WitE2 enjoyable for fans of HoI and Strategic Command? (Full Version)

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drommarnas -> WitE2 enjoyable for fans of HoI and Strategic Command? (3/9/2021 7:54:48 PM)

Dear community members,
I've been playing turn-based hex war games since the 1980s, but the level of complexity I'm used to doesn't really exceed the beloved Strategic Command series (WiE, WaW, WW1...).
Almost bought GG WitE1 when it was on Steam sale weeks ago, but decided to wait for WitE2. Unfortunately, it doesn't come with a demo and I'm unsure if the price tag is worth the experiment.

Most important to know for me would be how many hours one playthrough with the Germans in the grand 1941 campaign will take with the maximum level of automation and rather casual playstyle.
Can you finish the campaign in some 20 hours or is that utterly unrealistic?

I reckon that despite the much bigger complexity compared with the SC series, it should be a big time saver that in WitE2 you can automate air warfare, there doesn't seem to be naval warfare, there's only the Eastern Front, game starts in 1941 etc.

Thanks for your feedback!



loki100 -> RE: WitE2 enjoyable for fans of HoI and Strategic Command? (3/9/2021 9:18:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: drommarnas

Dear community members,
I've been playing turn-based hex war games since the 1980s, but the level of complexity I'm used to doesn't really exceed the beloved Strategic Command series (WiE, WaW, WW1...).
Almost bought GG WitE1 when it was on Steam sale weeks ago, but decided to wait for WitE2. Unfortunately, it doesn't come with a demo and I'm unsure if the price tag is worth the experiment.

Most important to know for me would be how many hours one playthrough with the Germans in the grand 1941 campaign will take with the maximum level of automation and rather casual playstyle.
Can you finish the campaign in some 20 hours or is that utterly unrealistic?

I reckon that despite the much bigger complexity compared with the SC series, it should be a big time saver that in WitE2 you can automate air warfare, there doesn't seem to be naval warfare, there's only the Eastern Front, game starts in 1941 etc.

Thanks for your feedback!


most of your questions are judgemental, but one I can easily answer. Even with taking as much AI-assistance as you can (air war, depots and support units), you won't finish the 1941 Grand campaign in 20 hours. As a rough indicator, the game I am reporting as the Soviet AAR took me about 3 months and I am used to the game systems.

can't really answer a price/value question. I think if the game scale and system clicks for you, then it well be the best £/hour purchase you can make (certainly for me this would be true of both WiTE1 and WiTW). Clearly if it doesn't click then its expensive way to find out. So much of that trade off is about what appeals to you, your willingness to invest time and so on.

A lot of work has gone into the dooumentation, UI and AI support routines to make this playable in a relatively casual way. But its still a huge game at the campaign level

hope this helps a wee bit

Roger



rebelkevin12 -> RE: WitE2 enjoyable for fans of HoI and Strategic Command? (3/9/2021 9:34:25 PM)

No way to finish the game in 20 hours. Average turn is about an hour and that is using AI on alot of things except the main strategy movements and fighting. Played an Wite 1 game once and almost took 150 hours. It is un-fathonable to me how the creators could have developed such complexity in the algo to make this game so realistic. zKevin



ranknfile -> RE: WitE2 enjoyable for fans of HoI and Strategic Command? (3/9/2021 9:59:02 PM)

I think of wargames as having three varieties:
- the quick and largely abstract; such as the Order of Battle series
- the intermediate (between the two extremes); such as the Strategic Command series
- the monotonous but believable; such as Gary Grigsby's or John Tiller's offerings (these games are more of a commitment, like a relationship!)

Each level has its advantages and disadvantages; as a rule, the more quickly played, the less authentic.

As monotonous commitments go, this one has me quite excited! If you're going to sample one of them, this would be the one to go for. You can always play the smaller scenarios. Or even play as the Germans in the GC but just until the end of '41. That should not take too much time.



Erik Rutins -> RE: WitE2 enjoyable for fans of HoI and Strategic Command? (3/9/2021 10:36:49 PM)

Have to say I wouldn't have used the word monotonous, but certainly it can be all-consuming. I find I get quite engrossed as with any complex wargame in the trials of my digital soldiers and the scope and scale bring that to the next level.

My advice to the original poster is that there are scenarios that can easily be completed very quickly, well within your timeframe. Those will be quite enjoyable on their own and help teach you the game. As you learn, the larger campaigns become much less daunting. Turn 1 in the full campaign is still very time-consuming, but the turn time tends to diminish substantially as you get into a groove, with the exception of particularly critical crisis points that require extra careful planning. Either way, the full campaign is certainly something that could be your main game for a year if you end up enjoying it as many wargamers do. Otherwise the smaller scenarios will give you quite a few fun <=20 hour wargame experiences.

Regards,

- Erik



GloriousRuse -> RE: WitE2 enjoyable for fans of HoI and Strategic Command? (3/9/2021 11:10:33 PM)

One thing to consider is that while HOI is primarily a grand strategy game, and SC is fundamentally a strategic game, WITE2 shifts between tactical-operational and operational-strategic. It does those two levels, in my opinion, quite well and in a manner that has a whole lot of verisimilitude when it comes down to it. There are very few games that really get at the meat of the WW2 operational level (not even, ironically, TOAW to my mind). This one does.

What it isn’t is a big S strategic game for the most part. The objectives, policies, and to a lesser degree allocation of resources have been set from on high. You might make one or two big strategic decisions in a full year (52 turns) of play, and you’ll make them in your head when you craft an overall plan, not on an interface click. A lot of times the correlation of forces in an area won’t be apparent until it is too late to easily change, logistics and fatigue can hit your army before you realize it’s been gutted, and tactical setbacks and unexpected victories can re-arrange a short term plan while you have to keep your eyes on the long prize. If your cup of tea is building 21 panzer divisions in 1938 and pointing them at Moscow with a “get me that and let’s hope they didn’t see this coming” order, this isn’t the game. If it’s trying for a surprise sea lion to suddenly allow you to refocus east, this isn’t the place either.

But if you want to really feel how the war in the east became the war in the east...can’t say there’s anything better on the market.




ObeseMonkey -> RE: WitE2 enjoyable for fans of HoI and Strategic Command? (3/9/2021 11:16:50 PM)

Depends what you want out of the game? I started with HOI, then Black ice and then found War in the East/West/Pacific when I was searching for a more realistic 'simulation' of world war 2 than those.
Whilst these (Gary Grisby) are still games, they certainly fall much more on the 'sim' side than Strategic command or HOI. I still play those but only when I want to do something less historical or don't want to think too much.
If you do want to jump in though, this one seems the best to do so. The manaual is really really good imo (from what I've seen) and the ability to use AI for air war and other aspects will aid a new player alot.

I'd also echo ranknfile, except I think WIPAE gets its own 4th category lol



Wargamer40 -> RE: WitE2 enjoyable for fans of HoI and Strategic Command? (3/10/2021 5:45:11 AM)

So up front I own WITE1 and WITW. I have played thousands of hours of WITE1. Other than the minimalist air options, it is a fantastic game. No, you can't do anything in 20 hours. Maybe the first couple turns but not the entire 'game'. I have played literally minutes of WITW. Can't get by the overwhelming air segment. Will probably try again at some point, but not anytime soon.
As for WITE2, I am going to wait to see what the reviews are wrt air options. If it is 'too much' like WITW, I may pass for the foreseeable future.
Bottom line, suggest getting WITE1 right now (or when next on sale) and waiting on WITE2. If you like micromanagement, another option is WITP AE. Whole new level of immersion, but turns can last 20 hours. I have played 540 hours of the campaign and am just getting into April 1942 (full campaign Dec 41 til Oct 46).



pbrowne -> RE: WitE2 enjoyable for fans of HoI and Strategic Command? (3/10/2021 7:20:06 AM)

I will dive in here as someone very new to WITW and WITE also having come from a history of strategic games, include Command: Modern Operations (CMO). I also come to this game with a love of history, especially WW2.

The nice thing about CMO is that though there is deep technical depth to the game, scenarios can be quite short or long and involved operations, but game play is relatively straightforward. Not yet having played WITE 1 but having pre-ordered WITE 2 (with hard cover manual), I expect that the full campaign is what it was...long and arduous (the latter depending on your level of experience and grognardness).

I have just started playing WITW as a precursor to WITE 2. I feel that WITW can be played with shorter campaigns (as probably is the case with WITE) and I have more knowledge of the Mediterranean and European theaters, which is good to build some self-confidence before the Eastern Front...at least to me.

[image]local://upfiles/73349/DCE9CD97297D43B180017D370593AC5B.jpg[/image]

At the moment I just started with Background Italy 43-44 which starts with Operation Husky in Sicily, which itself is a nice contained scenario before moving on to the rest of Italy.

Anyway, that's my game plan. While learning that campaign, I am following Pewpewchewchew's excellent video series:

https://www.youtube.com/c/Pewpewchewchew/search?query=Gary%20Grigsby%27s%20War%20In%20The%20West

I certainly don't regard WITW or WITE as simply games, more as immersive, replayable histories that contain more detailed data than any single book will give you. If your aim is to learn history and play strategy games, then it's a ++.

I think it would help to have a few good specific history books to read at that same time for background.

For Siciliy and Italy, I'm reading Rick Atkinson's excellent book The Day of Battle: The War in Sicily and Italy, 1943-1944 (The Liberation Trilogy, 2)

https://www.amazon.com/Day-Battle-1943-1944-Liberation-Trilogy/dp/080508861X



sillyflower -> RE: WitE2 enjoyable for fans of HoI and Strategic Command? (3/10/2021 8:43:46 AM)

The answer to the qu. posed in the heading is 'yes'. I've played a lot of probably all versions of HOI except HOI4, and of SC.

WiTE is more complex and time consuming, and PvP is not for those of a nervous disposition.
Re the price value question, the cost of electricity for having my computer on all the hours that I have played it is probably more than I paid for the game. The only other form of entertainment I can think of at the moment which is cheaper by the hour is something that I can't mention on a family-friendly forum.



Quivis -> RE: WitE2 enjoyable for fans of HoI and Strategic Command? (3/10/2021 9:03:15 AM)

If you are not certain about this game, you can do as I did. Buy War in the West when on discount (it’s like -70%).

Start by reading Players Handbook (it’s around 30 pages, and it covers briefly everything). Than start playing with brief scenarios (Introductory Husky first). These can be finished in an evening or two. You can reply such scenarios in order to get better and better without frustration, as a few hours is enough to finish one. You’ll go into more and more details while playing the brief scenarios and heading toward longer ones.

IMO the game is not that difficult or time-consuming as everyone says (at least on the basic level of detail enough to win against AI on normal). That opinion scares away new players. Of course, if the first thing you do in these games is to start the 1941 campaign on the whole Easter Front, you’ll run away quickly. [;)]



ranknfile -> RE: WitE2 enjoyable for fans of HoI and Strategic Command? (3/10/2021 3:46:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Have to say I wouldn't have used the word monotonous, but certainly it can be all-consuming....


I certainly meant no insult by that description.

Since the 5th March video I have completely stopped playing my daily computer wargames; and I have - every day - aggravated my woman with the time I spend perusing this board and going over the pfd manual downloads for WitE2.

I'm already consumed by it and I don't yet have access to the game.

I put in for the Beta, but understand not all are accepted.
Of course I pre-ordered.

I'm hooked!



alty59 -> RE: WitE2 enjoyable for fans of HoI and Strategic Command? (3/10/2021 8:06:48 PM)

Of course I pre-ordered


Idem...



drommarnas -> RE: WitE2 enjoyable for fans of HoI and Strategic Command? (3/11/2021 8:14:53 PM)

Thanks for the replies!
I got some 3,000 hours down in HoI4 and probably way more in HoI1 and HoI2 (third one sucked). I guess, I'm more of a "finish one playthrough in 2-3 sessions" kind of player.
Will probably stick with that level of complexity instead of trying WitE2. I'd happily pay 100 or 200 bucks for a game I'm confident in getting a couple thousand hours of fun from. Will follow the reviews and some YouTube vids, but not pre-order as of yet.

I'm glad that there are such complex strategy games still existing in an era where 90% of people are mindlessly playing first-person shooters on Playstation like braindead zombies.



James80 -> RE: WitE2 enjoyable for fans of HoI and Strategic Command? (3/12/2021 1:52:56 PM)

I am in the same boat as the op. I really like the idea of this game and I love the manual. But if I play the game (WitE 1), I often can't figure out why something doesn't work. I've never quite figured out what kind of difference special support units provide (eg.how much cv? - when should I use a Nebelwerfer and when artillery). Any help to get into this game is appreciated.



Erik Rutins -> RE: WitE2 enjoyable for fans of HoI and Strategic Command? (3/12/2021 3:10:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: drommarnas
I got some 3,000 hours down in HoI4 and probably way more in HoI1 and HoI2 (third one sucked). I guess, I'm more of a "finish one playthrough in 2-3 sessions" kind of player.
Will probably stick with that level of complexity instead of trying WitE2. I'd happily pay 100 or 200 bucks for a game I'm confident in getting a couple thousand hours of fun from. Will follow the reviews and some YouTube vids, but not pre-order as of yet.


Honestly, the level of complexity between an advanced HOI game and WITE2 is not far apart and with the hours you've invested in HOI, I think you'd likely get the same level of enjoyment out of WITE2. It's just a much longer term commitment to complete an entire campaign vs. a scenario.

quote:

I'm glad that there are such complex strategy games still existing in an era where 90% of people are mindlessly playing first-person shooters on Playstation like braindead zombies.


Thanks, that's a large part of why we exist, to make sure such games keep getting made. [8D]



loki100 -> RE: WitE2 enjoyable for fans of HoI and Strategic Command? (3/12/2021 3:13:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: James80

I am in the same boat as the op. I really like the idea of this game and I love the manual. But if I play the game (WitE 1), I often can't figure out why something doesn't work. I've never quite figured out what kind of difference special support units provide (eg.how much cv? - when should I use a Nebelwerfer and when artillery). Any help to get into this game is appreciated.


some of this I think is taking it pragmatically. I realise its frustrating when you have these choices and its very hard to work out which to choose or the consequences. That is one reason why air combat (both A2A and A2G) are covered in more detail in the manual - we invite you to pick aircraft/load outs, its only fair to have some idea what your choices mean.

I'd suggest 3 things (& these are mostly a matter of mindset)

1 - in the end its a divisional game, so think in those terms
2 - use all the AI help, till you decide you don't want to (& you may well never do this)
3 - if it worked historically, its probably a good idea in game

Add on, a dollop of commonsense. Having high priority depots close to the front and less important ones reaching back to your supply sources is relatively commonsense. Same as concentrating your aircraft etc.

The issue with SUs is that some are rare. You'll never get them were they are always of the most use, so in the main the key is to get them concentrated on key sectors where they are most likely to be of some use. The AI SU allocation routine does just that.

Then there are a few game constructs that really matter. CPP retention, super-depots, admin movement etc, focus on those not which SU is firing somewhere near Smolensk on T4.



Erik Rutins -> RE: WitE2 enjoyable for fans of HoI and Strategic Command? (3/12/2021 3:18:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: James80
I am in the same boat as the op. I really like the idea of this game and I love the manual. But if I play the game (WitE 1), I often can't figure out why something doesn't work. I've never quite figured out what kind of difference special support units provide (eg.how much cv? - when should I use a Nebelwerfer and when artillery). Any help to get into this game is appreciated.


I'm sure a lot of folks would be happy to help you, including showing you the ropes once the game is released and answering any questions you may have. There's a lot to learn historically but WITE2 is a great way to learn that history, it's sort of a game and an encyclopedia on the Eastern Front of WW2 combined into one.

Responding to your specific questions, support units are quite varied and some will provide a significant boost to CV (which if you manually attach them to a unit you'll see reflected in a change in that unit's CV value) while others will help more in just providing some anti-air, anti-armor or engineering abilities that a unit might not organically have. You can keep your support units at the Corps level (or the Army level, best for artillery) and let your digital commanders figure out when and where it's best to commit them, or you can assign them yourself for the most control at the cost of flexibility.

Nebelwerfers and Artillery are typically corp/army level support assets that are left there and committed to multiple battles, either on offense or defense, to add disruption and cause some casualties to the enemy's attack or defense. In large numbers, they can have a significant effect but one of their best qualities is the likelihood that they'll be able to support multiple battles in a turn. Historically Nebelwerfers (rocket artillery - the German equivalent of the Russian Katyusha) were shorter range, more limited ammunition and less accurate but rapid fire and when concentrated were terrifying to be on the receiving end of and could cause a lot of damage especially when you were facing a massed enemy force. Conventional artillery was longer-range, slower firing but more consistent fire, the workhorse of indirect fire support along with the very short range mortars that were organic to the combat units themselves.

In the game, reading through the manual section that covers artillery and support units will definitely help and looking at the in-game stats for the different unit equipment can also inform, but in general at this scale you can largely treat all non-siege/super-heavy artillery as fairly interchangeable and just make sure each corps and army has enough to help out when its needed.

Regards,

- Erik



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