RE: smokindave34 (Axis) vs M60A3TTS (Soviet) 41 CG (Full Version)

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M60A3TTS -> RE: smokindave34 (Axis) vs M60A3TTS (Soviet) 41 CG (5/9/2021 11:04:45 PM)

Week 5 - 20 July 1941

Quite a bit of rain this week.

In the north, the panzers are back in the rear getting some rest. A few hexes are wrested away from the Red Army.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/zeLufpt.jpg[/image]


Near Smolensk, no real attempt is made to push east, but instead expands the Dnepr crossings south of the city.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/65SZdwf.jpg[/image]


In the south, Germans take their time advancing on Kiev.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/9JpVZ3K.jpg[/image]


Far south, it appears almost everything will be successfully extracted across the crossings at Nikolaev.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/iZNVmxX.jpg[/image]



M60A3TTS -> RE: smokindave34 (Axis) vs M60A3TTS (Soviet) 41 CG whenever he's ready (5/19/2021 10:18:51 AM)

Week 5 - 20 July 1941
End of turn

In the north, both sides send in air drops and consolidate their positions.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/7AfofxN.jpg[/image]


In the center, Long Range Air Command bombs the Dnepr crossings. The Germans expand their bridgehead, but do not break out.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/1MUZrN6.jpg[/image]


In the south, quite a bit of mud. More air drops here. Kiev is in no immediate danger as panzers drive south. As expected, Southern Front units are able to safely traverse the various ferry crossings.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/Kyue5hh.jpg[/image]

[image]https://i.imgur.com/jIgMENw.jpg[/image]


OOB

[image]https://i.imgur.com/gikeS7V.jpg[/image]



M60A3TTS -> RE: smokindave34 (Axis) vs M60A3TTS (Soviet) 41 CG whenever he's ready (5/19/2021 10:24:57 AM)

For those interested in air things, Southern Air Command organization.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/j4nXFR7.jpg[/image]



M60A3TTS -> RE: smokindave34 (Axis) vs M60A3TTS (Soviet) 41 CG whenever he's ready (5/21/2021 9:45:12 PM)

I do want to acknowledge that this AAR has not been given enough of my attention recently. That was in large part due to some recent RL stuff as well as a second HvH game that I have put down as of yesterday.

Dave has been very patient with the waiting and hopefully the pace will quicken from this point on. He is starting to see some success in the more current turns, and I'll endeavor to get those things posted with the appropriate degree of OPSEC.



Hardradi -> RE: smokindave34 (Axis) vs M60A3TTS (Soviet) 41 CG whenever he's ready (5/23/2021 8:29:35 AM)

Just caught up again. Looking forward to more.



M60A3TTS -> RE: smokindave34 (Axis) vs M60A3TTS (Soviet) 41 CG whenever he's ready (5/24/2021 4:20:34 PM)

Week 6 - 27 July 1941

In the north PG4 pushes on ahead. So far the line overall is holding in this area. To the west, the Germans are closing in on Tallinn.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/q6odHMm.jpg[/image]


In the center, Smolensk does not seem to be the focus of activities this week. Instead, the push is southeast as the Dnepr expansion continues.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/FzJcBff.jpg[/image]


In the south, Kiev is closer to becoming a front line city. The Germans close up on the Dnepr by Cherkassy and push the panzer spearheads onto D-Z.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/g4NqNXj.jpg[/image]


At the Gulf of Odessa, we retain Kherson and we are safely over the Dnepr.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/1dAnci4.jpg[/image]


Ground losses

[image]https://i.imgur.com/hXkFeOi.jpg[/image]



M60A3TTS -> RE: smokindave34 (Axis) vs M60A3TTS (Soviet) 41 CG whenever he's ready (5/24/2021 4:44:02 PM)

Here are a few counterattacks to keep the enemy off balance.

Heavy air losses here, but Vatutin scores a pair of victories. He has tank forces available.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/3wTjFho.jpg[/image]


Tolbukhin takes advantage of an earlier scout mission performed by one of Filatov's rifle divisions. Two panzer divisions are pushed back.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/ZE9yvCJ.jpg[/image]


A pair of victories in the south.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/g15PtW6.jpg[/image]


Meantime, the VVS remains busy.

Dropping more supplies.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/mcZi6Ra.jpg[/image]


Flying interdiction at a major river crossing.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/dMvkYD9.jpg[/image]


Here is a glimpse of my artillery SUs in the reserve. A lot suffer from poor experience level at the start of the game, so I send them back to the reserves to gain some back. This way hopefully they don't lose as much during retreats or routs once returned to action.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/ikzijXa.jpg[/image]



M60A3TTS -> RE: smokindave34 (Axis) vs M60A3TTS (Soviet) 41 CG whenever he's ready (5/24/2021 5:04:38 PM)

Here are the tank and mechanized divisions on the map and in the reserves.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/94SDesZ.jpg[/image]

I have a somewhat arbitrary magic number of 120 AFVs. If a unit has that many, it's considered ideal for front line service. Those units will always be with the leaders that carry a mech-6 rating. You can see there are some with low morale and experience. That is naturally expected. Where I can, they are pulled back, but not sent to the reserves. I want their prep points to be at 100 when they are ready to rejoin the fight.

The 41a tank divisions are rather ungainly as they need a lot of stuff to stay ready compared to a 41b division. It doesn't take that long for the a's to convert to b's so I don't try and go for over-powering A divisions. A B division in good shape will still give you a CV5 and coupled with a good mech division of CV7 or 8, they can start to fight back against the lone panzer division that is gradually wearing down deep inside the Motherland.



M60A3TTS -> RE: smokindave34 (Axis) vs M60A3TTS (Soviet) 41 CG whenever he's ready (5/24/2021 5:24:28 PM)

Other stuff that goes on (or not) behind the scenes.

In the reserves, AT gun formations will remain unfilled. There simply are not enough medium AT-guns to fill these units in meaningful numbers.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/f1IJAGE.jpg[/image]


AA units will see service gradually. I'll generally refit no more than 3 AA battalions at a time, so long as there are sufficient AA guns in the active pool.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/6i9LE74.jpg[/image]


Construction battalions. Born to die. As soon as their manpower, i.e. labor squads, can be converted into larger regiments and brigades, the mass disbands begin. It takes all the labor squads contained in a little over 10 battalions to equip a brigade. I want that higher construction value of a brigade for future airfield construction that can then take place at a more rapid pace, all other things (such as supply) being equal. But this is for later, as brigades can't be built until turns 12 (railroad) and 16 (general).

[image]https://i.imgur.com/XDMtlTi.jpg[/image]




M60A3TTS -> RE: smokindave34 (Axis) vs M60A3TTS (Soviet) 41 CG whenever he's ready (5/30/2021 3:42:19 AM)

Week 7 - 3 August 1941

In the north, there are a series of German attacks. Tallinn is still under Soviet control at this moment.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/JIYm03d.jpg[/image]


In the center, another series of German attacks, but Smolensk has yet to be encircled.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/elj2GhP.jpg[/image]


Additional German advances threaten Gomel.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/JXsPNs5.jpg[/image]


Farther south, Kiev is still Soviet. But farther east, German troops have broken over the Dnepr.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/X6Q8a4H.jpg[/image]



German motorized troops have also crossed the Dnepr northeast of Kherson.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/3hteziw.jpg[/image]


Air interdiction goes in to contest several crossing points.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/NWeZqtI.jpg[/image]


Since I am not bringing in more than the default minimum number of aircraft per strike (24), the amount of interdiction is less effective. These numbers will see an increase at a later date.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/XMto9L2.jpg[/image]






gingerbread -> RE: smokindave34 (Axis) vs M60A3TTS (Soviet) 41 CG whenever he's ready (5/30/2021 9:10:41 AM)

I really like this approach to playing the Soviet side. The map shows the status of the short game, but the long game is seen and played in the CR and rear areas.

Good call to establish a 120 tanks rule as this eliminates the mind sapping individual unit decisions every turn. Ditto about the artillery and the exp aspect. If they can't hit they only increase the logistic load for no gain.

I've come around to your side regarding the air supply drops - the CV values speak for themselves.

One thing I'm missing is the long game vehicle budget and why you don't disband TD that will never be of further use on the map.



Hardradi -> RE: smokindave34 (Axis) vs M60A3TTS (Soviet) 41 CG whenever he's ready (5/30/2021 9:24:03 AM)

Ouch, throwing back two Panzer Divisions on Turn 5 is pretty impressive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Since I am not bringing in more than the default minimum number of aircraft per strike (24), the amount of interdiction is less effective. These numbers will see an increase at a later date.

I couldn't find this in the manual. If there are less aircraft than this allocated to the air directive then they will not fly the sortie/strike? Is it different for the Germans?



loki100 -> RE: smokindave34 (Axis) vs M60A3TTS (Soviet) 41 CG whenever he's ready (5/30/2021 9:42:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

...

One thing I'm missing is the long game vehicle budget and why you don't disband TD that will never be of further use on the map.


I think its harder/less use to manage than in #1

In part as you have no truck shortage in 1941, but you hit a brick wall in late 42-mid 43 and (my view) any early game optimisation has only a marginal impact here. The problem is you need the new tools (even if you hold back on Mech Corps you need Artillery divisions and Tank Corps), so demand is up, and its not till the 1944 LL multiplier that you can clear the backlog.

Other problems at that stage is the shortage of heavy artillery biases you towards rocket formations (but they too want trucks).

Also operationally, its very easy to outrun your depots, so again that becomes a truck problem.



M60A3TTS -> RE: smokindave34 (Axis) vs M60A3TTS (Soviet) 41 CG whenever he's ready (5/30/2021 10:57:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hardradi

Ouch, throwing back two Panzer Divisions on Turn 5 is pretty impressive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Since I am not bringing in more than the default minimum number of aircraft per strike (24), the amount of interdiction is less effective. These numbers will see an increase at a later date.

I couldn't find this in the manual. If there are less aircraft than this allocated to the air directive then they will not fly the sortie/strike? Is it different for the Germans?


Yes, if there are less aircraft than the required number then the mission will not fly. To reduced the chance of that, I can set the entire Long Range Air Command to fly the mission, and it has 400+ aircraft. If I chose a single AOG of say 100 planes, it might fail to meet my custom minimum requirements after more than a mission or two due to losses. Then the challenge is not to overwork the planes. Generally flying only one day, two at most for a mission will let you fly multiple missions, covering the important hexes with a larger bomber force.

I'm always selective in what hexes to interdict. Missions on clear, non-river hexes really don't impact movement. Attacking other hexes can cause enemy units to expend +1 or +2 MPs for entry. If I can flip some hexes with ground units and interdict others, add in the effects of combat delay during the enemy turn and you can slow things down in the right places.

It is no different for the Germans.





squatter -> RE: smokindave34 (Axis) vs M60A3TTS (Soviet) 41 CG whenever he's ready (5/30/2021 11:15:39 AM)

Great AAR, thanks M60

I'm curious about your extensive use of the VVS long range bomber force:

Are all your bomber missions flown by day?
Do you try to only fly where you think there is no LW air cover, or do you sometimes fly in the teeth of enemy interceptors?
Do you fly unescorted, or do you attach fighters to the long range command to provide escorts?




M60A3TTS -> RE: smokindave34 (Axis) vs M60A3TTS (Soviet) 41 CG whenever he's ready (5/30/2021 11:21:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread
I really like this approach to playing the Soviet side. The map shows the status of the short game, but the long game is seen and played in the CR and rear areas.


I like the way you put that.


quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread
One thing I'm missing is the long game vehicle budget and why you don't disband TD that will never be of further use on the map.



The TD units do consume some trucks but there are other ways to manage the vehicle situation.

This turn, I get rid of all these tank battalions. Their tank numbers are too small IMO, and therefore the units too brittle. They can't promote to guards either I believe. So no trucks will be expended to support them.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/czECVde.jpg[/image]





loki100 -> RE: smokindave34 (Axis) vs M60A3TTS (Soviet) 41 CG whenever he's ready (5/30/2021 11:22:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
... Attacking other hexes can cause enemy units to expend +1 or +2 MPs for entry. ....



actually its an exit cost, so no cost to enter an interdicted hex but the cost (& any attrition etc) is triggered by moving out (either physically or via a reserve reaction)



M60A3TTS -> RE: smokindave34 (Axis) vs M60A3TTS (Soviet) 41 CG whenever he's ready (5/30/2021 11:57:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter
Are all your bomber missions flown by day?


Yes, the missions are more effective when flown during the day.

quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter
Do you try to only fly where you think there is no LW air cover, or do you sometimes fly in the teeth of enemy interceptors?

Do you fly unescorted, or do you attach fighters to the long range command to provide escorts?


Well, the second part sort of answers the first. I don't want to necessarily fly into the teeth of anything. I do have fighters supporting these interdiction missions. Generally if the interdiction remains close to the front lines, it doesn't attract as many enemy fighters flying CAP, That's why I generally avoid missions deep behind the lines if I know he has fighters in the vicinity.



M60A3TTS -> RE: smokindave34 (Axis) vs M60A3TTS (Soviet) 41 CG whenever he's ready (5/30/2021 12:07:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
... Attacking other hexes can cause enemy units to expend +1 or +2 MPs for entry. ....



actually its an exit cost, so no cost to enter an interdicted hex but the cost (& any attrition etc) is triggered by moving out (either physically or via a reserve reaction)



No, it's an entry cost. You may be confusing this with combat delay which is an exit cost.

Example of entering an interdicted and non-interdicted hex:

[image]https://i.imgur.com/Lags4z5.jpg[/image]



carlkay58 -> RE: smokindave34 (Axis) vs M60A3TTS (Soviet) 41 CG whenever he's ready (5/30/2021 1:40:50 PM)

According to the manual (22.2.3):

quote:

Leaving hexes with higher levels of interdiction will impose increased movement costs and possibly extra losses in the form of disruptions, damaged and destroyed elements.



Sammy5IsAlive -> RE: smokindave34 (Axis) vs M60A3TTS (Soviet) 41 CG whenever he's ready (5/30/2021 2:56:18 PM)

I think it is a 'double whammy'. The rule whereby interdiction prevents admin movement relates to the hex being entered. So in the screenshots above the admin movement rule reduces the cost of crossing the river by 1MP (due to poor roads). But when crossing into an interdicted hex admin movement is prevented. So that is the extra cost on entering the hex and then you will incur further costs as quoted by Carl on leaving the hex.



M60A3TTS -> RE: smokindave34 (Axis) vs M60A3TTS (Soviet) 41 CG whenever he's ready (5/30/2021 3:29:19 PM)

Here you see the unit can leave the hex at no extra cost.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/Y8pl4qh.jpg[/image]



loki100 -> RE: smokindave34 (Axis) vs M60A3TTS (Soviet) 41 CG whenever he's ready (5/30/2021 3:53:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Here you see the unit can leave the hex at no extra cost.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/Y8pl4qh.jpg[/image]


yes but admin move has no impact there, its a clear terrain clear weather hex so the max cost is 1, admin move can't reduce the cost below 1 (so has no effect)



M60A3TTS -> RE: smokindave34 (Axis) vs M60A3TTS (Soviet) 41 CG whenever he's ready (5/30/2021 4:33:10 PM)

My interpretation: We're looking at the same thing and seeing two different things.

I see chart 38.7.2 comment (2) in the manual that says interdiction level 8+ has a capped MP cost. That cost is not being incurred leaving that hex with interdiction 12.

I think you are seeing the unit entering a hex (taking my earlier view now?) where interdiction is 2 and there is no penalty for motorized as the manual states.

For the benefit of the larger audience, this is already up for discussion in another forum.



Beethoven1 -> RE: smokindave34 (Axis) vs M60A3TTS (Soviet) 41 CG whenever he's ready (5/31/2021 1:43:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Construction battalions. Born to die. As soon as their manpower, i.e. labor squads, can be converted into larger regiments and brigades, the mass disbands begin. It takes all the labor squads contained in a little over 10 battalions to equip a brigade. I want that higher construction value of a brigade for future airfield construction that can then take place at a more rapid pace, all other things (such as supply) being equal. But this is for later, as brigades can't be built until turns 12 (railroad) and 16 (general).


Don't you have to pay AP to recruit more construction regiments? If so, isn't it sort of a waste of AP to disband brigades and then spend AP to recruit the same men back into regiments?

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

This turn, I get rid of all these tank battalions. Their tank numbers are too small IMO, and therefore the units too brittle. They can't promote to guards either I believe. So no trucks will be expended to support them.


Likewise with this, I would agree I also don't particularly like those little tank units, but you are going to have to pay AP to recruit other tank units later to use the equipment that would otherwise get used in those, right? Is that really worth it?



M60A3TTS -> RE: smokindave34 (Axis) vs M60A3TTS (Soviet) 41 CG whenever he's ready (5/31/2021 2:15:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Beethoven1

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Construction battalions. Born to die. As soon as their manpower, i.e. labor squads, can be converted into larger regiments and brigades, the mass disbands begin. It takes all the labor squads contained in a little over 10 battalions to equip a brigade. I want that higher construction value of a brigade for future airfield construction that can then take place at a more rapid pace, all other things (such as supply) being equal. But this is for later, as brigades can't be built until turns 12 (railroad) and 16 (general).


Don't you have to pay AP to recruit more construction regiments? If so, isn't it sort of a waste of AP to disband brigades and then spend AP to recruit the same men back into regiments?


No, you'll get all these for free and you can fill them with the labor squads you disband. Otherwise, you just have to find more manpower all over again.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/ZXspDVO.jpg[/image]


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

This turn, I get rid of all these tank battalions. Their tank numbers are too small IMO, and therefore the units too brittle. They can't promote to guards either I believe. So no trucks will be expended to support them.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Beethoven1
Likewise with this, I would agree I also don't particularly like those little tank units, but you are going to have to pay AP to recruit other tank units later to use the equipment that would otherwise get used in those, right? Is that really worth it?


Here yes and no. First, many depleted divisions later convert to brigades. Second, tank regiments cost zero AP. Third, you will have some admin point dumps available to help build brigades that only cost 1AP each anyways. So APs really are no issue here.



Beethoven1 -> RE: smokindave34 (Axis) vs M60A3TTS (Soviet) 41 CG whenever he's ready (5/31/2021 2:57:49 AM)

Thanks. Tank regiments do seem to cost AP in 1941 turn 17 (where I am currently in my game), but when I check in the Stalingrad to Berlin scenario I see they don't cost AP there. I knew the AP costs change over time, but didn't know exactly how/when/for what. Now I am disbanding all my tank battalions also, which frees up a pretty decent # of tanks for my tank division, as well as some manpower!



M60A3TTS -> RE: smokindave34 (Axis) vs M60A3TTS (Soviet) 41 CG whenever he's ready (5/31/2021 3:26:32 AM)

Yes, they are free and the cap goes up by a large number on Turn 29, the start of January 1942.



Beethoven1 -> RE: smokindave34 (Axis) vs M60A3TTS (Soviet) 41 CG whenever he's ready (5/31/2021 4:25:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Yes, they are free and the cap goes up by a large number on Turn 29, the start of January 1942.


Do you know if the same is true for all the extra little AA/AT units that Soviets don't have actual equipment for in fall '41? i.e. would I be safe to disband at least some of these?

[image]https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/846782442705518592/848778973730963476/unknown.png[/image]



M60A3TTS -> RE: smokindave34 (Axis) vs M60A3TTS (Soviet) 41 CG whenever he's ready (5/31/2021 4:48:01 AM)

Yes. Again, in 1942 these support units cost no APs to create. The problem with the AT Regiments in 1941 is they require the same 85mm KS-12 AA gun that the AA battalions use and there are only 50 of these built per week. There just aren't enough to go around. In 1942, the AT units switch to the F-22 ATG and so then you can build back up to whatever suits you. Generally I build up the AA battalions a couple at a time to around 15 medium AA guns to help whittle down the Luftwaffe where possible.



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