SU Commitment (Full Version)

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postfux -> SU Commitment (4/15/2021 10:52:38 AM)

Can anyone tell me why the marked fort blocks SU commitment?

[image]local://upfiles/52375/97475FBC90D5474399FB2ED6653E1AA2.jpg[/image]



postfux -> RE: SU Commitment (4/16/2021 5:48:34 AM)

As long as I dont remove the fort no SU will be commited by VIII Corps (or any other). As soon as its gone there is no problem any more.

It cant be a ZOC thing, because the fort SW of the marked one an the ID on the other side of the gap also exert ZOC. It doesnt help to occopy the hexes NW and NE of the marked fort.



carlkay58 -> RE: SU Commitment (4/16/2021 11:32:59 AM)

But the other fort's ZOC is into a friendly unit occupied hex so it probably is the ZOC that is doing it. What were you occupying the northern hexes with? If just regiments there might be another one of the regiment vs division differences.



postfux -> RE: SU Commitment (4/22/2021 9:57:30 PM)

Occupying the hexes with divisions doesnt help. If the attacking division doesnt cross the river but stays one hex W from where it is now there is no problem. Looks like EZOC at the hex SW of where it is now blocks SU commitment.

[image]local://upfiles/52375/5FC2816B41854C2488B93892EEEA0312.jpg[/image]



postfux -> RE: SU Commitment (4/22/2021 10:14:39 PM)

There still is no path without EZOC, but now SUs get commited.

[image]local://upfiles/52375/655A80B9CD1E4FCC8B71C85A7D0EE563.jpg[/image]



postfux -> RE: SU Commitment (4/22/2021 10:22:47 PM)

Here, too.

[image]local://upfiles/52375/1A84DADD84FE426AB0DCC8C28363B802.jpg[/image]



Nix77 -> RE: SU Commitment (4/23/2021 4:03:59 AM)

Smells like MP limit for the commitment to me, but dont remember seeing that in the manual?

How many MP from the HQ with/without the fort? If you remove only the fort SW from the one you were suspecting at first, I'm guessing that allows commitment too? If it doesnt, then it's not MP related.

quote:

From the manual: ... as long as the HQ unit is within five hexes “as the crow flies”.


Seems like a bug, or a feature documented wrong? I wouldn't mind support units to be limited to 5 hexes/25-30MP. Creates a lot of extra hassle and calculations for the player, but what doesnt in this game? :D



postfux -> RE: SU Commitment (4/23/2021 6:04:13 AM)

Also doesnt work this way. There is now some dense forrest instead of clean terrain in the commitment path.

[image]local://upfiles/52375/71679F82544F4268B3ECE934021FA40A.jpg[/image]

Edit: Removing the units in the SE corner (the two visible and one not on the screenshot) doesnt help. Now obiously the fort to the N of the gap is blocking.



postfux -> RE: SU Commitment (4/23/2021 6:16:23 AM)

In the orginal setting (the breach opening up the clear terrain) it is 6 MP from HQ to the hex E of the river and 4 MP to the hex W of the river. Dont think its a MP problem.

I think I have read somewhere in the manual, that enemy occupied hexes block SU commitment, but that is clearly not the case here.



postfux -> RE: SU Commitment (4/23/2021 7:06:23 AM)

Walter, where is the Arty?

[image]local://upfiles/52375/188A90BA77C84E12A636A6A892745CC3.jpg[/image]



loki100 -> RE: SU Commitment (4/23/2021 7:11:43 AM)

Have you read section 23.6.1?

Note this:

quote:

Support unit commitment from headquarters units is not automatic. For each support unit attempting to be committed, the leader of that headquarters must pass an initiative check. The support unit must then pass several checks


so there is a random element, one instance tells you nothing about what usually happens

also the rules for distance, trucks, CPP, fortifications and HQ movement

there is this in 23.6:

quote:

The HQ unit must be within five hexes of attached combat units and be able to trace any path of friendly hexes, which can be in EZOC, to those combat units in order to commit support units during combat


as far as I can see from your posts, you are reporting the type of variation that doesn't surprise me.




postfux -> RE: SU Commitment (4/23/2021 7:49:57 AM)

That is turn 1, the first attack from VIII corps overloaded with SUs and HQ fails to commit every single time.

If thats bad luck with rolls I am happy I didnt get struck by lightning in my living room [:)].



loki100 -> RE: SU Commitment (4/23/2021 7:53:59 AM)

well Walter is not exactly a top rate commander, so yes, he could well be failing leadership rolls and the 9 Army commander isn't too good either, so its feasible.

See the tables in 15.5.2



postfux -> RE: SU Commitment (4/23/2021 8:15:26 AM)

I am either seriously overlooking something or this isnt a numbers thing.

I did try out lot of things and am getting consistent results. In some constellations VIII corps never commits, in some always. Never ever this pattern didnt show.

Just now I reloaded five times in my standard fail scenario. I get huge differences in battle outcomes. But not one single time a single SU gets commited. Not one.

If this behavior cant be explained by the rules something seems to go wrong.



loki100 -> RE: SU Commitment (4/23/2021 8:32:41 AM)

ok, I went back to T1 of my current HtH game and had a look at 9 Army. Now I didn't use VIII corps in combat - its far too valuable for that and I wanted to preserve CPP.

Most of the fighting there was by 16A but I found one by V corps where I did a deliberate attack (unusual), it pulled in a bit of SU. Remember that hasty attacks often don't acquire SU.

[image]local://upfiles/43256/137A5E7F747F429F989D7558027D0959.jpg[/image]

that is before I moved any Pzr/Mot formations



postfux -> RE: SU Commitment (4/23/2021 8:56:19 AM)

That is my turn against the AI so far. I am sure I make some mistakes, but the TD in question was attacked by V corps. Bit of an overkill perhaps, but I wanted to make sure not to get a combat delay. The tanks are already ahead swapping rout points.

I am trying out different things to learn the rules and in doing so this annoying SU blocking (I still think so) fort came up.

I used VIII corps for testing because it is within range and full of SUs so at least some should commit if the rules allow. It is not a VIII corps problem. You can use any other within range with the same results.

[image]local://upfiles/52375/BDA2B0DC5DD1484C892BAD965391A347.jpg[/image]



postfux -> RE: SU Commitment (4/23/2021 9:01:39 AM)

Richard fails helping out Walter.

[image]local://upfiles/52375/C8E1F0AF889A4A1198DFD8A60F8F61DC.jpg[/image]



postfux -> RE: SU Commitment (4/23/2021 9:06:22 AM)

With the fort gone both are successfull. This is no numbers thing.

[image]local://upfiles/52375/302F61B2AE834BCB849E0E040ACC38C7.jpg[/image]



loki100 -> RE: SU Commitment (4/23/2021 9:06:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: postfux

...

I am trying out different things to learn the rules and in doing so this annoying SU blocking (I still think so) fort came up.

...


whatever the issue its not the fort, see the rules quote above. If you control a hex then SU commitment can happen even if it is still in a ZoC.

again, there is a random element here. In the last 2 egs you show SU commitment in one case and not in another.



postfux -> RE: SU Commitment (4/23/2021 9:25:37 AM)

1

[image]local://upfiles/52375/5953CEDB9F96469C8E70230A423422E0.jpg[/image]



postfux -> RE: SU Commitment (4/23/2021 9:26:02 AM)

2

[image]local://upfiles/52375/5ED9EE0D59CD4C44B98C8E01381FEC30.jpg[/image]



postfux -> RE: SU Commitment (4/23/2021 9:26:43 AM)

3

[image]local://upfiles/52375/DCD6F078E62640FBB88F0CF17976D8F6.jpg[/image]



postfux -> RE: SU Commitment (4/23/2021 9:27:26 AM)

4

[image]local://upfiles/52375/8ABB956C0FCA4589A3650B76D8A89B0B.jpg[/image]



postfux -> RE: SU Commitment (4/23/2021 9:27:52 AM)

5

[image]local://upfiles/52375/A3965DDCE02149F7896AE11F606F1A16.jpg[/image]



postfux -> RE: SU Commitment (4/23/2021 9:29:02 AM)

Could we try to build a trust based relationship? [:)]



MechFO -> RE: SU Commitment (4/23/2021 10:11:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: postfux

...

I am trying out different things to learn the rules and in doing so this annoying SU blocking (I still think so) fort came up.

...


whatever the issue its not the fort, see the rules quote above. If you control a hex then SU commitment can happen even if it is still in a ZoC.

again, there is a random element here. In the last 2 egs you show SU commitment in one case and not in another.


My front near Leningrad has been static for 70 turns and I'm also seeing certain hexes which just don't seem to get SU support even though in support range of both Corps and Army HQ's, and with good leaders.

In my case it's noticable because in every Soviet turn there will be 1-2 attacks on a specific hex and it's only at 5 hex range from the Corps HQ where problems occur. If the Corps HQ is moved to 4 hexes or less, some SU are always commited.



MechFO -> RE: SU Commitment (4/23/2021 2:08:53 PM)

Looked through my saves and I think it's safe to say there is some problem with SU commitment, at least in certain cases, so I'm posting it in the tech forum.



dudefan -> RE: SU Commitment (4/23/2021 2:09:25 PM)

I also see a lot of inconsistencies concerning SU commitments. Actually I don't like the fact that there are random rolls if SU are committed.



Joel Billings -> RE: SU Commitment (4/23/2021 2:23:16 PM)

Are all the failing commitments having to trace a zoc to zoc move? Please attach the save where you never get a commitment so we can try it out. Thanks.



Nix77 -> RE: SU Commitment (4/23/2021 5:43:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Are all the failing commitments having to trace a zoc to zoc move? Please attach the save where you never get a commitment so we can try it out. Thanks.


The exact situation is easy to create from the campaign start. I took a bit further and tested it out. I think it's exactly as I thought: Support Units won't get committed if the HQ is over 30MP (or something between 27-43MP, I suspect it's 30MP) from the unit! It seems T1 special ZOC rules don't apply to this 30MP distance. I don't think it's just ZOC-ZOC movement, it's just the MPs that get incremented due to ZOC-ZOC. Some player experienced problems with SU commitment near Luga region: heavy woods, rivers and swamp cause easily 30+MP before you reach 5 hexes.

See the picture: in red spots, SUs don't get committed. The green spot is the first place where they do, and that's 26MP from the unit, but only 2 hexes away from it!

EDIT: Counted wrong at first, it's not 29MP but 26MP for those 2 hexes.

[image]local://upfiles/55175/F1D2E12286564AA6BF21C969DB035A6F.jpg[/image]



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