set to range 7 or below do three passes, 8-12 do two passes, etc" Well, look up the definition of "sorties" and the definition of "passes."

thephalanx1453 -> RE: Search and max range (8/12/2020 4:49:55 PM)
disregard

thephalanx1453 -> RE: Search and max range (8/12/2020 4:52:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thephalanx1453 quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe Count the total sorties by all other air units that day, subtract those from the total sorties on the intelligence screen and that will the the total sorties by that one air unit. Have fun doing so. Or just take the difference in missions flown by the pilots from one day to the next. Wait, so the multiple "passes" flown within a single air phase actually count as multiple missions flown by the pilot? Has anyone confirmed? I thought that the "passes" was simply an abstract detection chance multiplier (something like, 2.36, for example) based on speed/range/etc. Otherwise, there would be optimal ranges for each class of aircraft to do two passes, three passes, etc, and I don't see those anywhere. Something like "Mavis set to range 7 or below do three passes, 8-12 do two passes, etc" Actually, just done a test. It seems that it's an abstract modifier after all. A single plane searching will always have 2 sorties (1 morning 1 afternoon) barring unforeseen circumstances, regardless of the max range set.

RangerJoe -> RE: Search and max range (8/12/2020 4:53:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thephalanx1453 quote: ORIGINAL: thephalanx1453 quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe Count the total sorties by all other air units that day, subtract those from the total sorties on the intelligence screen and that will the the total sorties by that one air unit. Have fun doing so. Or just take the difference in missions flown by the pilots from one day to the next. Wait, so the multiple "passes" flown within a single air phase actually count as multiple missions flown by the pilot? Has anyone confirmed? I thought that the "passes" was simply an abstract detection chance multiplier (something like, 2.36, for example) based on speed/range/etc. Otherwise, there would be optimal ranges for each class of aircraft to do two passes, three passes, etc, and I don't see those anywhere. Something like "Mavis set to range 7 or below do three passes, 8-12 do two passes, etc" Actually, just done a test. It seems that it's an abstract modifier after all. A single plane searching will always have 2 sorties (1 morning 1 afternoon) barring unforeseen circumstances, regardless of the max range set. That is not true. How long does it take for a Mavis to fly 25 hexes and return?

BBfanboy -> RE: Search and max range (8/12/2020 4:56:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe quote: ORIGINAL: thephalanx1453 quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe Count the total sorties by all other air units that day, subtract those from the total sorties on the intelligence screen and that will the the total sorties by that one air unit. Have fun doing so. Or just take the difference in missions flown by the pilots from one day to the next. Wait, so the multiple "passes" flown within a single air phase actually count as multiple missions flown by the pilot? Has anyone confirmed? I thought that the "passes" was simply an abstract detection chance multiplier (something like, 2.36, for example) based on speed/range/etc. Otherwise, there would be optimal ranges for each class of aircraft to do two passes, three passes, etc, and I don't see those anywhere. Something like "Mavis set to range 7 or below do three passes, 8-12 do two passes, etc" Well, look up the definition of "sorties" and the definition of "passes." One aircraft will fly one 10º arc once each phase. Each aircraft in the squadron will normally only fly ONE sortie during the turn, unless: - the distance is quite short (but the aircraft might search the short wedge more intensively to use its fuel instead of making one pass and returning immediately) - the squadron pilots are highly experienced - there is a positive die roll. Look at fatigue levels for aircraft and pilots to see how much flying was done. If you set search arcs and there are more aircraft in the squadron than required to send one aircraft per segment per phase, the rest will be available for training or rest/repair. E.G. if you have a squadron of 12 aircraft and assign naval search for two 10º arcs, four aircraft and pilots will be assigned for the whole turn. That leaves eight aircraft that you can assign other secondary missions. If you assign ASW, arcs are already set for NavS, so they ASW will presumably take place on those arcs. If you assign training, the pilots might fly the same range as the search and thus put more wear and tear on the aircraft (but perhaps gain more experience too). Check the plane fatigue to see if it would be best to let them stay idle and repairing.

thephalanx1453 -> RE: Search and max range (8/12/2020 4:58:30 PM)
quote: That is not true. How long does it take for a Mavis to fly 25 hexes and return? ~~Actually I did see multiple sorties per phase from short ranged planes. Jakes for example will do 4 sorties per day, 2 per phase, at its max range of 10. Now to test all the planes~~ EDIT: made a mistake here. It's actually always 2 sorties. When 20% of 9 planes fly, the arc graphic makes it seem like only 1 plane is flying (1 morning arc 1 afternoon arc), but in fact 2 planes are flying which produced the 4 sorties. When I turn it down to 10%, the image of the arc stays the same, but 2 sorties are produced. In conclusion, no matter how fast and how short-ranged the plane is, only 2 sorties are always counted by the game. Therefore I suspect the "number of passes" is simply an abstract modifier instead an actual integer.

RangerJoe -> RE: Search and max range (8/12/2020 5:08:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thephalanx1453 quote: That is not true. How long does it take for a Mavis to fly 25 hexes and return? Actually I did see multiple sorties per phase from short ranged planes. Jakes for example will do 4 sorties per day, 2 per phase, at its max range of 10. Now to test all the planes But you did not answer the question that I asked, you diverted to something that I did not ask.

thephalanx1453 -> RE: Search and max range (8/12/2020 5:12:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe How long does it take for a Mavis to fly 25 hexes and return? Mavis has extended radius of 985 miles. 985*2/138mph=14.3 hours. In the game it takes it the same amount of time as any other aircraft. One morning (or afternoon) phase.

thephalanx1453 -> RE: Search and max range (8/12/2020 5:12:33 PM)
disregard

geofflambert -> RE: Search and max range (8/12/2020 5:29:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thephalanx1453 quote: ORIGINAL: thephalanx1453 quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe Count the total sorties by all other air units that day, subtract those from the total sorties on the intelligence screen and that will the the total sorties by that one air unit. Have fun doing so. Or just take the difference in missions flown by the pilots from one day to the next. Wait, so the multiple "passes" flown within a single air phase actually count as multiple missions flown by the pilot? Has anyone confirmed? I thought that the "passes" was simply an abstract detection chance multiplier (something like, 2.36, for example) based on speed/range/etc. Otherwise, there would be optimal ranges for each class of aircraft to do two passes, three passes, etc, and I don't see those anywhere. Something like "Mavis set to range 7 or below do three passes, 8-12 do two passes, etc" Actually, just done a test. It seems that it's an abstract modifier after all. A single plane searching will always have 2 sorties (1 morning 1 afternoon) barring unforeseen circumstances, regardless of the max range set. However, the search area you designate will be searched once, given you have enough planes, and some additional 10 degree zones will be searched a second time, beginning with the first wedge you designate (the first on the left if you order clockwise, or the right if you order counter clockwise.

thephalanx1453 -> RE: Search and max range (8/12/2020 5:34:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: geofflambert However, the search area you designate will be searched once, given you have enough planes, and some additional 10 degree zones will be searched a second time, beginning with the first wedge you designate (the first on the left if you order clockwise, or the right if you order counter clockwise. Thanks, but the topic was on the basic scenario of one plane searching a single 10 degree arc during one air phase, if that wasn't clear. Within those parameters, it seems that 1. Absolute range of the search matters instead of ratio of set range/max range, when it comes to detection calculations. So a short-ranged plane will search better than a long-ranged plane, if each was set to its max range, and other factors being equal. 2. Plane will always do one sortie per phase (so two sorties per day) regardless of its speed and its searching range. 3. The concept of "passes" is abstracted, and represented in a bonus in detection based on the range of the search. If any of the above is incorrect please correct me.

Alfred -> RE: Search and max range (8/12/2020 6:01:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thephalanx1453 quote: ORIGINAL: Alfred That is not the question you asked, and no the manual is not outdated on this. You asked about two aircraft models, one with a 10 hex range, the other with 20 hexes. Both set to search only out to 10 hexes, ceteris paribus, they have the same chance. The longer legged plane is not superior to the shorter legged plane. Of course in AE ceteris paribus would not apply in practice as there will be some difference somewhere. Suggest you search for my posts on the subject. Alfred If quote: ORIGINAL: Alfred The 20 hex range aircraft has the same chance of detecting something within 10 hexes irrespective of whether its search range is limited to 10 hexes or 20 hexes. Alfred then chance to detect of "range 20 plane" set to search out to 20 = chance to detect of "range 10 plane" searching out to 10, and chance to detect of "range 20 plane" set to search out to 10 = chance to detect of "range 10 plane" searching out to 10 then chance to detect of "range 20 plane" set to search out to 20 = chance to detect of "range 20 plane" set to search out to 10 Which contradicts the manual, page 151, "Setting the max range to a lower range than the full extended range will improve the chance to detect", which means that according to the manual, chance to detect of "range 20 plane" set to search out to 20 < chance to detect of "range 20 plane" set to search out to 10 To put it in another way, like the post above asked. Is the chance to detect linked to the absolute range of the mission, or to ratio of (max range set by the player/full extended range)? 1. Neither the manual nor myself are the ones being inconsistent. It would help if you actually read all the relevant references in the manual to naval searching, to provide context for what is written on page 151. Oh, and carefully read my response to your actual question 2. My answer clearly indicated that it isn't a relative issue when comparing two different aircraft models. You however seem quite incapable of dealing with an answer which doesn't fit your predetermined conclusion. Perhaps because the question you actually reduce to writing is not the question which resides in your mind. 3. Your other subsequent posts are introducing irrelevant ideas as to how the algorithms are written. You won't last long with AE if you can't cope with abstractions and demand precise, detailed knowledge of how the algorithms work. Hint, someone, for whom English is not their native language, has posted in this thread and drawn the correct conclusion. Alfred

thephalanx1453 -> RE: Search and max range (8/12/2020 6:06:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alfred The 20 hex range aircraft has the same chance of detecting something within 10 hexes irrespective of whether its search range is limited to 10 hexes or 20 hexes. Alfred I've read this answer many times, and it still contradicts with the manual and everything else you seem to have said. Maybe my English is bad. It's not my first language, after all.

Dili -> RE: Search and max range (8/12/2020 6:51:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thephalanx1453 quote: ORIGINAL: Alfred The 20 hex range aircraft has the same chance of detecting something within 10 hexes irrespective of whether its search range is limited to 10 hexes or 20 hexes. Alfred I've read this answer many times, and it still contradicts with the manual and everything else you seem to have said. Maybe my English is bad. It's not my first language, after all. Note that Alfred did not said "extended range" vs "not extended range". But since presumably an aircraft that has 10 search range is at extended range at 10 range and a 20 search range plane is not at 10 range typically in extended range, Alfred expression it appears to conflict with manual.

Ian R -> RE: Search and max range (8/13/2020 9:15:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thephalanx1453 quote: ORIGINAL: geofflambert Taken any two plane models, the potential range doesn't matter, the range you set matters. This is what I thought, however: quote: ORIGINAL: Alfred The 20 hex range aircraft has the same chance of detecting something within 10 hexes irrespective of whether its search range is limited to 10 hexes or 20 hexes. Alfred The above post says differently. No it doesn't. You said they are the same plane, ergo they have the same cruising speed.

Ambassador -> RE: Search and max range (8/13/2020 9:53:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ian R quote: ORIGINAL: thephalanx1453 quote: ORIGINAL: geofflambert Taken any two plane models, the potential range doesn't matter, the range you set matters. This is what I thought, however: quote: ORIGINAL: Alfred The 20 hex range aircraft has the same chance of detecting something within 10 hexes irrespective of whether its search range is limited to 10 hexes or 20 hexes. Alfred The above post says differently. No it doesn't. You said they are the same plane, ergo they have the same cruising speed. Cruising speed has an influence on detection chances ?

thephalanx1453 -> RE: Search and max range (8/13/2020 10:21:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ian R You said they are the same plane, ergo they have the same cruising speed. Right, so with everything else being identical, the 20 range plane set to 20 will have a worse chance to detect than a 10 range plane set to 10, correct? If I want the 20 range plane to do just as well as the 10 range plane, I need to limit it to range 10, right?

Lowpe -> RE: Search and max range (8/13/2020 11:16:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thephalanx1453 quote: ORIGINAL: Ian R You said they are the same plane, ergo they have the same cruising speed. Right, so with everything else being identical, the 20 range plane set to 20 will have a worse chance to detect than a 10 range plane set to 10, correct? If I want the 20 range plane to do just as well as the 10 range plane, I need to limit it to range 10, right? First point: No, maybe, yes -- because there are three possible search phases, AM and PM and Night plus other variables outside of your supposition that impact. 2nd Point: Broadly speaking, If the both ranges, 10 and 20 are extended range for each model, and 10 hexes is within the normal range of the 20 hex plane, then over time the 20 hex plane will be better at spotting task forces than the frame that is flying at extended ranges but not for the reason you are trying to conclude. I really don't understand your consternation. WITP AE is a complex game where it is very hard to say one trait trumps everything else.

Ambassador -> RE: Search and max range (8/13/2020 11:34:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lowpe [...] I really don't understand your consternation. I think what the OP is asking is really this : If a plane has a range (make it normal to avoid some complications) of 20, does it have better odds at detecting a TF, sitting in a hex at a distance of 1-10, if you limit the max range of the mission to 10, than if you keep a max range of 20 (barring any considerations of e.g. fatigue) ?

BBfanboy -> RE: Search and max range (8/13/2020 1:03:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ambassador quote: ORIGINAL: Lowpe [...] I really don't understand your consternation. I think what the OP is asking is really this : If a plane has a range (make it normal to avoid some complications) of 20, does it have better odds at detecting a TF, sitting in a hex at a distance of 1-10, if you limit the max range of the mission to 10, than if you keep a max range of 20 (barring any considerations of e.g. fatigue) ? That would depend on whether the aircraft with a range of 20 but a mission range of 10 stays in the search wedge and uses up its fuel or if it just goes out and back. From comments made here and the oblique manual reference, I infer that the aircraft does stay up and use its fuel searching its assigned sector. As for the fatigue - if the aircraft stays in the air longer than its normal range, I would expect fatigue to be part of the calculations of whether a successful contact is made. But weather is the most influential factor in most situations.

thephalanx1453 -> RE: Search and max range (8/14/2020 3:50:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lowpe quote: ORIGINAL: thephalanx1453 Right, so with everything else being identical, the 20 range plane set to 20 will have a worse chance to detect than a 10 range plane set to 10, correct? If I want the 20 range plane to do just as well as the 10 range plane, I need to limit it to range 10, right? First point: No, maybe, yes -- because there are three possible search phases, AM and PM and Night plus other variables outside of your supposition that impact. This scenario is for a single search phase, with all other variables being equal. 2nd Point: Broadly speaking, If the both ranges, 10 and 20 are extended range for each model, and 10 hexes is within the normal range of the 20 hex plane, then over time the 20 hex plane will be better at spotting task forces than the frame that is flying at extended ranges but not for the reason you are trying to conclude. Like I said, the only difference between the two models is the extended range. So both models would have the same normal range. For this example, let's say 10 hexes also. So the 10 hex plane is searching within its normal range, just like the 20 hex plane. What then? I really don't understand your consternation. WITP AE is a complex game where it is very hard to say one trait trumps everything else.

RangerJoe -> RE: Search and max range (8/14/2020 3:58:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thephalanx1453 quote: ORIGINAL: Lowpe quote: ORIGINAL: thephalanx1453 Right, so with everything else being identical, the 20 range plane set to 20 will have a worse chance to detect than a 10 range plane set to 10, correct? If I want the 20 range plane to do just as well as the 10 range plane, I need to limit it to range 10, right? First point: No, maybe, yes -- because there are three possible search phases, AM and PM and Night plus other variables outside of your supposition that impact. This scenario is for a single search phase, with all other variables being equal. 2nd Point: Broadly speaking, If the both ranges, 10 and 20 are extended range for each model, and 10 hexes is within the normal range of the 20 hex plane, then over time the 20 hex plane will be better at spotting task forces than the frame that is flying at extended ranges but not for the reason you are trying to conclude. Like I said, the only difference between the two models is the extended range. So both models would have the same normal range. For this example, let's say 10 hexes also. So the 10 hex plane is searching within its normal range, just like the 20 hex plane. What then? .

thephalanx1453 -> RE: Search and max range (8/14/2020 4:12:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lowpe I really don't understand your consternation. WITP AE is a complex game where it is very hard to say one trait trumps everything else. I'm not comparing the impact of one trait to the impact of another trait. What I'm basically asking is this: If I always set the max search range of a plane, let's say the Mavis, to 8. I never use the plane for anything other than Search, and I never set the range to beyond 8. Would it be the exact same thing for me, if I went into the scenario editor, and changed the Mavis stats into extended_range=8 and normal_range=8. Keep in mind that all other factors are equal. Would this modded Mavis be worse or equal to the old Mavis for the specific task of searching at a max range of 8?

RangerJoe -> RE: Search and max range (8/14/2020 4:28:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thephalanx1453 quote: ORIGINAL: Lowpe I really don't understand your consternation. WITP AE is a complex game where it is very hard to say one trait trumps everything else. I'm not comparing the impact of one trait to the impact of another trait. What I'm basically asking is this: If I always set the max search range of a plane, let's say the Mavis, to 8. I never use the plane for anything other than Search, and I never set the range to beyond 8. Would it be the exact same thing for me, if I went into the scenario editor, and changed the Mavis stats into extended_range=8 and normal_range=8. Keep in mind that all other factors are equal. Would this modded Mavis be worse or equal to the old Mavis for the specific task of searching at a max range of 8? .

Alfred -> RE: Search and max range (8/14/2020 7:53:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thephalanx1453 quote: ORIGINAL: Lowpe I really don't understand your consternation. WITP AE is a complex game where it is very hard to say one trait trumps everything else. I'm not comparing the impact of one trait to the impact of another trait. What I'm basically asking is this: If I always set the max search range of a plane, let's say the Mavis, to 8. I never use the plane for anything other than Search, and I never set the range to beyond 8. Would it be the exact same thing for me, if I went into the scenario editor, and changed the Mavis stats into extended_range=8 and normal_range=8. Keep in mind that all other factors are equal. Would this modded Mavis be worse or equal to the old Mavis for the specific task of searching at a max range of 8? This has been answered on more than one occasion. Just because you don't like the answer is no ground for repeating ad nauseam the same question. Considering the entire point of your repetitive posting, both here and in the modders sub-forum, is to assist you in creating your fantasy mod which will totally unbalance the game, why don't you just take the logical step and remove all submarines from your mod. Alfred

Ian R -> RE: Search and max range (8/14/2020 2:04:44 PM)
That modding thread appears to be locked. If the OP wants to downgrade the effectiveness of aircraft and submarines, then that can be done by editing devices, aircraft types, and submarine classes. Or, he could just procure a copy of Warplan Orange, and play that.

thephalanx1453 -> RE: Search and max range (8/14/2020 2:27:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alfred This has been answered on more than one occasion. Just because you don't like the answer is no ground for repeating ad nauseam the same question. I like the answer. I actually like the fact that short-ranged planes are equal to player-limited long ranged planes. I keep asking to clarify my question to newcomers to this thread. Considering the entire point of your repetitive posting, both here and in the modders sub-forum, is to assist you in creating your fantasy mod which will totally unbalance the game, why don't you just take the logical step and remove all submarines from your mod. I'd like to actually sink submarines, instead of not encountering them at all. Alfred

thephalanx1453 -> RE: Search and max range (8/14/2020 2:34:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ian R That modding thread appears to be locked. If the OP wants to downgrade the effectiveness of aircraft and submarines, then that can be done by editing devices, aircraft types, and submarine classes. Right, but that's the easy part. I'm trying to increase the chance of attacks being made, so it feels more natural and organic, instead of something like "depth charges now do 100000 damage and all sub torpedoes are duds". Or, he could just procure a copy of Warplan Orange, and play that. War plan orange is set in a period where subs and aircraft weren't that good. Instead, I prefer a mirror universe where subs and aircraft perform worse than they're expected to, with all the great powers going "Damn, we should've built more CAs and BBs, and focused more on perfecting battleline tactics, instead of building so many subs and land-based bombers", somewhat of an opposite to the real war.

Platoonist -> RE: Search and max range (8/14/2020 2:37:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thephalanx1453 I'd like to actually sink submarines, instead of not encountering them at all. You said in your ASW modding post that an increased sub kill rate feels more natural. Why do you feel submarines should be easy to kill? Even when the Allies were at the height of their ASW powers subs could be notoriously difficult to find, track or sink.

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