Mediterannean war

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fran52 -> Mediterannean war (3/12/2021 6:22:19 AM)
I've been looking for a game that reproduces the war in the Mediterranean but no one meets my requirements. Desert war is an wego and i prefer igougo. Obviously the focus is on North Africa but you could add Malta, Crete and Gibraltar. What is missing from the commercial games is the naval war between the Italian and British navies. War that translates into war for convoys, with the problem of getting supplies to Tripoli by the Italian navy and to Malta or Alessandria for the British. Obviously,air attacks with torpedos should also be covered. We find an infinite number of games dealing with the same theme (ex.war in russia) but very little on the mediterranean and and this could be a starting point for some developers,if it is developed with a high level of detail. The games could cover many what if.

warspite1 -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/12/2021 7:53:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fran52 I've been looking for a game that reproduces the war in the Mediterranean but no one meets my requirements. Desert war is an wego and i prefer igougo. Obviously the focus is on North Africa but you could add Malta, Crete and Gibraltar. What is missing from the commercial games is the naval war between the Italian and British navies. War that translates into war for convoys, with the problem of getting supplies to Tripoli by the Italian navy and to Malta or Alessandria for the British. Obviously,air attacks with torpedos should also be covered. We find an infinite number of games dealing with the same theme (ex.war in russia) but very little on the mediterranean and and this could be a starting point for some developers,if it is developed with a high level of detail. The games could cover many what if. warspite1 Lol - you've echoed my anguished cries for this over the years!! The Mediterranean War actually had more naval engagements than the Pacific War. In terms of attraxcting wargamers from across the world, the number of countries involved was high - US, almost all Commonwealth dominions, French, Greek, Italian, German (plus hosts of conquered nations fighting with the Commonwealth - Poles, Czechs etc) and possibly Spanish and Turkish. All manner of warfare was undertaken: submarine, naval surface warfare, merchant marine, paradrops, tanks, infantry, commandoes, special forces (naval), air warfare, naval air warfare strategic bombing etc etc etc. about the only thing the campaign didn't have was carrier vs carrier warfare. It is truly a campaign that could have been won by either side. Economics seems to dictate we get more Bulge games, or Eastern Front games or war in the west after the war had been practically decided, but this fascinating campaign from June 1940 - May 1943 gets overlooked. How this subject cries out for a detailed, serious game covering land, air and sea. But I suspect it's never going to happen...[:(]

Piteas -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/12/2021 2:29:06 PM)
Also my dream. A 1940-43 game in all the mediterranean sea (with "what if" scenarios as Gibraltar). But Rommel and his AK seem the only stars in this front [8\|]

warspite1 -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/12/2021 2:40:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Piteas Also my dream. A 1940-43 game in all the mediterranean sea (with "what if" scenarios as Gibraltar). But Rommel and his AK seem the only stars in this front [8\|] warspite1 Lol - yes, I bet even if one was brought out it would be called Rommel's war or some such cobblers and start in February 1941 [8\|]

RangerJoe -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/12/2021 2:58:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 quote: ORIGINAL: Piteas Also my dream. A 1940-43 game in all the mediterranean sea (with "what if" scenarios as Gibraltar). But Rommel and his AK seem the only stars in this front [8\|] warspite1 Lol - yes, I bet even if one was brought out it would be called Rommel's war or some such cobblers and start in February 1941 [8\|] Call it "The Desert Fox" and show a British officer . . . [:D]

Lobster -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/12/2021 3:08:59 PM)
Call it A Desert Too Far and a mug shot of Mussolini and Hitler. [image]local://upfiles/45799/39F44EBD3AB84D6B98E5B9373BC179B2.jpg[/image] OOOPS...wrong one. [image]local://upfiles/45799/B139964219244F898A3E6D18E96DC720.jpg[/image]

DeepBlack -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/12/2021 3:36:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lobster a mug shot of Mussolini and Hitler. Speaking of Mussolini, I grew up seeing documentaries of him dressed in his military uniform, standing on a balcony, giving bombastic speeches to adoring crowds below. Not knowing a word of Italian, I did not have a clue what he was saying. Later, I discovered he could speak English reasonably well and there is an old speech he gave meant for Italian immigrants in North America. Many of you may have already seen it but if not, it is quite startling to hear him in English. Mussolini speaks in English

RangerJoe -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/12/2021 3:57:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lobster Call it A Desert Too Far and a mug shot of Mussolini and Hitler. [image]local://upfiles/45799/39F44EBD3AB84D6B98E5B9373BC179B2.jpg[/image] OOOPS...wrong one. [image]local://upfiles/45799/B139964219244F898A3E6D18E96DC720.jpg[/image] Here is one flag that they could put on the box! [image]local://upfiles/52896/83100386EEC54338A3AC4C2AD03D83C3.jpg[/image]

RangerJoe -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/12/2021 4:01:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DeepBlack quote: ORIGINAL: Lobster a mug shot of Mussolini and Hitler. Speaking of Mussolini, I grew up seeing documentaries of him dressed in his military uniform, standing on a balcony, giving bombastic speeches to adoring crowds below. Not knowing a word of Italian, I did not have a clue what he was saying. Later, I discovered he could speak English reasonably well and there is an old speech he gave meant for Italian immigrants in North America. Many of you may have already seen it but if not, it is quite startling to hear him in English. Mussolini speaks in English Grazie!

warspite1 -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/12/2021 4:25:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 quote: ORIGINAL: Piteas Also my dream. A 1940-43 game in all the mediterranean sea (with "what if" scenarios as Gibraltar). But Rommel and his AK seem the only stars in this front [8\|] warspite1 Lol - yes, I bet even if one was brought out it would be called Rommel's war or some such cobblers and start in February 1941 [8\|] Call it "The Desert Fox" and show a British officer . . . [:D] warspite1 Indeed - or they could take a leaf out of GG games, and War In the East, War In The West and War in the Pacific, and call it War In The Mediterranean [:D]

RangerJoe -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/12/2021 4:27:41 PM)
Just use the engine for one of those games, the data as well but use a new map . . . [8\|]

warspite1 -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/12/2021 4:31:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe Just use the engine for one of those games, the data as well but use a new map . . . [8\|] warspite1 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO The land war engine for WITP-AE is no good for WITM and the naval war for WITE and WITW is no good for WITM either. We are talking the dog's dangly bits of a game. Detailed naval warfare on an individual ship basis, and land units at battalion size.

TulliusDetritus -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/12/2021 5:06:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe Just use the engine for one of those games, the data as well but use a new map . . . [8\|] warspite1 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO The land war engine for WITP-AE is no good for WITM and the naval war for WITE and WITW is no good for WITM either. One of the biggest myths again. The land war works fine for an OPERATIONAL game [The question is do you want an operational or tactical game?]. I have played the game non stop since 2004 or first iteration therefore I think I know what I am talking about. Hexes = 40 miles. In a much smaller scenario as the Mediterranean, hexes might be = 10... or 5 miles [;)] Where's the problem exactly? [&:] Daily turns. You push your counters, they meet the enemy = your orders, generalissimo? Defend, deliberate, bombard or shock attack? As I see it, the closest thing you'll get as we speak is a modded scenario of current WITP AE. Battalions you say. Pffft. Amateurs [:'(] I have Australian sections trolling in New Guinea. Just for the record I also played (PBEM) the other monster operational game WITE. When almost everybody was massing (a thick carpet) the Soviet units to stop the Wehrmacht, I decided I'd be imitating real life and used consecutive defensive lines. Looks like the engine was good because with this real strategy (carpets were a fantasy) historical outcomes were more or less achieved (I even got Guards status armies before the first winter). In other words, I know how to conduct land operations in operational games. You need a mod, Warspite. Besides, WITP AE is a LOGISTICAL DREAM, exactly what you need in your theater.

RangerJoe -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/12/2021 5:17:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe Just use the engine for one of those games, the data as well but use a new map . . . [8\|] warspite1 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO The land war engine for WITP-AE is no good for WITM and the naval war for WITE and WITW is no good for WITM either. We are talking the dog's dangly bits of a game. Detailed naval warfare on an individual ship basis, and land units at battalion size. Use whatever engine works best for the naval, the air, and the land forces then integrate them. It may take recoding them but those would be the starting points.

RangerJoe -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/12/2021 5:21:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe Just use the engine for one of those games, the data as well but use a new map . . . [8\|] warspite1 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO The land war engine for WITP-AE is no good for WITM and the naval war for WITE and WITW is no good for WITM either. One of the biggest myths again. The land war works fine for an OPERATIONAL game [The question is do you want an operational or tactical game?]. I have played the game non stop since 2004 or first iteration therefore I think I know what I am talking about. Hexes = 40 miles. In a much smaller scenario as the Mediterranean, hexes might be = 10... or 5 miles [;)] Where's the problem exactly? [&:] Daily turns. You push your counters, they meet the enemy = your orders, generalissimo? Defend, deliberate, bombard or shock attack? As I see it, the closest thing you'll get as we speak is a modded scenario of current WITP AE. Battalions you say. Pffft. Amateurs [:'(] I have Australian sections trolling in New Guinea. Just for the record I also played (PBEM) the other monster operational game WITE. When almost everybody was massing (a thick carpet) the Soviet units to stop the Wehrmacht, I decided I'd be imitating real life and used consecutive defensive lines. Looks like the engine was good because with this real strategy (carpets were a fantasy) historical outcomes were more or less achieved (I even got Guards status armies before the first winter). In other words, I know how to conduct land operations in operational games. You need a mod, Warspite. Besides, WITP AE is a LOGISTICAL DREAM, exactly what you need in your theater. There are people who have even modded German and Italian units into WITP:AE so that information is already there.

TulliusDetritus -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/12/2021 5:37:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe There are people who have even modded German and Italian units into WITP:AE so that information is already there. I know, I was very active in the forum when a Spanish guy (Fremen iirc) made and shared this mod, which I downloaded. Good stuff. No AI though. And old WITP had some problems: no way to stop the bomber planes from attacking let's say murderous spots = maximum range was not available as an option.

IslandInland -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/12/2021 10:49:40 PM)
We need the air/land war engine of WITW or WITE 2 coupled with WITPAE for the naval aspect. I would pay �100 for such a game if it covered the WW II Med theatre.

TulliusDetritus -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/12/2021 11:55:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IslandInland We need the air/land war engine of WITW or WITE 2 coupled with WITPAE for the naval aspect. I would pay �100 for such a game if it covered the WW II Med theatre. The problem with Warspite's dream is that he wants a very detailed game (= WITP AE that is, there's no other candidate out there). It's simple: who's going to make it? It's clear a WitM would not suffice. The naval and logistical war would be missing or very simplified.

IslandInland -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/13/2021 12:21:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus quote: ORIGINAL: IslandInland We need the air/land war engine of WITW or WITE 2 coupled with WITPAE for the naval aspect. I would pay �100 for such a game if it covered the WW II Med theatre. The problem with Warspite's dream is that he wants a very detailed game (= WITP AE that is, there's no other candidate out there). It's simple: who's going to make it? It's clear a WitM would not suffice. The naval and logistical war would be missing or very simplified. 2By3 are the only candidates to make it. 2By3 made the original War In The Pacific as well as WITW, WITE and WITE 2. Their logistical models are highly complex particularly in WITW and WITE 2. I don't see any one else capable of making such a game. If made by 2By3 the naval and logistical war would be anything but simplified.

warspite1 -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/13/2021 2:06:39 AM)
I am not in the slightest interested in modding WITP-AE for WITM. For the avoidance of doubt that is not to disparage WITP-AE in anyway (which is a hugely successful game that maintains a large and dedicated following). It does however reflect three things: - WITP-AE is now an 'old' game in terms of graphics and presentation. For those frail of dotage, with eyesight to match, this makes the game too hard on the eyes. - The land war is not ideally served (and this is recognised by some WITP-AE players themselves). - Yes, I want a huge level of detail from a WITM game, but I don't want that detail targeted in some of the areas that WITP-AE focuses on. I have acknowledged that my dream game will never happen - certainly not in my lifetime - which is a real shame considering just how ideal the campaign is for wargaming. But that won't stop me plugging this at every opportunity, and it was heartening to see fran52's OP. Anyway, back to reality....

IslandInland -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/13/2021 2:19:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 I am not in the slightest interested in modding WITP-AE for WITM. For the avoidance of doubt that is not to disparage WITP-AE in anyway (which is a hugely successful game that maintains a large and dedicated following). It does however reflect three things: - WITP-AE is now an 'old' game in terms of graphics and presentation. For those frail of dotage, with eyesight to match, this makes the game too hard on the eyes. - The land war is not ideally served (and this is recognised by some WITP-AE players themselves). - Yes, I want a huge level of detail from a WITM game, but I don't want that detail targeted in some of the areas that WITP-AE focuses on. I have acknowledged that my dream game will never happen - certainly not in my lifetime - which is a real shame considering just how ideal the campaign is for wargaming. But that won't stop me plugging this at every opportunity, and it was heartening to see fran52's OP. Anyway, back to reality.... Cheer up. Whether it is made in your lifetime or not the game will not be tailored to your exact specifications unless you fund its development. All human endeavours games included are compromises of some sort or another. I would be happy with any sort of reasonable attempt at a serious WWII Med wargame which treated the naval, air and land battles with equal balance and weight.

warspite1 -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/13/2021 2:29:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IslandInland quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 I am not in the slightest interested in modding WITP-AE for WITM. For the avoidance of doubt that is not to disparage WITP-AE in anyway (which is a hugely successful game that maintains a large and dedicated following). It does however reflect three things: - WITP-AE is now an 'old' game in terms of graphics and presentation. For those frail of dotage, with eyesight to match, this makes the game too hard on the eyes. - The land war is not ideally served (and this is recognised by some WITP-AE players themselves). - Yes, I want a huge level of detail from a WITM game, but I don't want that detail targeted in some of the areas that WITP-AE focuses on. I have acknowledged that my dream game will never happen - certainly not in my lifetime - which is a real shame considering just how ideal the campaign is for wargaming. But that won't stop me plugging this at every opportunity, and it was heartening to see fran52's OP. Anyway, back to reality.... Cheer up. Whether it is made in your lifetime or not the game will not be tailored to your exact specifications unless you fund its development. All human endeavours games included are compromises of some sort or another. I would be happy with any sort of reasonable attempt at a serious WWII Med wargame which treated the naval, air and land battles with equal balance and weight. warspite1 LoL - firstly no need to cheer up, this game hasn't happened by now so I was not exactly pinning my hopes on it [;)] Thank you for pointing out that my exact specifications won't be catered for in a game I acknowledge will never happen [&:] But I have a simple plan to rectify that. I'll just have to win the Euromillions and fund the project myself. Simples [:D] As for what you would be happy for - yes I would obviously be happy for that too. After all provided it makes an honest attempt to reflect the facets of the campaign - naval, land and air - then beggars can't be choosers and it would great to have something. But that does not stop me posting about my dream.

IslandInland -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/13/2021 2:41:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 quote: ORIGINAL: IslandInland quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 I am not in the slightest interested in modding WITP-AE for WITM. For the avoidance of doubt that is not to disparage WITP-AE in anyway (which is a hugely successful game that maintains a large and dedicated following). It does however reflect three things: - WITP-AE is now an 'old' game in terms of graphics and presentation. For those frail of dotage, with eyesight to match, this makes the game too hard on the eyes. - The land war is not ideally served (and this is recognised by some WITP-AE players themselves). - Yes, I want a huge level of detail from a WITM game, but I don't want that detail targeted in some of the areas that WITP-AE focuses on. I have acknowledged that my dream game will never happen - certainly not in my lifetime - which is a real shame considering just how ideal the campaign is for wargaming. But that won't stop me plugging this at every opportunity, and it was heartening to see fran52's OP. Anyway, back to reality.... Cheer up. Whether it is made in your lifetime or not the game will not be tailored to your exact specifications unless you fund its development. All human endeavours games included are compromises of some sort or another. I would be happy with any sort of reasonable attempt at a serious WWII Med wargame which treated the naval, air and land battles with equal balance and weight. warspite1 LoL - firstly no need to cheer up, this game hasn't happened by now so I was not exactly pinning my hopes on it [;)] Thank you for pointing out that my exact specifications won't be catered for in a game I acknowledge will never happen [&:] But I have a simple plan to rectify that. I'll just have to win the Euromillions and fund the project myself. Simples [:D] As for what you would be happy for - yes I would obviously be happy for that too. After all provided it makes an honest attempt to reflect the facets of the campaign - naval, land and air - then beggars can't be choosers and it would great to have something. But that does not stop me posting about my dream. I guess pointing out the obvious engenders this sort of response... Calm down. It's late in England. [8D]

RangerJoe -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/13/2021 2:49:53 AM)
To be totally honest with you, I do not recommend any version of WITE nor WITW for any Mediteranean game. [8D]

warspite1 -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/13/2021 3:00:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IslandInland quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 quote: ORIGINAL: IslandInland quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 I am not in the slightest interested in modding WITP-AE for WITM. For the avoidance of doubt that is not to disparage WITP-AE in anyway (which is a hugely successful game that maintains a large and dedicated following). It does however reflect three things: - WITP-AE is now an 'old' game in terms of graphics and presentation. For those frail of dotage, with eyesight to match, this makes the game too hard on the eyes. - The land war is not ideally served (and this is recognised by some WITP-AE players themselves). - Yes, I want a huge level of detail from a WITM game, but I don't want that detail targeted in some of the areas that WITP-AE focuses on. I have acknowledged that my dream game will never happen - certainly not in my lifetime - which is a real shame considering just how ideal the campaign is for wargaming. But that won't stop me plugging this at every opportunity, and it was heartening to see fran52's OP. Anyway, back to reality.... Cheer up. Whether it is made in your lifetime or not the game will not be tailored to your exact specifications unless you fund its development. All human endeavours games included are compromises of some sort or another. I would be happy with any sort of reasonable attempt at a serious WWII Med wargame which treated the naval, air and land battles with equal balance and weight. warspite1 LoL - firstly no need to cheer up, this game hasn't happened by now so I was not exactly pinning my hopes on it [;)] Thank you for pointing out that my exact specifications won't be catered for in a game I acknowledge will never happen [&:] But I have a simple plan to rectify that. I'll just have to win the Euromillions and fund the project myself. Simples [:D] As for what you would be happy for - yes I would obviously be happy for that too. After all provided it makes an honest attempt to reflect the facets of the campaign - naval, land and air - then beggars can't be choosers and it would great to have something. But that does not stop me posting about my dream. I guess pointing out the obvious engenders this sort of response... Calm down. It's late in England. [8D] warspite1 [&:] No need to calm down, I was just picking up on your points - one of which was indeed statin' the bleedin' obvious (as John Cleese would say). Late in England? No, but its pretty early [:)]

IslandInland -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/13/2021 3:11:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 quote: ORIGINAL: IslandInland quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 quote: ORIGINAL: IslandInland quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 I am not in the slightest interested in modding WITP-AE for WITM. For the avoidance of doubt that is not to disparage WITP-AE in anyway (which is a hugely successful game that maintains a large and dedicated following). It does however reflect three things: - WITP-AE is now an 'old' game in terms of graphics and presentation. For those frail of dotage, with eyesight to match, this makes the game too hard on the eyes. - The land war is not ideally served (and this is recognised by some WITP-AE players themselves). - Yes, I want a huge level of detail from a WITM game, but I don't want that detail targeted in some of the areas that WITP-AE focuses on. I have acknowledged that my dream game will never happen - certainly not in my lifetime - which is a real shame considering just how ideal the campaign is for wargaming. But that won't stop me plugging this at every opportunity, and it was heartening to see fran52's OP. Anyway, back to reality.... Cheer up. Whether it is made in your lifetime or not the game will not be tailored to your exact specifications unless you fund its development. All human endeavours games included are compromises of some sort or another. I would be happy with any sort of reasonable attempt at a serious WWII Med wargame which treated the naval, air and land battles with equal balance and weight. warspite1 LoL - firstly no need to cheer up, this game hasn't happened by now so I was not exactly pinning my hopes on it [;)] Thank you for pointing out that my exact specifications won't be catered for in a game I acknowledge will never happen [&:] But I have a simple plan to rectify that. I'll just have to win the Euromillions and fund the project myself. Simples [:D] As for what you would be happy for - yes I would obviously be happy for that too. After all provided it makes an honest attempt to reflect the facets of the campaign - naval, land and air - then beggars can't be choosers and it would great to have something. But that does not stop me posting about my dream. I guess pointing out the obvious engenders this sort of response... Calm down. It's late in England. [8D] warspite1 [&:] No need to calm down, I was just picking up on your points - one of which was indeed statin' the bleedin' obvious (as John Cleese would say). Late in England? No, but its pretty early [:)] There are always old comedy legends to fall back on. It will be Blackadder next. Bringin' out the big guns. [:D] It's late in England. Or early. But I guess for you it's late unless you get up at 3AM on Saturday morning. So easily annoyed...

warspite1 -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/13/2021 9:24:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Grognerd_INC quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 I am not in the slightest interested in modding WITP-AE for WITM. For the avoidance of doubt that is not to disparage WITP-AE in anyway (which is a hugely successful game that maintains a large and dedicated following). It does however reflect three things: - WITP-AE is now an 'old' game in terms of graphics and presentation. For those frail of dotage, with eyesight to match, this makes the game too hard on the eyes. - The land war is not ideally served (and this is recognised by some WITP-AE players themselves). - Yes, I want a huge level of detail from a WITM game, but I don't want that detail targeted in some of the areas that WITP-AE focuses on. I have acknowledged that my dream game will never happen - certainly not in my lifetime - which is a real shame considering just how ideal the campaign is for wargaming. But that won't stop me plugging this at every opportunity, and it was heartening to see fran52's OP. Anyway, back to reality.... Not to derail your post, but your not alone in the fact you will never see your dream game. I too have a couple of dream games, I will not see either one in my lifetime. (They are not Mediterranean games) warspite1 Well of course. I am sure most (all?) of us have that game (or two [;)]) we'd like to see. I hope you get to see yours - although it doesn't sound promising from what you say.

warspite1 -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/13/2021 9:54:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Grognerd_INC Probably could start a new thread "What is your dream game(s)". I hope you get yours, Avalanche press has a board game on the naval actions of the med, I don't think it covers ground units though. Avalanche Press warspite1 That game looks pricey - but the counters also look extremely well presented... Thanks for sharing - I think I've found a Christmas present [:)]

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