Seeking advice on how to use FBs effectively

Seeking advice on how to use FBs effectively (Full Version)

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Randy Stead -> Seeking advice on how to use FBs effectively (1/25/2021 12:11:00 AM)
I have learned how to get medium and heavy bombers to raid, but have never had FB [fighter bombers] attack anything to date. Mostly I have been using them for training squadrons. At Port Moresby I have some Wirraways and Airacobras. I'd like to be able to use them to do naval attacks on IJN ships making supply runs into Buna. I had great luck with my carriers, which sank an entire convoy of 5-6 Marus and a gunboat escort. Now they seem to be trying to sneak in destroyers and I would like to be able to take a whack at them. With the number of fighter bombers I have on New Guinea I would hope to do some damage and get my boys blooded. Any advice? I don't know how to set their altitude to get the best performance out of them but also not get them massacred by flak by inputting the wrong settings. In the meantime, off to dinner and then to grab the manual and binder again. So much to learn in this game...

RangerJoe -> RE: Seeking advice on how to use FBs effectively (1/25/2021 12:22:32 AM)
Train them in escort, then in strafe and low Naval. Do not use them to bomb troops, especially if light AAA is there. The setting should be Naval Attack with NO drop tanks, at 100 feet. P-39s do work nice on CAP with a higher altitude setting to get the dive on Japanese aircraft. One hit with the cannon . . . [:D]

Randy Stead -> RE: Seeking advice on how to use FBs effectively (1/25/2021 12:31:23 AM)
Right now I have some Kittyhawks over PM. I set them to flying CAP. I've got two units of Airacobras doing half CAP, half training. I'd like to get them into some action. So... naval attack, 100', no drop tanks [for obvious reasons]. I know the Red Army loved them for ground support work. What is that main gun, a 37mm my offhand memory says. Quite effective at shooting up Wehrmacht vehicles, even troop cover.

RangerJoe -> RE: Seeking advice on how to use FBs effectively (1/25/2021 12:42:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Randy Stead Right now I have some Kittyhawks over PM. I set them to flying CAP. I've got two units of Airacobras doing half CAP, half training. I'd like to get them into some action. So... naval attack, 100', no drop tanks [for obvious reasons]. I know the Red Army loved them for ground support work. What is that main gun, a 37mm my offhand memory says. Quite effective at shooting up Wehrmacht vehicles, even troop cover. But the Soviets used them as fighters, escorting bombers. At low levels, they were equal to the Me-109. The "ground support" role was a misstranslation although they would attack ground targets.

Ian R -> RE: Seeking advice on how to use FBs effectively (1/25/2021 1:20:11 AM)
If the AI is sending DDs, that is most likely fast transport TF runs. The SOP for these in the game is they time their run in to arrive at night, off load (usually a small load so takes limited time), and then bugger off before morning at speed, with the idea of getting out from under your air umbrella before the sun comes up. This is probably why you aren't catching them. Try parking some radar equipped subs off Buna to (possibly) slow them down and screw up their timetable, and make sure your fighter bombers can get past Buna and into the sea area beyond. Better still, put some 2E bombers on the job. [ Later in the game, circa 1944, the USN has a bunch of APDs - these are very useful formed into a fast transport TF in assisting atoll invasions, because they drop supplies direct to the marines as they unload on target. However, I limit them to cruise speed, because they, and bombardment TFs running in an out of target hexes at night at flank speed, acquire major engine damage quite rapidly.]

Randy Stead -> RE: Seeking advice on how to use FBs effectively (1/25/2021 3:16:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe quote: ORIGINAL: Randy Stead Right now I have some Kittyhawks over PM. I set them to flying CAP. I've got two units of Airacobras doing half CAP, half training. I'd like to get them into some action. So... naval attack, 100', no drop tanks [for obvious reasons]. I know the Red Army loved them for ground support work. What is that main gun, a 37mm my offhand memory says. Quite effective at shooting up Wehrmacht vehicles, even troop cover. But the Soviets used them as fighters, escorting bombers. At low levels, they were equal to the Me-109. The "ground support" role was a misstranslation although they would attack ground targets. If they were escorting Il-2 and PE-2 units, that's where'd they be, down low. Good advice, Ian. I shall give it a go when I load the game tomorrow. I moved my B-26 units over to Charters Towers and Rockhampton to get them out of the front line while they train and to ease the supply burden at Port Moresby. I guess I'll have to bring them back. I've got the supply situation improving quickly at PM. Should I give the B-26s the same orders, come in low at 100'?

Ian R -> RE: Seeking advice on how to use FBs effectively (1/25/2021 3:45:15 AM)
No, bomb at 1000 feet - B26's don't have multi-MG strafing gun packs like B25s. The bomb load will be halved, but the accuracy goes up. B-26s are better suited to bombing airbases and port facilities. Which reminds me - if you damage Buna port, that will also slow down the fast transport runs.

Randy Stead -> RE: Seeking advice on how to use FBs effectively (1/25/2021 4:00:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ian R No, bomb at 1000 feet - B26's don't have multi-MG strafing gun packs like B25s. The bomb load will be halved, but the accuracy goes up. B-26s are better suited to bombing airbases and port facilities. Which reminds me - if you damage Buna port, that will also slow down the fast transport runs. Solid advice, Ian. Thanks a million. It's about midnight now, so I will make this my last post of the day. I'll report back tomorrow, or later, whenever I see my first 2-E and FB attacks occur. I think when people take the time to give you advice and reply to your questions, you owe them a report later.

Yaab -> RE: Seeking advice on how to use FBs effectively (1/25/2021 6:46:05 AM)
Well, strafing ships works well if you can strafe an xAK/xAP ship loaded with troops. You can disable, and even destroy, loaded devices this way. If you want to sink xAK/xAP then don't bother strafing them, even with 20/37mm cannons. The ships can soak a HUGE number of 20/37mm round hits. What sinks ships is bombs. Check if your Wirraway in Guadalcanal scenario has bombs for its reduced load, since in stock scen001 it had zero bombs for its reduced load. One more thing. Japanese 7.7mm AAMGs can destroy OUTRIGHT any aircraft with less then 35 durability. If you have FB with durability =>35 like Beaufighter, it will survive 7.7mm AAMG fire and return damaged from a mission, but not destroyed. Warhawks, Airacobras, Havocs - they all can be killed by 7.7mm AAMG fire. This is important if you want to strafe Japanese LCUs. Hope it helps.

Macclan5 -> RE: Seeking advice on how to use FBs effectively (1/25/2021 3:06:30 PM)
Further to Yaabs and other excellent comments above. If in a game verses the AI - my personal but anecdotal experience is. (i) A number of P39 squadrons >> USA 2nd AF Fighter Command (5th AF >> SWest Pac) show up early in game. Train them up in Los Angles >> Noumea >> Suva >> Nndei as Naval Attack - 5000 alt - I leave the locations to you but I obviously try to 'get them to forward bases' as soon as I can safely do so. It is my anecdotal experience that they fly well off newly captured bases attacking IJN shipping xAP and xAK. Guadalcanal / Munda / Shortlands - before you get your full engineer support compliment there and develop the bases for maximum effectiveness. They fly off level 1/2 airbases and you can flip between CAP and Naval attack. They have sunk and damaged a number of ships leaving / supplying / counter invading in my limited experience in the Coral Sea operations. I have had little or no luck using them to dive bomb troops with effectiveness. (ii) Wirraways It is my anecdotal experience to use them as ASW patrols Set ASW 70 / Train 20 / Rest 10 - 1000 alt and get them in Sydney / Brisbane / Townsville / Darwin - up and down the coast. In a few months they are sufficiently trained up to 'spot' IJN sub patrols. They may not damage subs very often but the mere spotting is very useful for other convoys in the area. ASW is not always about sinking a sub. Some upgrade to bombers - some upgrade to fighters - which requires supplemental training in 43.

Randy Stead -> RE: Seeking advice on how to use FBs effectively (1/25/2021 3:20:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Macclan5 Further to Yaabs and other excellent comments above. If in a game verses the AI - my personal but anecdotal experience is. (i) A number of P39 squadrons >> USA 2nd AF Fighter Command (5th AF >> SWest Pac) show up early in game. Train them up in Los Angles >> Noumea >> Suva >> Nndei as Naval Attack - 5000 alt - I leave the locations to you but I obviously try to 'get them to forward bases' as soon as I can safely do so. It is my anecdotal experience that they fly well off newly captured bases attacking IJN shipping xAP and xAK. Guadalcanal / Munda / Shortlands - before you get your full engineer support compliment there and develop the bases for maximum effectiveness. They fly off level 1/2 airbases and you can flip between CAP and Naval attack. They have sunk and damaged a number of ships leaving / supplying / counter invading in my limited experience in the Coral Sea operations. I have had little or no luck using them to dive bomb troops with effectiveness. (ii) Wirraways It is my anecdotal experience to use them as ASW patrols Set ASW 70 / Train 20 / Rest 10 - 1000 alt and get them in Sydney / Brisbane / Townsville / Darwin - up and down the coast. In a few months they are sufficiently trained up to 'spot' IJN sub patrols. They may not damage subs very often but the mere spotting is very useful for other convoys in the area. ASW is not always about sinking a sub. Some upgrade to bombers - some upgrade to fighters - which requires supplemental training in 43. Correct! The Allies took a while to learn that lesson against the U-boats. Precious ASW assets would be wasted of "offensive" patrols. Admiral King was a proponent of that. Most of the time the U-boat saw them coming and hid. Hard war experience taught them the best place for ASW ships was around the convoy. If the U-boats wanted to sink ships they had to come to the convoys. If they don't go after the convoys, they are confined to picking off singles and thus operating very inefficiently. An aircraft does not have to sink a submarine, just put it down until the convoy gets away.

RangerJoe -> RE: Seeking advice on how to use FBs effectively (1/25/2021 3:22:47 PM)
You want Low Naval attack at 1000 feet, not 5000 feet which is regular naval attack. The fighters are not affected by the reduced load. I usually use the Whirlaways at 1000 feet, 50% ASW and 50% training. I have had them damaged by the subs AA and then an OPs loss. They do attack and may be getting hits but with only 100 pound bombs. But a 5"/38 caliber gun has a projectile that weighs 54 pounds so the bomb can still hurt. It then helps to have ASW TFs around. Against the AI, I just leave them in a hex where the sub has been spotted by aircraft. They will come back again, be spotted from the air and be attacked by the ASW TF - or attack the ASW TF then be counterattacked.

Ian R -> RE: Seeking advice on how to use FBs effectively (1/25/2021 9:46:10 PM)
Wirraways are training aircraft, which in conditions of air supremacy can be used for spotting, and maybe hauling a few small bombs. They should be nowhere near any enemy fighter types. Also, level 1 airfields do not support offensive strike missions.

Randy Stead -> RE: Seeking advice on how to use FBs effectively (1/25/2021 11:09:03 PM)
Thanks, Ian. I've pulled them back to the mainland and have them training escort, to get their air skills up. After that I'll train them at something else. Joe, I cannot see any way to set the Wirraway to training ASW.[&:]

RangerJoe -> RE: Seeking advice on how to use FBs effectively (1/25/2021 11:18:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Randy Stead Thanks, Ian. I've pulled them back to the mainland and have them training escort, to get their air skills up. After that I'll train them at something else. Joe, I cannot see any way to set the Wirraway to training ASW.[&:] If they are fighter bombers, then they can't. In the campaign games, they are light bombers and they can do so. Another thing and not trying to be rude but informative and helpful, go look at all of the threads. You can change the "Display topics from last: 365 days" to "Display topics from last: all topics" then see them all from the very first thread.

Ian R -> RE: Seeking advice on how to use FBs effectively (1/25/2021 11:44:26 PM)
Randy, the story of the Wirraway is that in the midish 1930's an Australian industrialist went on a voyage to Europe and had a look at what was going on in Hitler's Germany. Essington Lewis was the chairman of BHP, a big mining company. On return, he roped in some other captains of industry, and a retired Wing Commander named Lawrence Wackett who was running a small civil aircraft company. They started up CAC (commonwealth Aircraft Corporation) in Melbourne in 1936. That company set about its first project, building a licensed NA-16 trainer variant (the Wirraway) from scratch - all the machine tools had to be acquired, jigs built, workers recruited and trained, etc etc. At the same time, an engine production line was set up to build the Pratt & Whitney R-1340. By the end of the war CAC was building P-51 Mustangs, with locally produced Merlin engines on sub license from Packard, as opposed to licensed from Rolls Royce. Basically AE properly reflects the fact that in 1941 this was a trainer that was pressed into limited service. If you use some legacy units to recon cut-off IJA ground troops in 1944/5, that have no air cover, and no AAA ammunition, then that also reflects historical usage, although the Boomerang was preferred for that job. Having said all of that, it is alleged that a Wirraway once shot down a zero.

RangerJoe -> RE: Seeking advice on how to use FBs effectively (1/26/2021 12:02:09 AM)
Not alleged, but it was actually an Oscar. quote: CAC Wirraway (serial number A20-103) at the Australian War Memorial Zero Killer Australian War Memorial: CAC Wirraway � The Unlikely �Zero Killer� On December 26th, 1942 Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) Pilot Officer John S. (Jack) Archer with crewman Sergeant J.L. (Les) Coulston of No. 4 Army Co-Operation Squadron were flying this CAC CA-5 Wirraway Mk.II (serial number A20-103) on a reconnaissance flight over a Japanese ship wreck near Buna, New Guinea, when they spotted and dived on what was reported as a Japanese Zero/Zeke fighter 1,000 feet below. With machine guns blazing and against all odds he shot it down! His five second burst of machine gun fire saw the Japanese aircraft plummet into the water and burst into flames � the victory was confirmed by 3 sources that day (the crew along with personnel from Australian Army 2/14th and 2/16th Battalions). Archer and Coulston completed their reconnaissance mission after this incident, and the body of the Japanese pilot was later recovered � it was discovered that he had been shot through the head when his fighter came under attack. https://acesflyinghigh.wordpress.com/2018/02/17/australian-war-memorial-cac-wirraway-the-unlikely-zero-killer/

Ian R -> RE: Seeking advice on how to use FBs effectively (1/26/2021 12:10:50 AM)
I think that still qualifies as an alleged Zero.[;)] Lots of Oscars were alleged to be Zeros.

RangerJoe -> RE: Seeking advice on how to use FBs effectively (1/26/2021 12:20:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ian R I think that still qualifies as an alleged Zero.[;)] Lots of Oscars were alleged to be Zeros. That was common, they looked similar and the Oscar was referred to as the IJA "Zero."

Randy Stead -> RE: Seeking advice on how to use FBs effectively (1/27/2021 12:50:41 AM)
Well, I tried using my P-39s to hit the ships, as well as the small Beaufort unit, escorted by Kittyhawk 1A. I chewed up some ships, sank one, I think. But the Zero CAP from Rabaul mauled me. I enjoyed better success the next turn or two with my subs, which hit several and likely sank two. No confirmation, but with multiple hits, 5 in one instance, I think it'd be a good bet that they sank. The P-39s didn't suffer as many fatalities as the poor Kittys, I lost 4 or 5. [X(] Damn, those subs are good. I think they are using different torpedoes than the ones up by Truk, which like to fire duds. I'll have to check next time I load the game to see which torpedoes they are using.

RangerJoe -> RE: Seeking advice on how to use FBs effectively (1/27/2021 1:46:58 AM)
S-boats use working torpedoes while the fleet boats use duds . . . [:@]

Randy Stead -> RE: Seeking advice on how to use FBs effectively (1/27/2021 3:05:52 PM)
The fleet subs up by Truk are using the Mark 14, the ones down by Buna are using Mark 10, to deadly effect. I don't know how the sub skippers kept their sanity after setting up an attack only to hear a dull, sickening thud, and then perhaps take a pasting from the escort after that. Supposedly in WWII a U-boat hit a British battleship with four duds and took a mighty hiding from the escorts. It was said they had to hospitalize him on his return to base. They thought Churchill was on the ship at the time. I can't vouch for this as it was a long time ago when I read this and I may be fuzzy on the details. I'm sure there's someone on the forum who can relate the story with more accuracy.

RhinoDad -> RE: Seeking advice on how to use FBs effectively (1/27/2021 3:59:58 PM)
quote: I don't know how the sub skippers kept their sanity after setting up an attack only to hear a dull, sickening thud, and then perhaps take a pasting from the escort after that. They literally got snarky and requested a boat hook with pry edge to pull off the riveted ship plates. Remembering it as Lockwood or at least reported by Lockwood but I am not sure. If that was not bad enough to report what happened, even to bring a torpedo back to be checked and told that you were lying or mistaken at best. Or to have the torpedo circle back at you. At least the submariners did not have to deal with launches starting fires, explosions, no launch(or at least far less) as the PT boats did. Then have to deal with the duds, circling torpedoes, depth issues, etc.

Randy Stead -> RE: Seeking advice on how to use FBs effectively (1/27/2021 5:27:19 PM)
Otto Kretschmer {U99?} believed that Gunther Prien {U47} was sunk by one of his own torpedoes doing a circle run. I've seen interviews with a number of U-boat skippers who said they had ears on eels as they left the tubes and were prepared to dive deep if they detected a circle runner.

LargeSlowTarget -> RE: Seeking advice on how to use FBs effectively (1/27/2021 5:33:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Randy Stead The fleet subs up by Truk are using the Mark 14, the ones down by Buna are using Mark 10, to deadly effect. I don't know how the sub skippers kept their sanity after setting up an attack only to hear a dull, sickening thud, and then perhaps take a pasting from the escort after that. Supposedly in WWII a U-boat hit a British battleship with four duds and took a mighty hiding from the escorts. It was said they had to hospitalize him on his return to base. They thought Churchill was on the ship at the time. I can't vouch for this as it was a long time ago when I read this and I may be fuzzy on the details. I'm sure there's someone on the forum who can relate the story with more accuracy. U-56 had three duds on HMS Nelson on Oct. 30, 1939. Aboard the BB were Churchill, at the time First Lord of the Admiralty, the First Sea Lord Sir Dudley Pound and the Admiral of the Fleet Sir Charles Forbes, meeting for a conference. U-56's commander Wilhelm Zahn became known in the Kriegsmarine as "the man who almost killed Churchill". He got so depressed after the failure of his attack that his boss Adm. D�nitz thought it wise to relieve Zahn from command.

Randy Stead -> RE: Seeking advice on how to use FBs effectively (1/27/2021 6:11:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget quote: ORIGINAL: Randy Stead The fleet subs up by Truk are using the Mark 14, the ones down by Buna are using Mark 10, to deadly effect. I don't know how the sub skippers kept their sanity after setting up an attack only to hear a dull, sickening thud, and then perhaps take a pasting from the escort after that. Supposedly in WWII a U-boat hit a British battleship with four duds and took a mighty hiding from the escorts. It was said they had to hospitalize him on his return to base. They thought Churchill was on the ship at the time. I can't vouch for this as it was a long time ago when I read this and I may be fuzzy on the details. I'm sure there's someone on the forum who can relate the story with more accuracy. U-56 had three duds on HMS Nelson on Oct. 30, 1939. Aboard the BB were Churchill, at the time First Lord of the Admiralty, the First Sea Lord Sir Dudley Pound and the Admiral of the Fleet Sir Charles Forbes, meeting for a conference. U-56's commander Wilhelm Zahn became known in the Kriegsmarine as "the man who almost killed Churchill". He got so depressed after the failure of his attack that his boss Adm. D�nitz thought it wise to relieve Zahn from command. That's the incident I was thinking of. Thanks for the exact info, LST.

Kull -> RE: Seeking advice on how to use FBs effectively (1/27/2021 6:34:01 PM)
Read up on USS Tinosa. Lay in wait (thank you intel) for the huge tanker Tonan Maru #3 and put four torpedoes into her. None exploded. Chased her, and the next day shot two off at a bad angle, but both exploded and left the tanker completely dead in the water. For the next few hours the Tinosa lined her up for shot after shot - 9 straight torpedoes and none exploded. Probably the biggest explosion came when Commander Daspit walked into COMSUBPACs office back in Pearl a few weeks later....[;)]

Ambassador -> RE: Seeking advice on how to use FBs effectively (1/27/2021 7:18:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kull Read up on USS Tinosa. Lay in wait (thank you intel) for the huge tanker Tonan Maru #3 and put four torpedoes into her. None exploded. Chased her, and the next day shot two off at a bad angle, but both exploded and left the tanker completely dead in the water. For the next few hours the Tinosa lined her up for shot after shot - 9 straight torpedoes and none exploded. Probably the biggest explosion came when Commander Daspit walked into COMSUBPACs office back in Pearl a few weeks later....[;)] About the 7th : "... Hit. No apparent effect. This torpedo hit well aft on the port side, made splash at the side of the ship and was then observed to have taken a right turn and to jump clear of the water about 100 feet (30 m) from the stern of the tanker. I find it hard to convince myself that I saw this." And to think that proper testing would probably have detected the malfunctions...[X(]

RhinoDad -> RE: Seeking advice on how to use FBs effectively (1/27/2021 7:53:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ambassador quote: ORIGINAL: Kull Read up on USS Tinosa. Lay in wait (thank you intel) for the huge tanker Tonan Maru #3 and put four torpedoes into her. None exploded. Chased her, and the next day shot two off at a bad angle, but both exploded and left the tanker completely dead in the water. For the next few hours the Tinosa lined her up for shot after shot - 9 straight torpedoes and none exploded. Probably the biggest explosion came when Commander Daspit walked into COMSUBPACs office back in Pearl a few weeks later....[;)] About the 7th : "... Hit. No apparent effect. This torpedo hit well aft on the port side, made splash at the side of the ship and was then observed to have taken a right turn and to jump clear of the water about 100 feet (30 m) from the stern of the tanker. I find it hard to convince myself that I saw this." And to think that proper testing would probably have detected the malfunctions...[X(] Oh the story gets better. The SS Tinosa tested each of the torpedoes they would use on a perfect shot at the tanker. Each tested as proper. They saved their last torpedo and brought it back for further examination. It also tested as proper but when fired, it repeatedly ran deep. Just as many submariners had been reporting. Neither congress nor Bureau of Ordnance wished to look at results. Declared that tests were not scientific nor accurate. Their testing, if it even had been done, had not been either but that did not matter. There were politics and faces to be saved. It took quite a lot of fighting and pushing before congress or the USNBO would examine and then fix the myriad of problems with the M-14. Probably why when testing the nukes in New Mexico my father said the running joke in the navy was "Why are we testing the bomb here when there is a Bureau of Ordnance nearby."

RangerJoe -> RE: Seeking advice on how to use FBs effectively (1/27/2021 8:24:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RhinoDad quote: ORIGINAL: Ambassador quote: ORIGINAL: Kull Read up on USS Tinosa. Lay in wait (thank you intel) for the huge tanker Tonan Maru #3 and put four torpedoes into her. None exploded. Chased her, and the next day shot two off at a bad angle, but both exploded and left the tanker completely dead in the water. For the next few hours the Tinosa lined her up for shot after shot - 9 straight torpedoes and none exploded. Probably the biggest explosion came when Commander Daspit walked into COMSUBPACs office back in Pearl a few weeks later....[;)] About the 7th : "... Hit. No apparent effect. This torpedo hit well aft on the port side, made splash at the side of the ship and was then observed to have taken a right turn and to jump clear of the water about 100 feet (30 m) from the stern of the tanker. I find it hard to convince myself that I saw this." And to think that proper testing would probably have detected the malfunctions...[X(] Oh the story gets better. The SS Tinosa tested each of the torpedoes they would use on a perfect shot at the tanker. Each tested as proper. They saved their last torpedo and brought it back for further examination. It also tested as proper but when fired, it repeatedly ran deep. Just as many submariners had been reporting. Neither congress nor Bureau of Ordnance wished to look at results. Declared that tests were not scientific nor accurate. Their testing, if it even had been done, had not been either but that did not matter. There were politics and faces to be saved. It took quite a lot of fighting and pushing before congress or the USNBO would examine and then fix the myriad of problems with the M-14. Probably why when testing the nukes in New Mexico my father said the running joke in the navy was "Why are we testing the bomb here when there is a Bureau of Ordnance nearby." Who said that some of them were really joking? I think that Maru was towed to Truk, never repaired but used for refueling other ships then sunk in an air raid. The whales were probably happy that it was sunk since it was a whaler.

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