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Jaques Rico -> (7/11/2001 12:11:00 AM)
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Terror, :) there are a bit to much posts to answer, so I need to be selective. Sorry about that, but onlike Sven, I cant affort the time to live on the board.
@ Darroch
You want to know my point? Well then, I am just saying that despite american beliefs their soldiers werent the best and they werent definitly no heroes. I didnt say, that there were heroes on the german side, but the american opinion they won the wars alone and because of the superiority of their GI´s and marines is just plain crazy.
And if you look at the competence of the elite units the germans stood almost ever better than their adversaries. About the later units of the "Volksturm" which consisted mainly of 14 to 18 year old youth, there isnt much to say, if people like AmmoSgt and Sven think, these untrained kids were the average german soldiers and then blame their ability to stand up and die heroically in a lost war, i can only wonder about a certain mental disfuncionality.
And about the american belief of winning the war singlehandedly, WW2 wasnt lost in the west, it was lost in the east. Practically it was lost in the moment the attack on Russia began, because Germany would never had enough soldiers to occupy such a big country. It was simply a logistical impossibility.
And the american contribution to the result of WW1 is even less.
But I have to congratulate you on your knowledge about history. That is, as Ive often encountered it, not a common US trait. Just maybe a little correction, the treaty of Versailles is much more responsible for WW2 than the mentioned "Dolchstoßlegende". If Wilson would have been able to persuade the French and British to a more fair and tolerant treaty, we might never have seen a Third Reich. I personally doubt that Hitler would have been able to rise to power if that act had not created, or at least empowered, the revisionist tendencies in Germany.
@ Wild Bill
At least you said "the Allies" and not "the Americans". And to answer your question, the simplest answer would be: "Because they had the bigger economy." But you may of course say, that they had american wonder soldiers on their side, the best on the planet and in all the neightbouring galaxies.
Well, Iam a bit unfair now, Sven would speak so, but you would certainly put it in a bit more eloquent words.
@ El Vito
Thank you, you are a very good example to prove my point!
@ Warhorse and Paul Vebber
First something for Warhorse, I didnt say that the IIIj was the only tank with armored skirts, in fact I mentioned some others, I only said, that the IIIh didnt have any. And that is a fact. In the encyclopedia of Spwaw he is displayed with them, but he never had them. And I said that for that reason it is not possible to see if a system has armored skirts and if the game calculates them in. In my opinion there are to much first kills by side hits on such systems.
Ok, on to Penetration tables for Paul. I looked into the Tiger book for the correct penetration values of the Tiger tanks.
Tiger I 0m/500m/1000m/1500m/2000m/2500m
Book na/140/122/108/ 92/ 82
Spwaw 162/151/138/126/113/100
Tiger II
Book na/205/186/170/154/140
Spwaw 232/221/207/194/181/168
So you see, there are some discrepancies. My data is from "Wa Prüf 6, 1944, technische Daten von Panzerkampfwagen". So that are the orginial values determined by the german developers. Maybe you could look up how your source has determined the penetration values, perhaps they used a different steel...
@5th Recon
Ok, great hero, just a little question. In all the Vietnam movies the american platoons move in a very tight line, one soldier after the other, even when they went into battle. (The movie platoon springs to mind, and some others.) My question now, is that just fiction or were they truely stupid enough to act in such a way? :) Given from what Ive seen the amis do here in NATO-exercises it is possible.
@ AmmoSgt
Answer your email, or I have to assume your challenge was a fake.
@ Del
No, iam not confused. YOu can find the datas about the battle of Tebourba 01.-03.12.1942 in the Tiger book. It was the first battle for Tiger tanks in North Afrika.
@ George aka 2 f
Sagen wir doch einfach, daß mir diese amerikanische: "We are the best"-Altitude ein wenig auf die Nerven ging. Ein bißchen Zündeln muß erlaubt sein, zumindest solange man über Svens Niveau bleibt.
(Sorry about the 2 short german sentences.)
And George, if you dont know about german army activities outside our borders, that isnt so amazingly. There were some occasions, but since you nearly never hear about them in the media they are easy to miss. I will perhaps later this evening post a little list, to correct that assumption.
@ Panzerjäger Horlund
Just to your first anecdote, were the infantry units in it perhaps "Volksturm"-units? I think its unfair to expect great military miracles from 14 to 18 year old youth who hadnt barely a basic training and no experienced officers to lead them on.
And about the second episode, well the man was clearly a competent soldier.
@ Last but not least Jeff Norton
And thanks for your opinions.
Ok, on to it. I think that Germany would have lost the war even without the american intervention. It would have taken a bit longer for the russian war machine to overwhelm Germanys by sheer number but sooner or later they would have succeded. Since that would have meant, that Germany would have been ruled by Stalin (Even that would have been better than Hitlers victory, I believe.) I cant be to sorry that that was not the case.
However Germany didnt lose because of some american super heroes who rose to the occasion. You might remember Korea or Vietnam, some occasions where that american trait wasnt victorious.
You went over the combat course with rucksack and gun? Respect. We did of course the same, but the americans who were there at the same time went over the course barehanded and without their rucksacks. After that they gloated about being 10 to 15 seconds faster than us. I hope you can understand why we were a bit miffed at them.
And if I then have to read from people live Sven who sounds like he won WW1/2 and 3 alone, I hope you can understand that my sarcasm then shows.
Some facts about Desert Storm. Did you know that more than half of the american rockets malfunctioned before they reached their goals? And that another 20% of the remaining rocket clearly missed? Of course the outcome was secure, because the Americans simply shot enough rockets to make up for the losses. I just think it was not very efficient. :)
Or did you know that they needed to call in german mine clearers to remove the last mines, which their own people coudnt find? You never hear about such facts in the media. In america maybe because they dont want to diminish their own success and in Germany because they dont want that the population knows that we have army units outside the borders.
Each army has it faults, Jeff. I can easily name some of the german. I only hated it when some Americans carried on, like theirs would be spotless. I hope you understand.
Best wishes
JR
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