RE: The Montenegro Gambit Test 2 (Full Version)

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ThisEndUp -> RE: The Montenegro Gambit Test 2 (4/19/2021 12:51:12 PM)

Late to the party, since I was trying to get up to speed at World at War over the last 2 weeks.

What in the world have you guys done. [:-]

@Bavre Are you up for another 'test'? I'm quite curious to see this in action.
Hopefully the changes will be made before the last round of the tourney begins.



Bavre -> RE: The Montenegro Gambit Test 2 (4/19/2021 7:06:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThisEndUp

Late to the party, since I was trying to get up to speed at World at War over the last 2 weeks.

What in the world have you guys done. [:-]

@Bavre Are you up for another 'test'? I'm quite curious to see this in action.
Hopefully the changes will be made before the last round of the tourney begins.


Full game or just the opening phase? I would favor the latter, because I'm currently in 4 matches.



OldCrowBalthazor -> RE: The Montenegro Gambit Test 2 (4/19/2021 11:30:15 PM)

Hello all...mdsmall and I have been working for 2 months trying to figure out how to fix the situation in the Balkans, primarily stemming from The Montenegro Gambit deal and other things like Greece and Russia :) mdsmall did most of the heavy lifting with scripts but the concept ideas came from all of us that had input involving this sordid affair on the forum!

I will shamefully promote a You Tube channel that I just put up and the first test video of 55 minutes that features mdsmall's Balkan Variation Mod. We think our beloved dev's are close to implementing a patch but prior to that awaited time...we have this mod we are trying to work out.

Here is a link to my new channel, and an approximately 55 minute video from the CP point of view. Not much of the work concerning Greece or Russia is involved...but the Turkish Straights and the Montenegro/Serbia A.O. (Area of Operations) is highlighted. This is just an early attempt to create content on You Tube to feature this most excellent of games..but hopefully in the future..I can put out some cool SC game content, including PBEM.

Balthazor's Strategic Arcana

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwnsBUHYdk7tcejmU5k9cOw

btw..a match between Bavre and ThisEndUp would be epic...we would want to here the stories! [:D]




[image]local://upfiles/72627/2B72C387FC5A43669E4BB3CBEA9F2179.jpg[/image]



stockwellpete -> RE: The Montenegro Gambit Test 2 (4/21/2021 3:45:57 PM)

Very clear picture and good sound for that test.

Interesting idea with the coastal guns for the Turks. I have now completely cleared the area around Sedd el Bahr, just left the text there. Might be worth an experiment at some point. If Michael knows how to write event scripts, or is learning to, then something bigger in the game for Gallipoli would be worth thinking about in terms of DE's - e.g. reinforcement DE, evacuation DE. Also Spanish flu DE for 1917-18.



mdsmall -> RE: The Montenegro Gambit Test 2 (4/24/2021 4:07:31 AM)

Hi Stockwellpete,

Glad you liked this idea. It emerged from our discussions about Gallipoli two months ago. For those who have not looked at Old Crow's You Tube channel, my idea was to redraw the map of the Dardanelles.

The non-existent town of Sedd El Bahr is removed and two coastal hexes pm the Aegean have been removed from the peninsula (in reality it is much narrower than shown on the game map). I replaced the corps defending Sedd el Bahr with a 5 strength coastal gun that the Ottomans can deploy at the start in the hexes around Chanak - which allows them to put the gun on the straits hex. This reflects the historic fort at the tip of the peninsula that had some coastal batteries which the British and French navies took on at the start of the campaign. However, I kept the port at the tip of the peninsula, as capturing a port is the only way the Entente can supply an invading force over multiple turns, as happened in 1915. (It's a fiction, but no bigger a fiction than placing a town there). I also made the hexes on the north side of the straits hilly terrain.

Finally, I moved the town of Gallipoli - which is a significant NM objective - one hex further east, so it can't be bombarded by ships in the Aegean. I gave Gallipoli a port facing the Sea of Marmara, which reflects that there was an Ottoman port on the north coast of that sea. This makes Gallipoli an even more enticing target for the Entente to capture, if they can blow their way through the straits and fight their way up the peninsula.

In the last patch the devs gave the UK and France a starting amphibious tech capability of 1, plus moved up the Lemnos DE to January 1, 1915. So, I hope all the conditions are now in place to encourage the Entente player to try something similar to history.

I will save to another day a description of the new DE and related events for an Entente intervention in northern Greece to save Serbia.

Cheers!

Michael



Bavre -> RE: The Montenegro Gambit Test 2 (4/28/2021 5:37:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThisEndUp

Late to the party, since I was trying to get up to speed at World at War over the last 2 weeks.

What in the world have you guys done. [:-]

@Bavre Are you up for another 'test'? I'm quite curious to see this in action.
Hopefully the changes will be made before the last round of the tourney begins.


Another test round finished, pretty much the same result.



ThisEndUp -> RE: The Montenegro Gambit Test 2 (5/1/2021 2:02:54 AM)

October 10, 1914:

The Russian army is in full retreat. Their only hope is the 4 chits in trench warfare that may eventually slow the Huns down. Poland is lost. Permanent losses are 1 detachment, 1 cavalry corp, 4 infantry corps. They will be dearly missed.

The French have Belgium, but any successful offensive is impossible given the terrain.

Serbia, as expected, has fallen.

Well done Bavre. Some serious changes are necessary.

MPP losses
Russia: 5533
Germany: 3019
AH: 2779
Serbia: 1097
France: 947

[image]local://upfiles/72517/595B260877E041A9AAACB9E2C8897B75.jpg[/image]



OldCrowBalthazor -> RE: The Montenegro Gambit Test 2 (5/1/2021 7:03:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThisEndUp

October 10, 1914:

The Russian army is in full retreat. Their only hope is the 4 chits in trench warfare that may eventually slow the Huns down. Poland is lost. Permanent losses are 1 detachment, 1 cavalry corp, 4 infantry corps. They will be dearly missed.

The French have Belgium, but any successful offensive is impossible given the terrain.

Serbia, as expected, has fallen.

Well done Bavre. Some serious changes are necessary.



mdsmall and I have been working on these problems for two months mainly behind the scenes with a mod. We have also been doing tests..and are in the final stages of some minor tweaks. On top of that...I am recording them for YT.

Mainly, it solves the Montenegro and Serbia component...the Russia First component, possible early Entente intervention in Northern Greece and somethings for the Ottomans around the Dardenelles.

In parallel I have the understanding that the Devs have stuff cooking...but I'm not sure how much mirrors what we are doing.

I do know with the mod test we are doing, that if the CP decides to do a Russia First...it still will be potentially rough for Russia...but the Russians will get a DEC if certain conditions happen so as to have the options of deploy their mobilizated units further back on the beginning turns. Makes sense too, as the bulk of these troops were called up not in Poland, but the far reaches of Russia...then trained in.

There's also provisions for an early Entente intervention in Northern Greece if certain conditions are met if there is an quick collapse of Serbia.

The railines out of Sarajevo and Pec to the coast were removed, and this made Montenegro, particularly Cetinje, more inaccessible...and realistic.

For The Ottomans, coast guns are provided for placement options near Chanak.

A new convoy route for Serbia via Salonika can happen if Cetinje falls, and Serbia's army is tweaked slightly stronger.

There are other things not mentioned...and I have two pages of notes from mdsmall, who did all the script work. We are ready to test an updated version with one of us doing a strong 'Bavre style' Russia First/Serbia Crush strategy.[:D]..and I will be recording it for upload as soon as possible mindful of FoW as it will be on YT.

Cheers, Old Crow



Bavre -> RE: The Montenegro Gambit Test 2 (5/1/2021 4:31:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThisEndUp

October 10, 1914:

The Russian army is in full retreat. Their only hope is the 4 chits in trench warfare that may eventually slow the Huns down. Poland is lost. Permanent losses are 1 detachment, 1 cavalry corp, 4 infantry corps. They will be dearly missed.

The French have Belgium, but any successful offensive is impossible given the terrain.

Serbia, as expected, has fallen.

Well done Bavre. Some serious changes are necessary.

MPP losses
Russia: 5533
Germany: 3019
AH: 2779
Serbia: 1097
France: 947

[image]local://upfiles/72517/595B260877E041A9AAACB9E2C8897B75.jpg[/image]


I hope this does not come across as gloating, but the situation is actually a lot worse than the numbers imply. Since I overran several deployment areas quite a few units will never even show up, for example the 2 mountaineers that can either go to Brest or the caucasus. Plus several other units have disbanded when their countries were overrun.
The 4 russian chits in trenches will not change much. Mdsmall and I already tried this. In this phase of the game (german units readiness around 100%, russian at around 60%) german corps just walk over russian ones even with entrenchment 2.
And there is sure as hell no need to congratulate. This things is a 100% exploit and once understood takes absolutely zero skill to pull off.



mdsmall -> RE: The Montenegro Gambit Test 2 (5/1/2021 8:40:08 PM)

Hi - as Old Crow mentioned above, he and I have come up with a mod to address a lot of these issues. Two additional critical features are to this mod are:

- we have reduced to zero the unit morale swing when countries surrender. As noted in previous posts on this thread, the morale boosts which the CP receives from Luxembourg, then Montenegro, then Serbia surrendered is too high.

(If there was a way of restricting morale penalty just to the controlling power for the minor that surrendered, I would have kept it - but in the game editor, it is an all or nothing proposition).

- we are working with a house rule that prohibits both sides from selling tech chits on turn one (only). In return, the Germans, Austrians and Russians getting enough MPPs to start to operationally move 2-3 corps on their first turns. That is enough to help both sides move a couple of corps operationally on the first turn but it blunts the first-mover advantage of the CP if they decide to go all out and sell every chit on turn one.

We are about to test this out and post the results on Old Crow's YT channel. But if anyone else is interested in receiving the mod files and testing them yourselves, just email me and I will be happy to share them.

Michael



Taxman66 -> RE: The Montenegro Gambit Test 2 (5/1/2021 9:49:16 PM)

How about simply changing the German starting Tech chits to none, then adding an event that gives them all the ones they should start with for free.

Or simply a 'house rule' disallowing selling Tech chits on turn 1?



mdsmall -> RE: The Montenegro Gambit Test 2 (5/2/2021 3:07:14 PM)

Hi - Although you can change the starting settings for tech through the Editor, once the game has started I don't think you can make any changes to tech chits at all through the event scripts. Bill can confirm that. Hence the reason why in my game with Old Crow we are using a house rule prohibiting selling chits on turn one.



OldCrowBalthazor -> RE: The Montenegro Gambit Test 2 (5/2/2021 5:07:19 PM)

In addition, this Balkan Variations mod/proposal is about comprehensive balancing changes for Russia First strategies and Early Serbia Surrender outcomes that don't totally wreck the game for the Entente, and consequently, the Central Powers player who is a sportsman and not a juvenile exploit artist.



BillRunacre -> RE: The Montenegro Gambit Test 2 (5/2/2021 8:34:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mdsmall

Hi - Although you can change the starting settings for tech through the Editor, once the game has started I don't think you can make any changes to tech chits at all through the event scripts. Bill can confirm that. Hence the reason why in my game with Old Crow we are using a house rule prohibiting selling chits on turn one.


That's right, there is no mechanism in place allowing you to give countries chits or research levels during a game.



OldCrowBalthazor -> RE: The Montenegro Gambit Test 2 (5/3/2021 2:30:42 AM)

Balkan Variations Mod Ver 2.0 by mdsmall

Here are the Balkan Variations Mod Ver 2.0 notes sent to me from mdsmall. There are 2 short episodes describing this mod.

Mod description Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWnDHzz_ZIk&t=105s

Mod Description Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHcabtvnU4E

Mod Description Part 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiC1eZGwuIQ&list=PLsv6IgUEHAv_cSqIYPI4eHsU2OMOf1__B&index=3

Hopefully soon, we will have a series up that experiences this mod from the Ententes p.o.v. (Me) very soon. [:D]

[image]local://upfiles/72627/4D70A9EE63F4490399C644C8AA6EA276.jpg[/image]



Espejo -> RE: The Montenegro Gambit Test 2 (5/5/2021 2:44:41 PM)

Is the Montenegro gambit still alive and kicking?



snooky51 -> RE: The Montenegro Gambit Test 2 (5/5/2021 3:36:32 PM)

Looks like the new patch will kill it. Came two days too late as I just suffered at the hands of CP player going full gambit on me.



OldCrowBalthazor -> RE: The Montenegro Gambit Test 2 (5/5/2021 5:37:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: snooky51

Looks like the new patch will kill it. Came two days too late as I just suffered at the hands of CP player going full gambit on me.


I knew a bunch of non sportsman like behavior like this was going on. A public and known eXploit for 3 months. The only reason anybody should be doing that is in a test to try to fix the issue. I'm sorry to hear that you and anyone else unaware of this would be subjected to such a juvenile and dink like move.

Well..we got the new version, and much thanks to Bill and Hubert who listen to we patriots of fair play and gamemanship. Thumbs down to those that like to take advantage of a rule, a mechanic, or anything else to gain a victory over another gamer. Let all those types go down in infamy!!!

There. Done with my rant...and I feel better now. [:D]



snooky51 -> RE: The Montenegro Gambit Test 2 (5/5/2021 6:04:49 PM)

I am almost tempted to end the game, but I think it will be good experience to have to play off my back foot so early. Not like losing this one will damage my pride too much.



OldCrowBalthazor -> RE: The Montenegro Gambit Test 2 (5/5/2021 9:48:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: snooky51

I am almost tempted to end the game, but I think it will be good experience to have to play off my back foot so early. Not like losing this one will damage my pride too much.

That's the spirit......even though you got "had by a cad", you are the true winner here snooky51 [8D]



snooky51 -> RE: The Montenegro Gambit Test 2 (5/13/2021 1:39:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

quote:

ORIGINAL: snooky51

I am almost tempted to end the game, but I think it will be good experience to have to play off my back foot so early. Not like losing this one will damage my pride too much.

That's the spirit......even though you got "had by a cad", you are the true winner here snooky51 [8D]



Looks like I will end up being the real winner, his all-east plan back fired. It is August 14, 1915 and the western front is at the Wesser River and he currently has only an Austrian Corp and German cavalry between myself and Berlin. His left flank in the South is solid but is in imminent danger of being enveloped. Krakow and all of Galicia has fallen. Romania is about to enter so Bulgaria (who joined a turn previous) will not be able to plug his holes. Berlin by Christmas maybe?



AshFall -> RE: The Montenegro Gambit Test 2 (7/26/2021 3:21:47 PM)

So, I feel I have to ask. Is this exploit considered fixed now by patches?

I had the impression, when reading through this thread, that is was.

However, I'm playing three games now aside from the first that I handily lost to Will, one against him as the central powers and two as the Entente against others. Both my games as the entente are up against this strat, and neither are going very well.

In one my opponent evacuated Galicia in the starting turns, letting the Russians take the important objectives there and setting up a good defensive line along the river. The subsequent entry of Romania with events and Diplo as well as maneuvers in Italy and in Egypt has made that a game at least, though looking grim.

The Second one is just CP steamroller, did not get the chance to grab anything before he slaughtered Poland and is rolling up the Russian lines.

What's the verdict?



Bavre -> RE: The Montenegro Gambit Test 2 (7/26/2021 9:18:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AshFall

So, I feel I have to ask. Is this exploit considered fixed now by patches?

I had the impression, when reading through this thread, that is was.

However, I'm playing three games now aside from the first that I handily lost to Will, one against him as the central powers and two as the Entente against others. Both my games as the entente are up against this strat, and neither are going very well.

In one my opponent evacuated Galicia in the starting turns, letting the Russians take the important objectives there and setting up a good defensive line along the river. The subsequent entry of Romania with events and Diplo as well as maneuvers in Italy and in Egypt has made that a game at least, though looking grim.

The Second one is just CP steamroller, did not get the chance to grab anything before he slaughtered Poland and is rolling up the Russian lines.

What's the verdict?


I think there might be a misunderstanding: The overall strategy I use here (very aggressive Russia first combined with a strong push on the balkans) is NOT the exploit! It is however a very strong strategy on its own, especially if the Entente player isn't prepared and plays his Russia like you'd do vs a Schlieffen.

If you want details on the exploit, check out the original M-Gambit thread https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4967918
starting at post 15. One thing I overlooked back then was that I already had a boost from the end of Luxembourg, so what I experienced there was actually not the sole boost from Montenegro but the combined Montenegro-Luxembourg effect that turned my guys into ze Kaisers spacemarines.



AshFall -> RE: The Montenegro Gambit Test 2 (7/26/2021 9:23:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bavre


quote:

ORIGINAL: AshFall

So, I feel I have to ask. Is this exploit considered fixed now by patches?

I had the impression, when reading through this thread, that is was.

However, I'm playing three games now aside from the first that I handily lost to Will, one against him as the central powers and two as the Entente against others. Both my games as the entente are up against this strat, and neither are going very well.

In one my opponent evacuated Galicia in the starting turns, letting the Russians take the important objectives there and setting up a good defensive line along the river. The subsequent entry of Romania with events and Diplo as well as maneuvers in Italy and in Egypt has made that a game at least, though looking grim.

The Second one is just CP steamroller, did not get the chance to grab anything before he slaughtered Poland and is rolling up the Russian lines.

What's the verdict?


I think there might be a misunderstanding: The overall strategy I use here (very aggressive Russia first combined with a strong push on the balkans) is NOT the exploit! It is however a very strong strategy on its own, especially if the Entente player isn't prepared and plays his Russia like you'd do vs a Schlieffen.

If you want details on the exploit, check out the original M-Gambit thread https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4967918
starting at post 15. One thing I overlooked back then was that I already had a boost from the end of Luxembourg, so what I experienced there was actually not the sole boost from Montenegro but the combined Montenegro-Luxembourg effect that turned my guys into ze Kaisers spacemarines.


Yeah, my understanding was that the "exploity" part was the super-soldiers that spring up from all the conquest bonuses.

Though I wonder a bit at the strat allowing the guaranteed collapse of Serbia (as far as I can see without any available counterplay) by the end of 1914. It's hard to see that selling off all tech chits to make an uncounterable attack on Serbia/Montenegro/Albania isnt borderline exploity regardless?



Bavre -> RE: The Montenegro Gambit Test 2 (7/26/2021 9:35:33 PM)

Hmm, yes you could make a point for that. The one thing I can say for certain is that it's not nearly as strong as the original version. Back then I could effortlessly walk over opponents with 10 times+ my MP experience, making any further strategy 100% redundant. (To be clear, I never used it on an unsuspecting opponent! Several veterans just wanted to see the exploit first hand and/or try to withstand it).

If you want, we could make a very quick (and maybe limited) test. For example just the Serbia theatre with me as Entente trying to contain the fallout?



AshFall -> RE: The Montenegro Gambit Test 2 (7/26/2021 9:55:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bavre

Hmm, yes you could make a point for that. The one thing I can say for certain is that it's not nearly as strong as the original version. Back then I could effortlessly walk over opponents with 10 times+ my MP experience, making any further strategy 100% redundant. (To be clear, I never used it on an unsuspecting opponent! Several veterans just wanted to see the exploit first hand and/or try to withstand it).

If you want, we could make a very quick (and maybe limited) test. For example just the Serbia theatre with me as Entente trying to contain the fallout?


I'd be down for that.

We would need to do the land fronts and entente Norway sabotage to simulate econ drain properly to evaluate costs.

I figure if I, with a total of one finished and three ongoing games under my belt, can pull it off anyone can. :D



AshFall -> RE: The Montenegro Gambit Test 2 (7/26/2021 9:59:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

Unfortunately, I edited over the screen shot of the Eastern Front. Bavre can pull his next turn 4 and document the rest. The image uploaded speaks for itself. I'm done with this. Its going to take a Major Fix to correct this Montenegro Gambit Exploit.

>> pm mssg copy to Bavre:

>Go ahead and do your turn and document it if you want. This game is big time broken as it is now. I put out a half a dozen proposals to fix this. What ever they decide...It has to be MAJOR regarding Cetinje. As far as I can see...that town needs to be a fortress with a corp in it..plus snipping of the railroad like I described..plus a second capital. I have no interest in proposing fixes or testing on my own or in a MP anymore.

Thanks though for your time, we make great AAR'S and perhaps when this is resolved we can do an MP with SC-WW1 or one of the other titles.

cheers O7, Old Crow

[image]local://upfiles/72627/5970FF86E57149E092C898B89F99CF01.jpg[/image]


I second this, I would love to see a proper AAR from both perspectives with the both of you. Laughed out loud at several of the exhanges! :D



Bavre -> RE: The Montenegro Gambit Test 2 (7/26/2021 10:15:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AshFall
I second this, I would love to see a proper AAR from both perspectives with the both of you. Laughed out loud at several of the exhanges! :D


You might be interested in OldCrows match vs mdsmall then: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckaEw01_Gko
It's a modded game and mdsmall didn't go crazy vs Serbia in the opening, but overall his strategy vs Russia here is pretty similar to mine. (mdsmall was also one of the vict.. err I mean willing test subjects of the early M-gambit)
A new match between OldCrow and me will have to wait a bit however. He's in too many games with his new channel already, but we are in contact for a possible future match.



Bavre -> RE: The Montenegro Gambit Test 2 (7/26/2021 10:19:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AshFall


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bavre

Hmm, yes you could make a point for that. The one thing I can say for certain is that it's not nearly as strong as the original version. Back then I could effortlessly walk over opponents with 10 times+ my MP experience, making any further strategy 100% redundant. (To be clear, I never used it on an unsuspecting opponent! Several veterans just wanted to see the exploit first hand and/or try to withstand it).

If you want, we could make a very quick (and maybe limited) test. For example just the Serbia theatre with me as Entente trying to contain the fallout?


I'd be down for that.

We would need to do the land fronts and entente Norway sabotage to simulate econ drain properly to evaluate costs.

I figure if I, with a total of one finished and three ongoing games under my belt, can pull it off anyone can. :D


OK, I'll host a standard match with me as Entente, pw in pm. We'll play the opening phase as if it's a full match and then see where we go from there.



AshFall -> RE: The Montenegro Gambit Test 2 (7/27/2021 3:09:31 PM)

Aaaaand we're off! :D

All the standard shenanigans ongoing.



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