Couple Quick Questions (Full Version)

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neuromancer -> Couple Quick Questions (3/26/2021 7:06:55 PM)

I am wondering if two of the things that bothered me the most about WitE have been fixed in WitE2?

1. Teleporting units. In WitE an encircled unit had to be reduced in a particular manner, if they were not they teleported out of the Encirclement through some sort of weird magic. And on the other hand (IIRC, it's been a long time since I played) if you did it right the defending unit(s) just gave up without a shot. Neither is correct. While units did escape partial encirclement (Kiev) they didn't teleport dozens of miles in the process! And some soldiers could slip out through enemy lines (the enemy isn't standing shoulder to shoulder after all), they were not combat viable formations, they were scattered squads at best (return to the manpower pool would be the best idea). Additionally few units actually surrendered without a shot, in 1941 some of the most costly engagements for the Germans (before the Winter( involved reducing surrounded units who tended to fight like demons until they were out of ammo or dead (seemed to me the 1941 Soviet Army did its best fighting when its back was to the wall).

Has the encirclement mechanics in WitE2 been completely rebuilt to not be so silly?

2. 1942 Trench Warfare. In WitE even if you did well as the Acis in 1941, come 1942 it was nearly impossible to advance because the Soviets were so deeply entrenched 1942 became more like 1915 in the West. Historically 1942 in the East was a fluid back and forth of the Soviets being pushed back and then in return regaining lost ground. This is admittedly something that several East Front games I've played have a large problem with modeling (which causes some to skip trying to model it and just focus on Barbarossa, or only do scenarios specifically designed to recreate the circumstances(.

Has the Defensive AI and defensive mechanics been redesigned to prevent this 'trench warfare' in the East, or is there still no point in trying to go from 1941 to 1942?



Hope someone can answer these questions.

And objective answers only, please, fanboys that think WitE was perfect - or that approve of anything that helps the Soviets win in half the time they really did - need not reply.
Thank you.



Jeff_Ahl -> RE: Couple Quick Questions (3/26/2021 7:45:18 PM)

Thinking of buying the game, but if the entrenchment thing is real I suppose I sit it out until it is fixed?

Do anybody else think this was a huge problem in the old game?



neuromancer -> RE: Couple Quick Questions (3/26/2021 7:50:36 PM)

There was a fair amount of talk about it on the forum way back in the day. I stopped even trying to play the game after less than a year and didn't keep up with what was going on, so maybe they eventually fixed it in the original game, but I doubt it.



Jeff_Ahl -> RE: Couple Quick Questions (3/26/2021 8:00:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: neuromancer

There was a fair amount of talk about it on the forum way back in the day. I stopped even trying to play the game after less than a year and didn't keep up with what was going on, so maybe they eventually fixed it in the original game, but I doubt it.


Feels very strange if there is no reasonable entrencment cap. A normal inf unit can only entrench that much with out pioneers/engineers and construction units.

I really hope someone can come up with something that proves this to not be a problem. Really looking good otherwise, but this kind of problems may ruin an otherwise great game.



821Bobo -> RE: Couple Quick Questions (3/26/2021 8:01:55 PM)

quote:

Fortification Level 5: Cannot be built during the game.

Fortification Level 4: Must have a fort unit in the hex and
the hex must either be City/Urban/Heavy Urban terrain
or contain a port (of any size). Once built, no unit is not
needed to keep the level 4 fortification.

Fortification Levels 2 or 3: Must either be 1) adjacent to
an enemy hex, or 2) a City/Urban/Heavy Urban terrain
hex, or 3) contain a port (of any size), or 4) contain a
fortified zone unit in the hex. Once the level 3 is reached,
the condition does not have to continue to be met to
keep the level 3 fortification.

Fortification Level 1: Must be within 20 hexes


So you basically can't build line of level 3 forts running from Leningrad down to Azov because you would need to build fort in every hex. Sure, units in contact with enough time given can dig to level 3 but once you achieve breakthrough enemy won't have time to dig in.



M60A3TTS -> RE: Couple Quick Questions (3/26/2021 8:02:37 PM)

If it helps any, regarding #2 each side is limited to 40 forts on the map at any given time. Fort belts at least in early WiTE were a thing.



Jeff_Ahl -> RE: Couple Quick Questions (3/26/2021 8:52:25 PM)

Well sounds like that issue is of the past then.

I'll will purchase this monster and give it a go!



Joel Billings -> RE: Couple Quick Questions (3/26/2021 9:17:37 PM)

As for #1, the basic mechanism is still in play. You must isolate a unit to keep it from being able to rout move away. In order to isolate it you must encircle it and keep it encircled until your next turn. Each turn is 1 week, so the only way to trap units is to surround them and keep them surrounded until your next turn. If you attack them on the turn they are first surrounded, it assumes that the lines are still fluid and they could get away. This allows us to simulate the closed and sealed pockets versus those that were not secure and allowed units to get away.



loki100 -> RE: Couple Quick Questions (3/26/2021 10:49:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: neuromancer

...

Has the encirclement mechanics in WitE2 been completely rebuilt to not be so silly?

2. 1942 Trench Warfare. In WitE even if you did well as the Acis in 1941, come 1942 it was nearly impossible to advance because the Soviets were so deeply entrenched 1942 became more like 1915 in the West. Historically 1942 in the East was a fluid back and forth of the Soviets being pushed back and then in return regaining lost ground. This is admittedly something that several East Front games I've played have a large problem with modeling (which causes some to skip trying to model it and just focus on Barbarossa, or only do scenarios specifically designed to recreate the circumstances(.

Has the Defensive AI and defensive mechanics been redesigned to prevent this 'trench warfare' in the East, or is there still no point in trying to go from 1941 to 1942?


...



2 - worth remembering that in #2 being pushed back and having low morale/exp/TOE leads to heavy losses - so there are a lot more ways for the Axis to generate mobile warfare in 1942 - and for the Soviets 1944 +

I've not seen anything like your description in the test games. Yes breaking a well fortified line can be a bit of an effort (it should be) but its fairly easy to generate the situation for mobile warfare due to the game mechanics



neuromancer -> RE: Couple Quick Questions (3/27/2021 6:03:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo
So you basically can't build line of level 3 forts running from Leningrad down to Azov because you would need to build fort in every hex. Sure, units in contact with enough time given can dig to level 3 but once you achieve breakthrough enemy won't have time to dig in.


Excellent, that is very good to hear. That really made going from '41 into '42 almost impossible in the previous game.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings
As for #1, the basic mechanism is still in play. You must isolate a unit to keep it from being able to rout move away. In order to isolate it you must encircle it and keep it encircled until your next turn. Each turn is 1 week, so the only way to trap units is to surround them and keep them surrounded until your next turn. If you attack them on the turn they are first surrounded, it assumes that the lines are still fluid and they could get away. This allows us to simulate the closed and sealed pockets versus those that were not secure and allowed units to get away.


Okay, that's reasonable, although I hope they take a lot of casualties in the process.
I also hope they don't teleport further than they could have moved as well, being able to ignore a zone of control - or maybe 'pass through' an enemy unit - for a one or even two hex retreat is reasonable in the circumstances you describe, but it shouldn't be cheap. I would think it would be tied to current supply levels as well. A unit low on ammo and fuel is less likely to get far than one in still fighting condition and conducting a breakout in the course of their retreat.
I actually read about Manstein (think it was him, 4th Panzer Group) getting cut off in the north in 1941, but he still had ammo and fuel so simply fought his way back through the Soviet lines and rejoined the rest of the group. The blocking force probably wasn't that strong though.


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

2 - worth remembering that in #2 being pushed back and having low morale/exp/TOE leads to heavy losses - so there are a lot more ways for the Axis to generate mobile warfare in 1942 - and for the Soviets 1944 +

I've not seen anything like your description in the test games. Yes breaking a well fortified line can be a bit of an effort (it should be) but its fairly easy to generate the situation for mobile warfare due to the game mechanics



Good, good, sounds like this was fixed in the new game.


The first point about encirclement was more a pet peeve than anything, I just felt it could have been handled a lot better. Sounds like it still could use improvement, but I think I did learn to live with it. I suspect it was more a 'design for effect' thing than design for realism (i.e. making the player tie up forces to reduce those pocketed forces than being able to quickly make them surrender and move on, which - as I said - didn't actually happen that much).

The second point about East Front Trench Warfare, that was more of a deal breaker. But it really sounds that they fixed it, and with simply limiting the ability to entrench in the course of the game so that the Soviet conscripts with inadequate supplies aren't somehow assembling the Maginot line in the middle of the steppes! [X(]

Glad to hear it, thanks for the replies. [&o]



Medicusa -> RE: Couple Quick Questions (3/27/2021 9:31:12 AM)

About quick questions:
How exactly does interdiction work? If I create an inderdiction value of 4 on a field, does this mean the enemy has to pay 4 MP to move out of that hex?

How much interdiction can I stack on a field?

Does it matter if I interdict 7 days or just 1?

And why do my bombers sometimes get no escorts even though in the planning screen it said there are escorts assigned (in the result screen they show this with (XX)).



loki100 -> RE: Couple Quick Questions (3/27/2021 10:56:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Medicusa

About quick questions:
How exactly does interdiction work? If I create an inderdiction value of 4 on a field, does this mean the enemy has to pay 4 MP to move out of that hex?

How much interdiction can I stack on a field?

Does it matter if I interdict 7 days or just 1?

And why do my bombers sometimes get no escorts even though in the planning screen it said there are escorts assigned (in the result screen they show this with (XX)).


1 - see the table in 38.7.2 for the relative effects, level 4 interdiction imposes a +1 MP on motorised units that exit the hex, you might also inflict a bit of disruption on any moving units. Remember that supply trucks pay the motorised cost

2 - same table, max level is 9

3 - the interdiction lasts all the coming enemy turn affecting their movement and supply costs. Its not linked to the days you actually flew the mission. But, slightly different point, if you run an AD 7 days of the week you'll wreck your airforce

4 - non escort fighters can appear from a couple of sources. They may be flying a planning Air Superiority mission in the same area or from the auto-intercept routines. have a look at 18.1.10 and 18.1.11 for some idea of how these bits fit together.

edit - on the other side,earlier in the week your relatively short ranged fighters may have exceeded their max mileage so late week missions end up unescorted. Again its a reason to avoid 7 day week commitments if you possibly can.



Medicusa -> RE: Couple Quick Questions (3/27/2021 11:58:14 AM)

Thanks. do you also know why rail usage jumps? For example, I very often see that a railroad with no depot near it starts with 8k freight, goes down to 4k in a hex and then in the next goes up again with 8k. But there are no depots in this area. I could understand freight dropping due to attrition or attacks, but going up again with no depot to load it?



loki100 -> RE: Couple Quick Questions (3/27/2021 12:03:06 PM)

few possible reasons.

it may be city-city freight moves
it may be related to how rail capacity (ie railyards) is getting used up and called on

most likely, if you push usage in a turn much over 10k (incl the effect of interdiction), it won't all clear in the logistics phase, if usage is very heavy then it may take a few turns for this clear, so you might see this sort of pattern of peaks of usage.

the other is an oddity if the rail net gets broken up, it keeps a legacy of the previous turn usage in the broken sections but that is only going to occur in the early turns where a lot of ground in relatively well developed regions changes hands.

If you could post an image, that might help to give you a less vague answer



loki100 -> RE: Couple Quick Questions (3/27/2021 12:09:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: neuromancer
...
Good, good, sounds like this was fixed in the new game.


The first point about encirclement was more a pet peeve than anything, I just felt it could have been handled a lot better. Sounds like it still could use improvement, but I think I did learn to live with it. I suspect it was more a 'design for effect' thing than design for realism (i.e. making the player tie up forces to reduce those pocketed forces than being able to quickly make them surrender and move on, which - as I said - didn't actually happen that much).

The second point about East Front Trench Warfare, that was more of a deal breaker. But it really sounds that they fixed it, and with simply limiting the ability to entrench in the course of the game so that the Soviet conscripts with inadequate supplies aren't somehow assembling the Maginot line in the middle of the steppes! [X(]

Glad to hear it, thanks for the replies. [&o]



just to add, encircled units don't degrade to 1-1 ants in a turn as they did in #1. That can happen, but if they have depots in the pocket, or gain from air resupply (see 25.9.3) then they can be a tough nut to crack. In 1941 you do start to understand why the pocked battles in the second phase were such grim affairs

any unit can dig but the supply demand to push a fort much over 2 is substantial. So if you are in a supply poor region its going to be an age before either side has really strong forts. If you have a look at the Soviet AAR I did, you'll see just how hard it was to fortify around Stalingrad and I started the process in early 1942 and still lacked much fortifications come August when the Germans turned up.

so fortification is both the unit construction capacity and the ability to deliver the needed supplies.

You can expect level 1 forts pretty much by default, a division will generate that in a week, much over that is very situational



Medicusa -> RE: Couple Quick Questions (3/27/2021 1:07:36 PM)

I am not allowed to post images or links here...



loki100 -> RE: Couple Quick Questions (3/27/2021 1:11:13 PM)

ah, think you need 10 posts, just do a couple of +1 posts below this and you'll be good to go

Roger



Medicusa -> RE: Couple Quick Questions (3/27/2021 1:43:21 PM)

+1
You are not allowed to post links, emails or phone numbers for 7 days from the date of your tenth post.



loki100 -> RE: Couple Quick Questions (3/27/2021 1:46:39 PM)

ok, apols about that.

simplest is send me the relevant save and a note as to what to look at. This is probably easiest done using a wetransfer link to the save.

send it to rogercook@gmx.oom and I'll have a look at it

R



Jim D Burns -> RE: Couple Quick Questions (3/27/2021 2:03:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: neuromancer
2. 1942 Trench Warfare. In WitE even if you did well as the Acis in 1941, come 1942 it was nearly impossible to advance because the Soviets were so deeply entrenched 1942 became more like 1915 in the West.


I've never found trenches to be very effective in this game. I once complained bitterly in an AAR of WitE that a level 4 fully stacked Odessa was attacked from one hex (I think across a river) by 2 or 3 divisions and saw its entrenchments wiped out with zero engineering support by the attackers and the hex fell on the first attempt. It was as if the trenches didn't exist.

Not sure they are similarly ineffective in WitE 2, but I think your impressions were probably based on the increased CV displayed for defenders and not actual combat results. Trenches simply were not that difficult to deal with in this game, especially if you had some engineering support, though it isn't a requirement. Yes you had to do a deliberate attack instead of hasty attacks, but other than acting as speed bumps I never saw entrenchments as a real obstacle to making forward progress.

Jim



MechFO -> RE: Couple Quick Questions (3/27/2021 3:11:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: neuromancer

2. 1942 Trench Warfare. In WitE even if you did well as the Acis in 1941, come 1942 it was nearly impossible to advance because the Soviets were so deeply entrenched 1942 became more like 1915 in the West. Historically 1942 in the East was a fluid back and forth of the Soviets being pushed back and then in return regaining lost ground. This is admittedly something that several East Front games I've played have a large problem with modeling (which causes some to skip trying to model it and just focus on Barbarossa, or only do scenarios specifically designed to recreate the circumstances


Never really had that problem but I play against the AI.

Vast parts of the front were fairly static well from 1942 well into 1944, and in some areas like Rzhev during 1942 combat was characterized by massive attrition with very little ground exchanging hands, much like the Western Front in WWI.



Floxolydian -> RE: Couple Quick Questions (3/29/2021 8:10:35 AM)

According to the manual (the way I read it) only Soviet Fortified Units are limited. But German ones cost twice as much.

quote:

Soviet Fortified Units cost 2 and are limited to a total of 40. German units cost 4 administrative points.


I think a Panther Line-kind of long-stretching fortified line should be possible, and it comes at great administrative cost, takes away engineers, supplies and perhaps even combat units from the front. So these are quite off-setting factors.



loki100 -> RE: Couple Quick Questions (3/29/2021 8:18:49 AM)

there is a cap of 20 for the Germans, but we forgot to mention that in that section [;)] - which we should have



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