7th december 2021 (Full Version)

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Rommel76 -> 7th december 2021 (2/7/2021 4:55:59 PM)

This year marks the 80th anniversary of the start of the War in the Pacific, could it be an opportunity for there to be a WitPae2?



Platoonist -> RE: 7th december 2021 (2/7/2021 5:45:05 PM)

There will be no WitPAE2, unless somebody out there has a huge bundle of money they wish to invest in such a project, and never see a return.



Ian R -> RE: 7th december 2021 (2/7/2021 9:02:31 PM)

No.



rustysi -> RE: 7th december 2021 (2/7/2021 10:34:23 PM)

Not this again!!!!![:D]



Ambassador -> RE: 7th december 2021 (2/8/2021 6:01:19 AM)

An opportunity, yes.

Will it happen ? No.

Modern games require too much investment to be designed, and despite how much we* love this game and the amount of hours we spend on it, we don’t represent a market share large enough to allow a positive return on investment. Mobile gaming (particularly the « freemium » model) and VR are trending.


* « we » as in « we who play this game regularly and would spend another 80€/$, or even 100, for a new one » ; according to a psychological study I’ve read 2-3 years ago, the vast majority of gamers need instant or quasi-instant gratification, and won’t have the patience (and analytical state of mind) required to learn WitP-AE, let alone play a full campaign.[:(]



Trugrit -> RE: 7th december 2021 (2/8/2021 10:43:07 AM)


I don’t think we there will be another WITP-AE 2.

Unfortunately there is a much better chance of another Pearl Harbor type of attack.

But…we can be grateful that CNN was not around in 1941.


[image]local://upfiles/49386/88FA6A20326344CDA1A53C3924BBA16E.jpg[/image]



Sardaukar -> RE: 7th december 2021 (2/8/2021 10:56:16 AM)

Gary Grigsby himself said that he'd never take any project of such difficulty as WitP again. [8D]

Even WitE/WitW/WitE 2 are easier to program, apparently.

He has done wonders with WitE 2 AI that I am currently beta-testing. They are looking for new testers...*hint hint*.



Wuffer -> RE: 7th december 2021 (2/8/2021 10:56:48 AM)

top!

[:D][:D]

---

edit: To add something slightly useful, maybe you might have a look on GG's new War in the East



Maallon -> RE: 7th december 2021 (2/8/2021 11:01:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

An opportunity, yes.

Will it happen ? No.

Modern games require too much investment to be designed, and despite how much we* love this game and the amount of hours we spend on it, we don’t represent a market share large enough to allow a positive return on investment. Mobile gaming (particularly the « freemium » model) and VR are trending.

* « we » as in « we who play this game regularly and would spend another 80€/$, or even 100, for a new one » ; according to a psychological study I’ve read 2-3 years ago, the vast majority of gamers need instant or quasi-instant gratification, and won’t have the patience (and analytical state of mind) required to learn WitP-AE, let alone play a full campaign.[:(]

Well they are currently working on War in the East 2, so it seems that there is still money to be made.
But I also think that is because WitE is probably their most popular title(maybe partly because it is available on steam) and so they decided to go for that Series. But I don't know the exact reasons.
I would also guess that a WitE2 is easier and cheaper to make then a WitP2, because of the difference in complexity.
WitP is really a niche in the niche, even among Wargamers not a lot of people play it.
I watched a video from a "hardcore" Wargaming Youtuber(He mostly plays HoI4[8|]) years ago who tried to play WitP for the first time and his verdict in his one Video was basically that the game is unplayable.
Okay, I guess........

I would generally agree with the study you mentioned, but it is also not solely a problem among games but of the digital age itself. People are so used to get instant gratifications from most things these days that impatience could be considered a common illness. [:D]
Just take the guy who **** posted here on the forums some time ago, as soon as he ran into problems, he instantly gave up and blamed the game for his mistakes. This is sadly very common nowadays.
And probably also the reason why so many people play shooter and battle royal these days and also why these communities tend to be the most toxic there is. [:D]
Can't remember the last time I played World of Tanks without my mom getting insulted. [8|]



AlbertN -> RE: 7th december 2021 (2/8/2021 12:06:17 PM)

The War in the East type of game is 'playable' as per ... you can launch the game, start a campaign or scenario and litterally play.
Playing without levels of experience or grand understanding BUT anyone who dabbled in wargames or strategy games with counters know there are 'strength factors' and 'movement factors' in plain sight.
That is part of the accessibility and playability of a game.

As Ambassador pointed out already, how quickly a game can be enjoyed is important.
So let's say a player taking on Germany in WITE and starting a Barbarossa campaign will still have the first 2 turns of grand armoured sweeps and Soviet crushing. Turn 3 and turn 4 (but not right -on the spot-) they'll see that their spearheads somehow move less and less! But they were set to go, ready, click to select, click to go, play!

WITE benefits also of a smoother and easier interface.
Plus I am sure many players want to 'fight', if they were to commandeer their logistical aspects (think that instead of tonnage per cargo you've tonnage per train-car, and then you need to assemble your TF, as per Train-Force! 10 trains start from Berlin and reach Smolensk Depot. Then Other 15 trains are to carry supplies from Breslau to Kiev, etc)... that's a mood killer for the most, who bought a wargame and not a railroad tycoon type of game!

Time is also a factor. Daily or almost turns ... it means a long, long undertaking for a single campaign - which can go bogus due to this or that problem happening to the other player. The AI - well the more complex a game is, the more an AI struggles to play efficiently in general.

So the market is already niche (wargaming) compared to other gaming sectors. But this specific title is extremely difficult, struggles to gain more players (I myself am new and I am definitely struggling to learn it due to the sheer overwhelming amount of notions needed) and lacks some form of easy and immediate access that gets a player started in the gaming - and then the player is hooked - and then the player wants to invest more time to learn to play better. This game has a formula of 'first you need to study an amount of rules and then you can somehow start to play the simplest of things'. The GUI too would need some overhaul (but that is also due to the game being pretty old).

That sums it up to what Platoonist has said - it's a type of game that requires lots of programming effort (and thus costs too), and would sell so little that it's not a market-able product to be for profit.



Maallon -> RE: 7th december 2021 (2/8/2021 1:53:50 PM)

I think you mix playability and accessibility up a bit as these two criteria are two very different things.
Both WitP and WitE are perfectly playable, once you get into them you should have no problems in playing either of them.
In terms of accessibility, yes WitP is much harder to access then WitE is.

I agree on the point that it is important how quickly games can be enjoyed.
In terms of access, and therefore sales, it is better to go that route of more or less instant gratification to hook the player into the game first, before getting him to learn all the stuff needed.
A lot of Online games, who depend on player playtime, work exactly like that.
But there is also something in me that disagrees with this as WitP doesn't follow that design principle and is one of my (if not the) most favorite Strategy games of all time.
But as mentioned I probably belong to a small number of people who think like that.
I also like logistics and would very much welcome a game for a change that concentrates on logistics more and less on the fighting part.
But again, I don't expect to find a lot of like minded individuals on this. [:D]

To conclude: Yes I also don't think that WitP will ever get a part 2.
But I actually like the game as it is, so I also don't mind all that much.



Ambassador -> RE: 7th december 2021 (2/8/2021 2:05:28 PM)

Not only with digital games either. The study was a PhD thesis on gaming as a whole, including video, boardgames and RPG’s (and not in the rocket sense). Or a draft, rather (I was proofreading it for a friend). Globally, he found the « population » of gamers was expanding, and diversifying, and that both the budget devoted to buying games was increasing (on a per capita basis) and the time spent playing (for adults) too, but also that the life expectancy of each game individually was drastically decreasing. Regarding boardgames for example, the thematics were greatly diversifying, with more games being published every year than the previous year, but developers were keeping the rules sufficiently similar, to allow players to essentially plug & play with only a couple minutes devoted to reading the rules. There are exceptions, but game designers often are cautious with the « big games » (hence the development of kickstarter campaigns, for example, therefore limiting the risks).

Which is exactly what Cohen_slith pointed in regards to WitE : any wargamer will quickly grasp the basics about the units. So, there is a market indeed, but rather small compared to the market for freemium mobile games or for FPS, where most of the money goes, and competition will keep fierce. The Paradox games are probably as complex as 90% for the strategy game players are ready to go, but they’re also way easier to understand, and simplify aspects most players would not consider fun.

As you say, we belong to a rather small subset of an already minority subset of players. For a game company to develop a WitP2, with the level of details we’d expect, they probably would have to sell individual copies starting at 200€/$... but then, I suspect a lot of prospective players wouldn’t buy the game (or would keep playing AE), which would keep pushing the price up.



Alfred -> RE: 7th december 2021 (2/8/2021 2:25:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

Not only with digital games either. The study was a PhD thesis on gaming as a whole, including video, boardgames and RPG’s (and not in the rocket sense). Or a draft, rather (I was proofreading it for a friend). Globally, he found the « population » of gamers was expanding, and diversifying, and that both the budget devoted to buying games was increasing (on a per capita basis) and the time spent playing (for adults) too, but also that the life expectancy of each game individually was drastically decreasing. Regarding boardgames for example, the thematics were greatly diversifying, with more games being published every year than the previous year, but developers were keeping the rules sufficiently similar, to allow players to essentially plug & play with only a couple minutes devoted to reading the rules. There are exceptions, but game designers often are cautious with the « big games » (hence the development of kickstarter campaigns, for example, therefore limiting the risks).

Which is exactly what Cohen_slith pointed in regards to WitE : any wargamer will quickly grasp the basics about the units. So, there is a market indeed, but rather small compared to the market for freemium mobile games or for FPS, where most of the money goes, and competition will keep fierce. The Paradox games are probably as complex as 90% for the strategy game players are ready to go, but they’re also way easier to understand, and simplify aspects most players would not consider fun.

As you say, we belong to a rather small subset of an already minority subset of players. For a game company to develop a WitP2, with the level of details we’d expect, they probably would have to sell individual copies starting at 200€/$... but then, I suspect a lot of prospective players wouldn’t buy the game (or would keep playing AE), which would keep pushing the price up.


Many years ago (before 2014), a newbie came to the forum complaining that AE lacked this and that. During that discussion, this individual stated that he would be willing to fund a mod/scenario to meet his expectations.

Well that was far too good a prospect of matching reality with dreaming for JWE/Symon, so he offered to produce the bespoke mod/scenario. All that was required to start the work was for an initial sum of $USD 30k to be transferred to his account. Needless to say the newbie thought that quantum was outrageous, and after JWE/Symon pointed out the market rates for computer professionals and the manhours involved in producing the bespoke mod/scenario, the newbie disqppeared, never to be seen again on the forum.

Now expand that single mod/scenario to a complete game. Remember that JWE/Symon's quote was at special mates rates, IOW well under real world market rates.

Alfred



Ambassador -> RE: 7th december 2021 (2/8/2021 3:45:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

Not only with digital games either. The study was a PhD thesis on gaming as a whole, including video, boardgames and RPG’s (and not in the rocket sense). Or a draft, rather (I was proofreading it for a friend). Globally, he found the « population » of gamers was expanding, and diversifying, and that both the budget devoted to buying games was increasing (on a per capita basis) and the time spent playing (for adults) too, but also that the life expectancy of each game individually was drastically decreasing. Regarding boardgames for example, the thematics were greatly diversifying, with more games being published every year than the previous year, but developers were keeping the rules sufficiently similar, to allow players to essentially plug & play with only a couple minutes devoted to reading the rules. There are exceptions, but game designers often are cautious with the « big games » (hence the development of kickstarter campaigns, for example, therefore limiting the risks).

Which is exactly what Cohen_slith pointed in regards to WitE : any wargamer will quickly grasp the basics about the units. So, there is a market indeed, but rather small compared to the market for freemium mobile games or for FPS, where most of the money goes, and competition will keep fierce. The Paradox games are probably as complex as 90% for the strategy game players are ready to go, but they’re also way easier to understand, and simplify aspects most players would not consider fun.

As you say, we belong to a rather small subset of an already minority subset of players. For a game company to develop a WitP2, with the level of details we’d expect, they probably would have to sell individual copies starting at 200€/$... but then, I suspect a lot of prospective players wouldn’t buy the game (or would keep playing AE), which would keep pushing the price up.


Many years ago (before 2014), a newbie came to the forum complaining that AE lacked this and that. During that discussion, this individual stated that he would be willing to fund a mod/scenario to meet his expectations.

Well that was far too good a prospect of matching reality with dreaming for JWE/Symon, so he offered to produce the bespoke mod/scenario. All that was required to start the work was for an initial sum of $USD 30k to be transferred to his account. Needless to say the newbie thought that quantum was outrageous, and after JWE/Symon pointed out the market rates for computer professionals and the manhours involved in producing the bespoke mod/scenario, the newbie disqppeared, never to be seen again on the forum.

Now expand that single mod/scenario to a complete game. Remember that JWE/Symon's quote was at special mates rates, IOW well under real world market rates.

Alfred

I did not know that anecdote. People have no sense of scale, past what they can experience first hand, 30k would not be much indeed, even for a single mod.



Mark VII -> RE: 7th december 2021 (2/8/2021 6:17:30 PM)

I laughed for 5 minutes, excellent[:D]
quote:

ORIGINAL: Trugrit


I don’t think we there will be another WITP-AE 2.

Unfortunately there is a much better chance of another Pearl Harbor type of attack.

But…we can be grateful that CNN was not around in 1941.


[image]local://upfiles/49386/88FA6A20326344CDA1A53C3924BBA16E.jpg[/image]




ITAKLinus -> RE: 7th december 2021 (2/8/2021 6:30:27 PM)

My perspective: I am a logistician IRL and I simply love logistics, so I am the kind of person who would welcome "War In The Pacific 2: Logistician Edition", however I can realistically say that we would play the game in 5 people. Three logistician, a retired logistician and a young guy who is studying logistics in order to become a logistician. [:)]


I think most of the games currently marketed, and it's a trend shared with many other product categories (think at clothing, to make an example), have a very short life-span and a relatively "shallow" complexity.
There are few exceptions, of course, but this is the general trend (again: my perspective).

Now, you are a company. You have to make money. I woulnd't bet a penny on a product which, even before its inception, is swimming against the stream. Let's say you are instead interested and willing to do so.
Then, you don't really want to bet on a product such as WITPAE. The reason is fairly obvious: A) there is a very good predecessor; B) there aren't many possible spillovers.

Take WITE-2. I would love to play it right now and I will purchase it once it is available. Still, I see the reasons behind the decision of making a WITE-2 instead of a WITPAE-2. To name few:

A) WITPAE, with all the infinite list of shortcomings we all knwo, it's a very solid game. Very well done. If you make a sequel you risk to add relatively few features to what's an already very good game.
B) Player basis is little. I think WITPAE forum, even taking into consideration the different time spans of the games, has way more activity than WITE and WITW, but in the end we are the customer base and that's it. I suspect WITE-2, for example, can try to "steal" some more casual gamers from other brands.
C) WITE-2 has the huge potential of becoming a magical and mitological "War In Europe" some day, mixing WITW and WITE. WITPAE is WITPAE. You cannot really develop it either geographically-wise or time-wise.


I think it's a safe bet to make a WITE-2 instead of any plan to do a WITPAE-2. WITPAE, again not forgetting all the limits we all know, it's a great game and any sequel would basically address the interface and so on, but there isn't that much that needs to be changed. At least, not enough to be able to market the game. And you carry the risk to create something sub-par, throwing away much money in the process.
Take WITE. There were several basic things that were considered a little bit odd, such as the logistics and the air system. They are a super safe bet when you decide to re-do them in a second chapter.
Doing a second chapter of WITPAE to address the lethality of the so-called "Super Escorts" is not gonna make people buy the game. How do you market such a thing?

That's my perspective. Might be completely wrong, of course.



RangerJoe -> RE: 7th december 2021 (2/8/2021 7:34:15 PM)

Maybe someone with knowledge of the game and coding will put up a thread describing just how inexpensive it will be to make these changes that people want - presuming that all relevant game designers can/will agree to these changes. Then this thread could be stickied and see if people are willing to pay up front until enough money is collected - adjusting things for inflation as well as the expected cost overruns due to delays.



ITAKLinus -> RE: 7th december 2021 (2/8/2021 7:37:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Maybe someone with knowledge of the game and coding will put up a thread describing just how inexpensive it will be to make these changes that people want - presuming that all relevant game designers can/will agree to these changes. Then this thread could be stickied and see if people are willing to pay up front until enough money is collected - adjusting things for inflation as well as the expected cost overruns due to delays.



I would gladly pay 50$ for a patch or whatever is the appropriate name. Just give me stuff to easily export in excel plus some "go to coordinates location" and I'm happy.


Yours is a great idea, even though I honestly don't know how much feasible it is.



Q-Ball -> RE: 7th december 2021 (2/8/2021 8:03:13 PM)

Sounds good! I'm sure WITP-AE2 can be put together and released in 10 months, no problem!

Seriously, in order to get it now they would've needed to start at the 75th anniversary.....



ninyure -> RE: 7th december 2021 (2/9/2021 8:37:39 AM)

Wonder what would happen if they set a p500, p1000 or whatever. I think they would get it. And no one need a full new game. Just an improved one, with a better interface.



BBfanboy -> RE: 7th december 2021 (2/9/2021 10:51:20 AM)

Look up the previous threads on the idea of reprogramming the game - the game engine is at its limits and various copyrights forbid taking Gary Grigsby's concept and running it on a new engine. The issue is dead.



Rommel76 -> RE: 7th december 2021 (2/9/2021 3:52:43 PM)

I agree that the scenario to make a WITPAE2 is not very favorable knowing what are the current trends aimed at easier to understand and handle games. We may not expect a totally new WITPAE2, but it would be more feasible to improve what we already have, which is almost perfect. Another question would be if we would be willing to financially support an improvement of the WITPAE, I certainly do.



ITAKLinus -> RE: 7th december 2021 (2/9/2021 4:17:21 PM)

I think even a patch, which addresses few problems and has a very little restyle would cost way too much, given the market it would have.

Moreover, due to intellectual property issues, it would have to be done in agreement with or directly by the original developers.

If my understanding of the market is even remotely on the spot: nope, there is no chance.


Now. If we talk of 100USD I can say, yeah why not even for very minor stuff. If we start going up, well, I keep what I have.

WITPAE, differently from many many other wargames, has a very nice company of fellas here on the forum who are in love with the game. A very deep and loyal love. Therefore there is somehow a market in these people, me in first row [:D][:D][:D], who would be willing to pay an extremely overpriced patch/restyle. But I really cannot see a more casual gamer throwing 100USD in order to have some minor improvements to a game which is already very solid and functioning.

And all this keeping more or less identical the game mechanics. No way. Would I pay 100USD for a restyled WITE? Hell, no. That's also why in WITE-2 discussions you see such an emphasis from the developers on the fact that it is a completely new game.



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