RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!! HLYA(G) vs 821Bobo (S) All are welcome (Full Version)

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HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!! HLYA(G) vs 821Bobo (S) All are welcome (4/23/2021 4:16:19 PM)

Turn 5

Air Phase

Most of the 11th Army is over 89 CPP. Rumanians too are over 85 with low to no fatigue. Should give a good chance of taking Odessa but not 100% sure thing at all. Hence why the Naval interdiction.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/E667617B801B4A6093E2DCD66589064E.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!! HLYA(G) vs 821Bobo (S) All are welcome (4/23/2021 4:21:04 PM)

Turn 5

Air Phase

Of course here is my puny Rumanian for good measure. Hope they take the majority of the losses ;-) I may be a turn per-mature on my attack but hey, why not give it a try.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/3E934B181EB64CB1B6EE20EC226E40BB.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!! HLYA(G) vs 821Bobo (S) All are welcome (4/23/2021 4:22:23 PM)

Grrrr, got to get on a spur of the moment conference call at 12:30. Will post about the North later this afternoon.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!! HLYA(G) vs 821Bobo (S) All are welcome (4/23/2021 5:59:55 PM)

Turn 6

Air Phase

With the North I am presented with two options before the air reconnaissance results show otherwise. I can reseal the pocket and pocket a possible few more units than the pocket contained before. (I have more MOTO units not shown in the picture too) OR I can start the "grinding" of the Soviet Divisions on this front. Both have merit.

I have annotated the sequence to get a possible 4-5 Divisions out of this colored in Orange and Red.

I am leaning towards grinding since I have a mass of infantry almost to the front. Grinding starts degrading the Soviet forces as a whole. What do you all think? Surround or Grinding?

The GS is set up differently based on which I will do.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/6D5581C5F1874EF2AC012E1D49897A35.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!! HLYA(G) vs 821Bobo (S) All are welcome (4/23/2021 6:21:47 PM)

T5

Air Phase

The Center is my whole goal so far in this game. The "lime" color dual track is my ultimate goal for pressing this hard. Currently I see a few units to the north in this picture and a few Armor/Mech along the Dnepr. Looks like the Soviets retreated from this picture and the 3 units I circled in blue in the north of this picture form their front line I would surmise. At least that would be staying with tradition of what happened before. Staying also with tradition should have some form of 2nd line too. I will recon this whole area thoroughly since the center avenue through both of those lines is clear terrain I marked in red. It really boils down to what Soviets are in those yellow spaces. Will see what reconnaissance brings.

I really have to stop playing with crayons on the map ;-P

[image]local://upfiles/53556/AD75A95DD32B4A84BEF9152F3C3D15D8.jpg[/image]



carlkay58 -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!! HLYA(G) vs 821Bobo (S) All are welcome (4/23/2021 6:29:27 PM)

Against a Human opponent grinding is a good option - but if you can encircle them you will do more damage in the short run as you get rid of some units. I don't know if people really realize how effective grinding can be yet. It is one thing to talk about it but until you are on the receiving end of Soviet NM of 50 or less and had a series of deliberate attacks against them will you truly begin to know how effective it can be.

It is more effective against a Human player than the AI because the AI can 'teleport' those units into other areas (or the Reserve) while a player has to move them around in the same area.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!! HLYA(G) vs 821Bobo (S) All are welcome (4/23/2021 6:36:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

Against a Human opponent grinding is a good option - but if you can encircle them you will do more damage in the short run as you get rid of some units. I don't know if people really realize how effective grinding can be yet. It is one thing to talk about it but until you are on the receiving end of Soviet NM of 50 or less and had a series of deliberate attacks against them will you truly begin to know how effective it can be.

It is more effective against a Human player than the AI because the AI can 'teleport' those units into other areas (or the Reserve) while a player has to move them around in the same area.



Yes, grinding really does a number on the Soviets as they have to have a rotation on replacement. Then on top of that the Division comes back with lower Morale and lower experience further escalating the situation. To stablize the front the Soviets will have to throw in more and more units because of the rotation. The losses from 1 turn of grinding can equal a 2 turn surround once you get started.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!! HLYA(G) vs 821Bobo (S) All are welcome (4/23/2021 7:48:50 PM)

Turn 5

After Air Execution

Airborne are defending the river crossing.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/AC8C1953B0874DFEB310497E0CCDFCD2.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!! HLYA(G) vs 821Bobo (S) All are welcome (4/23/2021 7:51:55 PM)

Turn 5

After Air Execution

Primary line but no secondary line? Wonder if running out of units already? Shouldn't be unless the Soviets are stacking in front of Moscow area. Bobo would not go without having a 2nd line is my bet.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/B12E10F649D34948BAEE752E4D67F2D5.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!! HLYA(G) vs 821Bobo (S) All are welcome (4/23/2021 7:53:50 PM)

Turn 5

After Air Execution

Massive amounts of Air-2-Air combat in the Gulf of Odessa.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/9AF1317B1F50436EBB0329BF33D31DDB.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!! HLYA(G) vs 821Bobo (S) All are welcome (4/23/2021 7:55:49 PM)

Turn 5

After Air Execution (Real time updates)

Here is the Naval interdiction for the area.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/6DAA592ECA274257840213C5C925A165.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!! HLYA(G) vs 821Bobo (S) All are welcome (4/23/2021 7:58:06 PM)

Turn 5

After Air Execution

Air Losses from Air Execution

Pretty heavy toll so far :(



[image]local://upfiles/53556/390911ED0BAC4E4199D707E6E5D1D445.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!! HLYA(G) vs 821Bobo (S) All are welcome (4/23/2021 8:08:39 PM)

Turn 5

Ground (real time update)

South pocket clear. Only 1 Hungarian Moto used, rest was infantry to rid the pocket.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/7D8D285D5C954373A1B7F83B9FD5AC12.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!! HLYA(G) vs 821Bobo (S) All are welcome (4/23/2021 8:16:22 PM)

Turn 5

Ground (Real Time Update)

Center pocket done.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/A6E08753D2BF4B11B7200185640672EB.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!! HLYA(G) vs 821Bobo (S) All are welcome (4/23/2021 8:20:20 PM)

Turn 5

Ground (Real Time Update)

Odessa taken 1st assualt. That is "A LOT" of Soviet Mountain units. Units retreated to where I thought but now where will they retreat when I get next to that port? Hmmmmmm.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/3326E6332B7F4A4CACBC0C72CB59EF6C.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!! HLYA(G) vs 821Bobo (S) All are welcome (4/23/2021 8:31:49 PM)

Turn 5

Ground Phase

Looks like Kiev has a City-Fort too. Will form another Corps to City bust Kiev. Will probably set the Army to Assualt to get CPP faster. I don't have much CPP with these Divisions so may be turn 7 attack depending on what I get back on turn 6 being in Assualt mode.

I love free divisions from City-Forts now ;-) It is like Christmas in July and didn't have to waste fuel to surround them. Just don't know how many units in the City Fort yet :(

[image]local://upfiles/53556/40D3F910A931461B841ABA0A9D34834A.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!! HLYA(G) vs 821Bobo (S) All are welcome (4/23/2021 8:39:07 PM)

Turn 5

Ground Center (Real Time Update)

First Airborne brigade routed behind major river. No delay in hex.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/EE7204FD8CC34EA5A62EFFE2963989EF.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!! HLYA(G) vs 821Bobo (S) All are welcome (4/23/2021 8:43:52 PM)

Turn 5

Ground Center (Real time update)

2nd Airborne routed on major river. No delay in hex.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/6646D1816D4245B68DB35C4F83B1FCE7.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!! HLYA(G) vs 821Bobo (S) All are welcome (4/23/2021 8:48:18 PM)

Turn 5

Ground Center (Real Time Update)

Ok, I creeped regiments forward and nothing found in the open. I have to stop there and work from the South now since those units seem to be in swamps I want to go through to do a link up.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/79AA77DDA93549EAB932EC5633FC7C26.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!! HLYA(G) vs 821Bobo (S) All are welcome (4/23/2021 8:58:12 PM)

Turn 5

Ground Center (Real Time update)

I bring up an Armor Division and 2 armor regiments to attack the hex across the minor river. I get a retreat. Please note that I move the Moto regiment across the river so the Infantry would retreat into the forming pocket (I hope). It did if you follow the blue line.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/411B6F2AE08D41EF817CC93AD79795BC.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!! HLYA(G) vs 821Bobo (S) All are welcome (4/23/2021 9:04:14 PM)

Turn 5

Ground Center (Real Time Update)

Mech in swamp. Plus most armor and Mech for the Soviets are under-strength. I don't believe the Soviets would have a good TOE mech division here. So I am going to chance this and this mech is under-strength. I am leaving the Moto split into regiments to hopefully save the MP's on the 2 regiments that didn't do a ZOC to ZOC move.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/7932D162B8634F7E92184370A04727F9.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!! HLYA(G) vs 821Bobo (S) All are welcome (4/23/2021 9:07:07 PM)

Turn 5

Ground Center (Real Time update)

Mech Routed to the North East. I have enough MP's to finish the last two hexes with lots of PZ's and Moto still able to exploit this.

Only left to do is the North attacks and still haven't fully decided. I will think about it more as I go shopping with my wife :( Grrrrr.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/FD2C701AF18B4795A89A974314F640E8.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!! HLYA(G) vs 821Bobo (S) All are welcome (4/23/2021 9:09:04 PM)

Turn 5

Ground Center (Real Time update)

Current snapshot of the Center.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/5B7D14EA74F146F28D3EE3ED9840B840.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!! HLYA(G) vs 821Bobo (S) All are welcome (4/23/2021 10:22:23 PM)

Turn 5

Ground (Real time update) back from shopping with wife!

Odessa retreated units displaced to the following hexes once I got close to them. I still need to take this port though so hope those two MTN divisions go North too on my move to take the port.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/5F5BCAF77B7F42598612D15720AE5F88.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!! HLYA(G) vs 821Bobo (S) All are welcome (4/23/2021 10:24:29 PM)

Turn 5

Ground (Real time update)

Ok GREAT! Looks like the Mtn divisions displaced to the North towns as depicted.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/E5748A0AC8764F2E8B227B66F8632E20.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!! HLYA(G) vs 821Bobo (S) All are welcome (4/24/2021 4:44:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Turn 6

Air Phase

With the North I am presented with two options before the air reconnaissance results show otherwise. I can reseal the pocket and pocket a possible few more units than the pocket contained before. (I have more MOTO units not shown in the picture too) OR I can start the "grinding" of the Soviet Divisions on this front. Both have merit.

I have annotated the sequence to get a possible 4-5 Divisions out of this colored in Orange and Red.

I am leaning towards grinding since I have a mass of infantry almost to the front. Grinding starts degrading the Soviet forces as a whole. What do you all think? Surround or Grinding?

The GS is set up differently based on which I will do.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/6D5581C5F1874EF2AC012E1D49897A35.jpg[/image]


I finally decided to go with "grinding" for 4th PZ and 16th Army. Nothing like deliberate attacking for casualties.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!! HLYA(G) vs 821Bobo (S) All are welcome (4/24/2021 4:46:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

Against a Human opponent grinding is a good option - but if you can encircle them you will do more damage in the short run as you get rid of some units. I don't know if people really realize how effective grinding can be yet. It is one thing to talk about it but until you are on the receiving end of Soviet NM of 50 or less and had a series of deliberate attacks against them will you truly begin to know how effective it can be.

It is more effective against a Human player than the AI because the AI can 'teleport' those units into other areas (or the Reserve) while a player has to move them around in the same area.



Here was one of the typical deliberate attacks. I will have a rotation of Infantry to keep this up continuously for this front area. Had around 8ish Deliberate attacks hexes this turn in that vicinity.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/90F502B3DE314729ABBD8DC5D6C19431.jpg[/image]



Mamluke -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!! HLYA(G) vs 821Bobo (S) All are welcome (4/24/2021 4:50:33 AM)

Amazing AAR and presentation! learning so much here :)

I have play little WITE 2 (got it a few days ago :D )But I Love WITE 1. played the hell out of it.

there are some things that worry me a bit:

1 - Is it too easy to Hasty attack across major rivers?? I understand the opposition are Brigades (but those Soviet airborne are soppose to be good...[&:]) but crossing Large rivers with motorize with simple hasty attacks seams wrong to me. they make it look so easy! well you make playing barbarrossa look easy [:D]

2 - Was Odessa Isolated when the Assault happen? even so. That is a Lot of arty for such a battle :O . reminds me of the Documentary Soviet Storm about Sevastopol, how Mainstain arrange as much arty as possible to bombard the City. Do you think the Victory here in Odessa was... "fair" (for lack of a better word) I know in History, it was just the Romanians sieging the city. But taking Odessa early on seams to always work.

3 - watching all those Mountain divisions getting reck and pocketed hurts me :(
when playing as the Soviets in WITE Those are my favorite Divisions!! you can't train any more and they are a beast in the winter. Not to mention their performance in the Mountains :D
How many did Bobo lose?? must be like 5 or more Mountain divisions.... [:(]

Keep up the Great work! following this AAR with atecepation [&o][&o][&o][&o]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!! HLYA(G) vs 821Bobo (S) All are welcome (4/24/2021 4:59:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mamluke

Amazing AAR and presentation! learning so much here :)

I have play little WITE 2 (got it a few days ago :D )But I Love WITE 1. played the hell out of it.

there are some things that worry me a bit:

1 - Is it too easy to Hasty attack across major rivers?? I understand the opposition are Brigades (but those Soviet airborne are soppose to be good...[&:]) but crossing Large rivers with motorize with simple hasty attacks seams wrong to me. they make it look so easy! well you make playing barbarrossa look easy [:D]

2 - Was Odessa Isolated when the Assault happen? even so. That is a Lot of arty for such a battle :O . reminds me of the Documentary Soviet Storm about Sevastopol, how Mainstain arrange as much arty as possible to bombard the City. Do you think the Victory here in Odessa was... "fair" (for lack of a better word) I know in History, it was just the Romanians sieging the city. But taking Odessa early on seams to always work.

3 - watching all those Mountain divisions getting reck and pocketed hurts me :(
when playing as the Soviets in WITE Those are my favorite Divisions!! you can't train any more and they are a beast in the winter. Not to mention their performance in the Mountains :D
How many did Bobo lose?? must be like 5 or more Mountain divisions.... [:(]

Keep up the Great work! following this AAR with atecepation [&o][&o][&o][&o]


Thank you! I did this in WITE1 too.

1. Airborne Brigades aren't what they used to be in WITE1. They will route or shatter pretty easily if TOE isn't kept up. Cav is the same way from what I have seen too.

2. Odessa was not isolated. I had been saving up CPP points and had zero fatigue on my German infantry. That is the major key when attacking City-Forts that I have noticed. Ya, I had a few pieces of Artillery which also helps ;-)

3. He hasn't lost the units yet because they could retreat out because I did not have Odessa isolated. I did end up getting them surrounded this turn which I am getting ready to post. I counted 5 Mtn Divisions and 1 reg Inf.

I have 2 other AAR's too still on going and 1 more I am just starting for 4 total. That is all I can handle with work and this.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!! HLYA(G) vs 821Bobo (S) All are welcome (4/24/2021 5:00:58 AM)

Turn 5

South Front

Odessa Area

Was able to take the far port in the picture and double screen any type of rescue this time.

All 5 of the Mountain Divisions, the 1 Inf division are within that pocket from Odessa, along with original inf division and mech division from the broken pocket from last turn and the added other bonus of 3 division it looks like in Nikolaev

[image]local://upfiles/53556/C10202DBFC7B40FDBDF26B301546026A.jpg[/image]



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