U-Boat War Too Lethal (Full Version)

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majpalmer -> U-Boat War Too Lethal (3/6/2021 3:32:29 PM)

That's my conclusion. It's far too lethal, from both sides.

As best as I can determine, each point of a UB Group equals 5 boats--25 per group. Each point of merchant shipping equals 100,000 tons. The Danes had 1.2 million GRT of shipping, of which most went to the British when the Germans invaded. In the game, when the Germans conquer Denmark the UK receives 11 Merchant Shipping Points (MSP). They get 47 from Norway, which had a fleet of 4.8 million GRT.

Total Allied losses to U-Boats during the war was not quite 15,000,000 GRT--in game terms 150 MSP. That's the total lost in a war lasting 150+ game turns--on average 1 MSP per turn. The Germans lost on average, in game terms, 1 UB per turn.

By the end of 1940 (the first 35 game turns), the Germans had lost 7 UB strength points and the Allies had lost about 30 MSP. That's it!

My experience playing the sim is that both shipping and UB losses are much higher. I've had turns where I've sunk as many as 13 MSP. The best the Germans did was in November 1942 when they sank, rounded up, 8 MSP. I've often sunk over 200 MSP by the end of 1941. Remember the total sunk by UBs in the entire war was the equivalent of 150 MSP.

I've been playing around with the editor trying to curb the lethality. I've had some success, but I have no idea how the changes will impact the game beyond 1940. But as the game stands at the moment, the entire BOA facet of the sim is far too lethal.



stjeand -> RE: U-Boat War Too Lethal (3/6/2021 3:54:34 PM)

Do not forget you get +-39 MS from the Netherlands...and you get some from Greece, forget the number exactly.

Play a human...totally different BOA battle in my eyes...



Nirosi -> RE: U-Boat War Too Lethal (3/6/2021 4:38:05 PM)

quote:

Total Allied losses to U-Boats during the war was not quite 15,000,000 GRT--in game terms 150 MSP.


Interesting numbers. However, if the lethality would be curbed to reflect that, a lot would also have to be changed to rebalance otherwise; maybe reducing a lot the price of u-boats? Because 150 MM is nothing for the allies. In our games even at triple that (by mid-1944) it has little serious effect on the Allies who can still operate quite effectively. Not sure I would bother building u-boats at 120+ PP a piece for an average of 150 MM sunk over the whole war.

For damage to the u-boats, what I have noticed is that it varies a lot, really a lot. Some times one can lose a full u-boat in 1939, but some other games, it can go June 1940 before a single hit is done on them!



AlvaroSousa -> RE: U-Boat War Too Lethal (3/6/2021 6:28:16 PM)

I will remind you this is a wargame based on history but is not a historical wargame.

Players will act differently than history with hindsight.

The one thing that is correct is that in the early years the Axis will sink more MM per sub than later years accounting for attrition.

So if you combine all your subs in the N/A expect higher losses.
If you split them up forcing the Allies to spread out escorts expect lower losses.
If you leave damaged subs out sinking MMs expect higher losses.
If you carefully manage subs sending them back him when they lose 2 strength expect lower losses.

I have played enough games where I got a very good feel for the sub war. It works pretty well with each side investing what they want into this ocean going conflict.

As the Axis in several games I have managed not to lose a sub until 1942.
As the Allies I have managed to keep losses under control until 1942 where the tide starts turning.



scout1 -> RE: U-Boat War Too Lethal (3/6/2021 8:17:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

I will remind you this is a wargame based on history but is not a historical wargame.

Players will act differently than history with hindsight.

The one thing that is correct is that in the early years the Axis will sink more MM per sub than later years accounting for attrition.

So if you combine all your subs in the N/A expect higher losses.
If you split them up forcing the Allies to spread out escorts expect lower losses.
If you leave damaged subs out sinking MMs expect higher losses.
If you carefully manage subs sending them back him when they lose 2 strength expect lower losses.

I have played enough games where I got a very good feel for the sub war. It works pretty well with each side investing what they want into this ocean going conflict.

As the Axis in several games I have managed not to lose a sub until 1942.
As the Allies I have managed to keep losses under control until 1942 where the tide starts turning.


Thinking I need to put you in charge of my uboats / Allied naval assets ....



majpalmer -> RE: U-Boat War Too Lethal (3/6/2021 9:52:02 PM)

I understand all of this. I know that a human player can compensate for the lethality and maintain a balance, unlike the AI. It was playing solitaire that I started noticing how off things were.

For example: Escorts cost 40. Merchant shipping points cost 10 each (in groups of 10 for 100). U-Boat Groups cost (1939 cost) 120. But when an escort point is destroyed, the replacement costs the full 40. When a MSP is lost, a replacement costs a full 10. But when a UB point is lost, the replacement costs you 6, not 24. Allied losses need to be replaced at 100% of the cost; German losses at 20%. The reality is that the escort, the merchant ship, and the U-Boat are all sunk. Moreover, the UB point can be replaced in 14 days. The Escort and MSP take months to re-appear. These factors distort the system. As a result, the Allied cost of waging the BoA is (dis)proportionally higher than that of the Germans.

In one solitaire game, the Allies had lost 256 MSP and 30 Escorts by the end of April 1941. That represented 3,760 PP, about 42% of total UK+CN production to that point in the war. That's not counting the cost of the aircraft I had assigned to AS duties, which brought the total to over 4,100 and about 45% of all my expenditure. As the Germans I had been careful with my UBs and had not lost a single group. Individual losses were 52, replaced at about 7 pts per loss, for a total cost of about 364--less than a tenth of what the Allies had lost. I had constructed another six UB groups, for a cost of 720 points. But that still means that the Allies were expending four times what the Germans were spending to keep up. There was no Canadian Army. There was no Bomber Command. I was struggling to keep the 8th Army up to strength. Aid to Russia? Forget that.



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