Judy or Grace (Full Version)

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RADM.Yamaguchi -> Judy or Grace (12/29/2020 12:42:01 AM)

Has anyone ever skipped the judy and just gone for the grace. i realize it's 2x250kg instead of 1x500kg or 1x800kg but i like the idea of having the torpedo option with the grace. besides the judy seems awfully fragile so far. The grace has better maneuverability and better durability. It doesn't matter what the load is if the plane can't get through.



mind_messing -> RE: Judy or Grace (12/29/2020 12:53:52 AM)

It's less the Judy being fragile and more that Allied flak is hard on dive bombers as the war progresses.

It's a mistake to skip the Judy IMO, as the Y4 is one of the few airframes to possess options to put serious hurt on battleships without making a torpedo attack.



jdsrae -> RE: Judy or Grace (12/29/2020 12:56:13 AM)

Not getting Judy will leave you with Vals for a long time, something like all of 1943.



RADM.Yamaguchi -> RE: Judy or Grace (12/29/2020 1:11:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jdsrae

Not getting Judy will leave you with Vals for a long time, something like all of 1943.

true jdsrae, i figure grace in 10/3/43 vs 2/1/43 for judy 3. judy 4 takes a while



RangerJoe -> RE: Judy or Grace (12/29/2020 1:44:53 AM)

You need the bigger "BOOM!" If you supersize your air units, have a decent amount of escorts, attack with multiple waves to tire out the enemy CAP, some bombers should make it through the enemy CAP.



rustysi -> RE: Judy or Grace (12/29/2020 4:44:51 AM)

Problem with going for the Grace is it leaves you with the Val for too long. You'll need the heavy weight of the Judy's bombs long before you get the Grace's torps.



Ambassador -> RE: Judy or Grace (12/29/2020 5:53:10 AM)

Second problem is that you have that torpedo option with the Grace. Have you tried torpedo attacks against late-war (or even mid-war) Allied flak ?[;)]

Look at the Netties : their durability is 35/36, yet they still get shot down quite a lot when facing CAP or decent flak. Even the Grace’s 30 is way lower.

And regarding Maneuver, remember that speed influences the actual agility, so the 2 more points of the Grace won’t dramatically improve survivability when the opposing fighters are way faster. Vals have way better Maneuver than either Judy or Grace, and a Durability between theirs, yet are killed in droves by the end of ‘42 or early ‘43. Grace won’t come before the Allied CAP uses F6F, yet you may field Judie’s when only F4F-4 are available - and those are slower than either a Judy or a Grace, leaving a sweet spot between the Judy’s arrival and the first Hellcats.

And finally, when not using the torpedo, being stuck with 2x250kg will see your attacks unable to penetrate a CA’s armored deck.



rustysi -> RE: Judy or Grace (12/29/2020 6:34:57 AM)

TBH. The Grace couldn't be loaded upon Japan CV's. They were too big to be brought down the elevators.



Alfred -> RE: Judy or Grace (12/29/2020 1:03:30 PM)

The OP has forgotten that the maximum number of torpedo sorties on a carrier is fixed. Replacing Val/Judy with Grace, whilst still retaining Kates on the carriers, won't see left over torpedo sorties for the Grace.

Alfred



Q-Ball -> RE: Judy or Grace (12/29/2020 2:19:33 PM)

To me the 2x 250kg is a deal breaker; you need something that can hurt a Battleship. For much the same reason, the VAL is a plane that needs to be replaced ASAP, and that means the D4Y1.

I would build D4Y1, but I also would research the D4Y4, with the 800kg BB-killer bomb

Another consideration: The Grace, while worth building, will be a strain to industry if you build in quantities you need for the whole IJN. The reason is engines; it uses the Ha-45, which has many demands on it from multiple models, while the D4Y3 and D4Y4 use the Ha-33, and engine that you will likely have some surplus of in late war, as you are no longer building alot of models that use the Ha-33



RADM.Yamaguchi -> RE: Judy or Grace (12/29/2020 3:00:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

The OP has forgotten that the maximum number of torpedo sorties on a carrier is fixed. Replacing Val/Judy with Grace, whilst still retaining Kates on the carriers, won't see left over torpedo sorties for the Grace.

Alfred

It's currently february of 1943 and all i have on all my cvs and cvls are b6n2s upsized to the torpedo carrying capacity and a6m5cs upsized to the cv capacity. No vals or judys.

I have all the vals and judys land based and they get destroyed pretty easily.

i was thinking of basing all my jills on land and having solely graces on cvs in a dual role depending on conditions.



RADM.Yamaguchi -> RE: Judy or Grace (12/29/2020 3:03:32 PM)

i was just wondering if anybody had real game experience where both judys and graces are attacking and they could confirm that the judys get knocked down in larger numbers that would be enough to justify the lighter load of the grace.

i've read some aars where that appears to be the case but i can't be sure



mind_messing -> RE: Judy or Grace (12/29/2020 3:17:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RADM.Yamaguchi

i was just wondering if anybody had real game experience where both judys and graces are attacking and they could confirm that the judys get knocked down in larger numbers that would be enough to justify the lighter load of the grace.

i've read some aars where that appears to be the case but i can't be sure


Again, this conception is less due to the comparative stats of the Judy versus the Grace and more down to the overwhelming strength of Allied flak.

The difference between the two models is so slight that I doubt you'd see much difference in losses on a macro level, let alone anything smaller.



RADM.Yamaguchi -> RE: Judy or Grace (12/29/2020 3:35:17 PM)

Thanks MM. That's what i was looking for. I'm sure you have had real experience.



Dili -> RE: Judy or Grace (12/29/2020 3:43:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

TBH. The Grace couldn't be loaded upon Japan CV's. They were too big to be brought down the elevators.


At least Taiho, Shinano, Ikoma class and Ibuki could. It is unclear if the Ikoma modification was extended to earlier Unryu class.



AtParmentier -> RE: Judy or Grace (12/29/2020 4:04:12 PM)

Not sure about the ability of the elevators being able to move the B7A, but the dimentions of the B7A with folded wings is a bit less than 11.5m by 8m.
The smallest elevators (2) on Shokaku-class were 13 by 12m, the largest elevator was 13 by 16m. Going by dimensions the Shokaku-class should have been able to use the B7A, other elements are harder to come by. The height and weight would probably be more important, however hangar height was 4.8m vs Taiho 5m.

Taiho had 2 elevators, one was 14 by 13.6 and the other was 14 by 14m.

Akagi had 3 elevators one at 11.8 x 16.0m, a middle one at 11.8 x 13.0m and an aft one at 12.8 x 8.4m. Here I see issues, but the plane can still fit most elevators. Depending on the ability to turn the aircraft on deck and in the hangars. B7A wouldn't be efficient here, and can't maybe be used.

Kaga had 3 elevators their dimensions were 11.5 by 12.0m, 10.7 by 15.9m and 12.8 by 9.9m. Same issue as with Akagi, going by sizes the elevators should be able to handle the B7A, however not efficiently.

Soryu's elevators are 11.5 x 16.0m, 11.5 x 12.0m and 11.8 x 10.0m. Depending on willingness and ability to turn aircraft in the hangar, the B7A might be able to be operated on this carrier. Of the carriers shown so far, the least able.

Hiryu's elevators are suprisingly big compared to soryu at 13.0 x 16.0m, 13.0 x 12.0m and 11.8 x 13.0m. Only 1 elevator might have issues around the size of the aircraft.

Shinano's two elevators were 15.0 x 14.0m and 13.0 x 13.0m. No issues here.

The Unryu-class had 2 elevators at 15.0 x 14.0m. No issues here.


Now the CVL's,
Ryuho had 2 elevators at 13.6 x 12.0m, these are large enough.

Zuiho had 2 elevators at 13.0 x 12.0m and 12.0 x 10.8m, one elevator is a tight fit, the other has no problem.

Ryujo had 2 elevators at 11.1 x 15.7m and 10.8 x 8.0m, one elevator is too small, the other might be able to carry the B7A.

Chitose had 2 elevators at 13.0 x 12.0m and 12.5 x 12.0m, large enough.

Ibuki had 2 elevators at 13.0 x 11.6m, large enough.


Based upon these numbers the B7A could be used on Hiryu, the Shokaku-class, Taiho, Shinano, the Unryu-class, the Ryuho, the Zuiho-class, the Chitose-class and Ibuki.
The ships where it would be difficult to impossible to use the B7A would be the Akagi, Kaga, Soryu and Ryujo.

This is just based on the elevator sizes, their max load isn't taken into account. The plane had a height of less than 4.10m, even with folded wings. All the numbers I could find leave at least 0.20m of height above the plane, for the CVL's I'm not sure of the heights.
I do apologize for not putting US conversions into my post.



RangerJoe -> RE: Judy or Grace (12/29/2020 4:16:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AtParmentier

Not sure about the ability of the elevators being able to move the B7A, but the dimentions of the B7A with folded wings is a bit less than 11.5m by 8m.
The smallest elevators (2) on Shokaku-class were 13 by 12m, the largest elevator was 13 by 16m. Going by dimensions the Shokaku-class should have been able to use the B7A, other elements are harder to come by. The height and weight would probably be more important, however hangar height was 4.8m vs Taiho 5m.

Taiho had 2 elevators, one was 14 by 13.6 and the other was 14 by 14m.

Akagi had 3 elevators one at 11.8 x 16.0m, a middle one at 11.8 x 13.0m and an aft one at 12.8 x 8.4m. Here I see issues, but the plane can still fit most elevators. Depending on the ability to turn the aircraft on deck and in the hangars. B7A wouldn't be efficient here, and can't maybe be used.

Kaga had 3 elevators their dimensions were 11.5 by 12.0m, 10.7 by 15.9m and 12.8 by 9.9m. Same issue as with Akagi, going by sizes the elevators should be able to handle the B7A, however not efficiently.

Soryu's elevators are 11.5 x 16.0m, 11.5 x 12.0m and 11.8 x 10.0m. Depending on willingness and ability to turn aircraft in the hangar, the B7A might be able to be operated on this carrier. Of the carriers shown so far, the least able.

Hiryu's elevators are suprisingly big compared to soryu at 13.0 x 16.0m, 13.0 x 12.0m and 11.8 x 13.0m. Only 1 elevator might have issues around the size of the aircraft.

Shinano's two elevators were 15.0 x 14.0m and 13.0 x 13.0m. No issues here.

The Unryu-class had 2 elevators at 15.0 x 14.0m. No issues here.


Now the CVL's,
Ryuho had 2 elevators at 13.6 x 12.0m, these are large enough.

Zuiho had 2 elevators at 13.0 x 12.0m and 12.0 x 10.8m, one elevator is a tight fit, the other has no problem.

Ryujo had 2 elevators at 11.1 x 15.7m and 10.8 x 8.0m, one elevator is too small, the other might be able to carry the B7A.

Chitose had 2 elevators at 13.0 x 12.0m and 12.5 x 12.0m, large enough.

Ibuki had 2 elevators at 13.0 x 11.6m, large enough.


Based upon these numbers the B7A could be used on Hiryu, the Shokaku-class, Taiho, Shinano, the Unryu-class, the Ryuho, the Zuiho-class, the Chitose-class and Ibuki.
The ships where it would be difficult to impossible to use the B7A would be the Akagi, Kaga, Soryu and Ryujo.

This is just based on the elevator sizes, their max load isn't taken into account. The plane had a height of less than 4.10m, even with folded wings. All the numbers I could find leave at least 0.20m of height above the plane, for the CVL's I'm not sure of the heights.
I do apologize for not putting US conversions into my post.


Thank you for that.

No problems for the conversions for me. Besides, given that all of the dimensions are using the same system it is easily understandable.

But any elevators that had problems with the Grace could have been used for other aircraft especially if they took off first.



Psaeko -> RE: Judy or Grace (12/29/2020 4:27:35 PM)

That said, in game all aircraft are considered the same so no issues loading large late-war carrier planes on smaller carriers or fitting a floatplane that's not a Glen or a Seiran on a sub.



RangerJoe -> RE: Judy or Grace (12/29/2020 4:51:18 PM)

But going back to the important question of Judy or Grace. I would rather have a Grace Kelly than a Judy Garland! [:D]



AtParmentier -> RE: Judy or Grace (12/29/2020 4:52:09 PM)

Haven't done full research, but it seems that the B7A is more space efficient than the D4Y.
The Judy seems to not have folding wings, which would mean a wingspan of 11,5m vs 8m stored. This would mean that several carriers would be able to put 2 B7A next to each other compared to only 1 Judy. Lenght wise 1m would be lost per plane compared to the Judy.

Looked into the CVE's and it seems that the elevators for Taiyo-class, Shinyo and Kayo were 12 x 13m, not sure if 0.5m (1 foot 7 inches)is enough wiggle room, length and speed of the CVE would be more important.
Forgot Junyo in my list elevators: 14.0 x 14.0m, speed might be a concern.


As for skipping the Judy:
The Judy 4 does the most damage of any dive bomber when using bombs, the B7A unfortunately doesn't drop 800kg bombs when out of torps (unless port strike with good enough exp) In scenarios where the load out is set per mission, the B7A could get better naval divebombing capabilities. Getting rid of the Val is important.



Dili -> RE: Judy or Grace (12/29/2020 7:22:06 PM)

Some of us do house rules regarding this :)

CVE's some of them at least have the added problem of short runway, while Shinyo had a 180m length - it could operate Zeros and Jill and probably D4Y. Hosho also when upgraded with a lengthier flight deck from 1944. Taiyos instead had only 150m it could operate B5N, but not others.
In my post above my more restricted list is based on data collected about carriers, some with a real complement of B7 Grace listed. Ibuki was supposed to get 12, Ikoma an Unryu evolution was to get 27, but the complement seems to be a very large bomber complement contrary to post Midway practice of increasing the fighter complement.



geofflambert -> RE: Judy or Grace (12/30/2020 12:17:43 AM)

One consideration is that it will take a while to have enough aircrews trained in both bombing and torpedoing and search and ASW to take full advantage of the Grace. But that extra range is awfully desirable. Another way to look at it, though, is Grace vs. Jill vs. Kate. Kates can search at night but Jills can't until you get the 2a with radar. Graces can't search at night at all. I believe searching at night becomes more and more important the later in the war it is. Yet another consideration is that no matter what you build they're not all going to be used on carriers and the Grace is just too darned versatile not to make a lot of them. They're a heck of a lot better than Lillies, too.



geofflambert -> RE: Judy or Grace (12/30/2020 12:27:28 AM)

Another thing. Sinking CAs and BBs will be expensive and won't win the war. Sinking troop ships with troops aboard and CV/CVEs is much more important. Those 250kg dings will add up to some serious repair yard time for CAs and BBs, anyway.



RADM.Yamaguchi -> RE: Judy or Grace (12/30/2020 1:12:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Another thing. Sinking CAs and BBs will be expensive and won't win the war. Sinking troop ships with troops aboard and CV/CVEs is much more important. Those 250kg dings will add up to some serious repair yard time for CAs and BBs, anyway.

Geoff you make some great points there. and the extra range. i've been lucky in my game so far and have sunk (FOW) 6 CVs, 13 BBs and 12 CAs and Vals/Judys had no role in the sinkings.

I kind of like having my 34knt CVs in a TF with 35knt CAs and 38knt DDs making 14 hexes a day with torpedo striking power of 10 hexes more and bomb striking power of 12/13 more. That's a pretty good reach right now.



geofflambert -> RE: Judy or Grace (12/30/2020 1:45:59 AM)

Speaking of torpedo planes, visa vie Grace, well ...

If you flew, Peggy (T)oo
Then you'd know what I know too
Oh Peggy, my Peggy (T)oo
Oh though I love you Grace
Tor-pe-dos go with Peggy (T)oo



rustysi -> RE: Judy or Grace (12/30/2020 1:58:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Speaking of torpedo planes, visa vie Grace, well ...

If you flew, Peggy (T)oo
Then you'd know what I know too
Oh Peggy, my Peggy (T)oo
Oh though I love you Grace
Tor-pe-dos go with Peggy (T)oo


[8|]



RangerJoe -> RE: Judy or Grace (12/30/2020 2:11:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RADM.Yamaguchi


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Another thing. Sinking CAs and BBs will be expensive and won't win the war. Sinking troop ships with troops aboard and CV/CVEs is much more important. Those 250kg dings will add up to some serious repair yard time for CAs and BBs, anyway.

Geoff you make some great points there. and the extra range. i've been lucky in my game so far and have sunk (FOW) 6 CVs, 13 BBs and 12 CAs and Vals/Judys had no role in the sinkings.

I kind of like having my 34knt CVs in a TF with 35knt CAs and 38knt DDs making 14 hexes a day with torpedo striking power of 10 hexes more and bomb striking power of 12/13 more. That's a pretty good reach right now.


You do know that some people like to have it nice and slow, they don't like it when a man is too quick.



geofflambert -> RE: Judy or Grace (12/30/2020 2:20:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

But going back to the important question of Judy or Grace. I would rather have a Grace Kelly than a Judy Garland! [:D]


But ...

Oh Joey Boy, the pipes the pipes are callin'
From Glen to Glen, and Alf and Dave and Pete.


Judy had some pipes, best until Linda R.



RangerJoe -> RE: Judy or Grace (12/30/2020 3:04:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

But going back to the important question of Judy or Grace. I would rather have a Grace Kelly than a Judy Garland! [:D]


But ...

Oh Joey Boy, the pipes the pipes are callin'
From Glen to Glen, and Alf and Dave and Pete.


Judy had some pipes, best until Linda R.


Yes,Judy had pipes. But she said "There is no place like home!" but never went back to her hometown.

But Princess Grace had CLASS!



Alfred -> RE: Judy or Grace (12/30/2020 4:19:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert


... Judy had some pipes, best until Linda R.


Depends on the criteria applied.

In that time frame, plenty of votes would be directed to:

Doris Day
Ella Fitzgerald
Edith Piaf


Not forgetting

Billie Holiday
and the underrated Julie London

Alfred



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