Weird little bug, more than 3 subs out of port (Full Version)

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stjeand -> Weird little bug, more than 3 subs out of port (5/2/2021 5:13:28 PM)

So far has happened twice...I have more than 3 subs in port. I deselect all...pick 3 and move them...

BUT all move...so I have a stack of 5 at sea.

SADLY I was not on a convoy lane to see what they could do. In any case they had to split up to move again.

The first time this happened I thought...whoops...that was weird and undid my move.

Then could not get 5 to go out that turn.

I will upload the photo when I can...receiving an ASP error each time I try.

Anyone one else getting this error:

ASP 500.100 Error
An error occurred processing the page you requested.
Please see the details below for more information.

COM Error Number -2146825284 (0x800A0BBC)
File Name /forums/js/PGDUpload.asp
Line Number 566
Brief Description Write to file failed.
Script Name /forums/uploadpro.asp?memori=76402&deletefile=&mode=edit&messageid=5012695



sillyflower -> RE: Weird little bug, more than 3 subs out of port (5/3/2021 8:24:20 AM)

You have a game where you have 5 subs left??? [;)]



stjeand -> RE: Weird little bug, more than 3 subs out of port (5/3/2021 11:49:25 AM)

quote:

You have a game where you have 5 subs left???



NO one asked you...


Yes I have one game where I have more than 3 subs left. I THINK I finally figured out the BOA...

But thinking is dangerous.




Flaviusx -> RE: Weird little bug, more than 3 subs out of port (5/3/2021 1:09:48 PM)

He's got no less than 8 in our match and is pressing the Commonwealth very hard in late 1940. I'm down to less than 150 merchants. His secret sauce: don't invade the Dutch or Norway and starve the British of merchants early on. It does hurt. I don't think it is going to work in the long run, though, and could blow up on him

What it does do is keep the British on a short leash until the Americans come in. Very unlikely I'll get anything going on in North Africa until the BoA is settled.

Rest assured that I'm taking countermeasures for this brand of cheese. You just haven't seen them yet.

I also think this is going to hurt you in Russia. Your sub losses have not been trivial and building this big ass sub fleet is by my estimation an opportunity cost of 2 panzer corps. And you have all your Italian mech in Africa.

If you cannot leverage this BoA strat into a strong Barbarossa it seems very pointless to me.




AlvaroSousa -> RE: Weird little bug, more than 3 subs out of port (5/3/2021 3:03:22 PM)

I can't replicate this 5 sub error.

Defending vs subs simple. Every other turn build an escort, every 3-4 turns build 10mms. Yes you will be out of it till the USA is in the war but have enough to defend positions.



Harrybanana -> RE: Weird little bug, more than 3 subs out of port (5/3/2021 3:20:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

He's got no less than 8 in our match and is pressing the Commonwealth very hard in late 1940. I'm down to less than 150 merchants. His secret sauce: don't invade the Dutch or Norway and starve the British of merchants early on. It does hurt. I don't think it is going to work in the long run, though, and could blow up on him

What it does do is keep the British on a short leash until the Americans come in. Very unlikely I'll get anything going on in North Africa until the BoA is settled.

Rest assured that I'm taking countermeasures for this brand of cheese. You just haven't seen them yet.

I also think this is going to hurt you in Russia. Your sub losses have not been trivial and building this big ass sub fleet is by my estimation an opportunity cost of 2 panzer corps. And you have all your Italian mech in Africa.

If you cannot leverage this BoA strat into a strong Barbarossa it seems very pointless to me.



Do you truly think this is "Cheese" Flavius? I guess it depends on your definition of "Cheese". I think it is a legitimate strategy for the Axis to not invade either Norway or the Netherlands. Certainly it was not foreordained before the War that they would invade either. As for the Germans building 5 to 6 subs (to go with the 3 they start with) between September 39 and late 1940, I don't think that is Cheese either. I think for many players this has always been a standard strategy even if they invaded Norway and the Netherlands. For me the problem is that the British do not receive an historical number of shipyards to counter this strategy.

I don't agree with you that this strategy costs the Germans 2 panzers. At a minimum the Germans should build 3 U-Boats, so building the extra 3 only costs them 1 panzer. I suppose they will also be spending more on repairing U-Boats, but I don't know as it will amount to the cost of a full panzer.

I do agree with you that the Axis need to take advantage of this strategy by sending a larger then usual force (including the Italian armour and mechanized) into Russia. Since the UK is weakened by this strategy the Axis should be able to use fewer units to defend Western Europe and North Africa.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Weird little bug, more than 3 subs out of port (5/3/2021 3:25:16 PM)

Maybe the cheese is using a bug to send out 5 subs at a time and not the invasion of either country.



Harrybanana -> RE: Weird little bug, more than 3 subs out of port (5/3/2021 3:44:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

I can't replicate this 5 sub error.

Defending vs subs simple. Every other turn build an escort, every 3-4 turns build 10mms. Yes you will be out of it till the USA is in the war but have enough to defend positions.


I don't know as building an escort every 2nd turn is enough Alvaro. With 9 U-Boats operating the Germans will on average be destroying an escort every 2nd turn; so the net effect is that you won't gain any escorts. And certainly building only 10 MS every 3 or 4 turns is a losing proposition as with 9 U-Boats the Axis will be destroying at least an average of 6 MS per turn (20 every 3 turns) and probably more. The problem for the British is that they have a very limited number of shipyards available until the CV and BB finish building. By the time these two capital ships are built freeing up shipyard space the British are already behind in the BOA. With the 65 shipyards they have they can build 60 MS every 180 days which is less than 5 per turn. So even with all their shipyards pumping out MS they will be losing MS faster than they can be replaced. This was OK when they received an extra 78 MS from Norway and the Netherlands, but not if these nations are not attacked by the Axis.



Flaviusx -> RE: Weird little bug, more than 3 subs out of port (5/3/2021 4:13:28 PM)

It is mildly cheesy, but I don't really object to it and think it can be managed. You do have to change things up to deal with it. I don't consider it game breaking. There is cheese and there is cheese. This *is* cheese to the extent that it involved deep game knowledge and min maxing about transport availability, deliberately avoiding invading certain countries solely to avoid gifting the transports, etc. It's very obviously min maxing things in a way that you would never do without a high level of understanding of game mechanics. Against a novice player I'd would say it's not very sporting. Against me? I'm cool with it, and it gives me a chance to test out some of my own ideas.

5 new uboats (besides the 3 you start with and think there are more coming) + 30 odd losses on subs + upgrades = 2 panzer corps in my estimation. There is an opportunity cost here.



stjeand -> RE: Weird little bug, more than 3 subs out of port (5/3/2021 4:31:51 PM)

Flaviusx

I meant no disrespect and I hope you do not consider this cheese as we had discussed and are just playing around.
I believe this is a normal German strategy...I guess if I built 12 to 15 Uboats...that is a bit much. Not sure they turning point.
I have seen nearly every game played against me as the Allies and most of the recent AARs using this strategy and thought to try it.
In the past my Uboats did nothing and I could not figure it out...but finally I figured out what I was doing wrong.

I am fighting another and I have sunk more than twice what I have against you and it is nearly the Russian first winter.
And somehow he still have over 170 MS...and I keep sinking and sinking.

For me the issue is...no one invades Norway, the Netherland and even Greece anymore due to the massive shipping bonus they provide the Allies instantly and the negligible gain the Axis receive which takes years.
Take the Netherlands...30 MS and 3 Escorts...That is 420 production instantly for the Allies.
The Axis get 3.3 per turn for 4.5 to 5 years? So 130 turns at say 1.75% per turn for a total of 750...but it takes 5 years, not instantly.
Perhaps the MS and Escorts could come back on a schedule? Say every X turns you get 10 MS and an escort...Many are over in the Pacific theater and until 1941 are in use there...I don't know.
The same for Norway...48MS which is just 480...the Germans do get more points but need 3 large corps to garrison. So they get more PP back but need 600 PP in units to keep it. No gain there.
That might make the


In games I Have played as the Axis, the Allies unchecked totally wipe the Germans in Africa because the Germans did not press them hard enough in the BOA and they can spend all their money on ground forces...a later French all in strat.

Sadly I waited to long to start the Battle of Britain, maybe it is never to late.

Barbarosa set up is going fine...but you have quite a different approach to your defense. I will definitely need to think about it.


In the game I am the Allies...I am in rough shape. I am down to 120 MS...but i Have nearly 40 escorts...they seem to stay afloat. But they also can't seem to hit anything. Moscow is about to fall...the German surface fleet is raiding with 9 subs...it is rough. I did paradrop and amphibiously invade Romania and they surrendered in 1940. That was helpful but it only lasted 2 turns...but the oil stopped flowing.



stjeand -> RE: Weird little bug, more than 3 subs out of port (5/3/2021 4:38:32 PM)

OKAY good...


I hope that the Netherland and Norway can be fixed...if they are then invasions will return.



Flaviusx -> RE: Weird little bug, more than 3 subs out of port (5/3/2021 4:43:11 PM)

Honestly, I was just tweaking you a bit with the cheese. Like I said, there are different levels of cheese. I don't consider this outside the boundaries for our match.

I'm doing something new for Barbarossa this time around. Not sure if it will work. Part of the reason I am doing it this way is because I don't expect you to have as many mech units available as I have seen in the past. If I thought you were throwing in 16 mobile corps (and I have seen that in the past) I'd do it differently.



stjeand -> RE: Weird little bug, more than 3 subs out of port (5/3/2021 4:48:30 PM)

Still can not post an image of the 5 subs...not sure why.
Tried Edge and Chrome and both give an ASP error.

I wish they had moved onto a convoy lane...would love to have seen if it was 5 subs stacked.

BUT once they moved I could not move them again as 5...they had to split. Just weird.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Weird little bug, more than 3 subs out of port (5/3/2021 7:04:40 PM)

You have to replicate how it happened and what was in the port with it to allow the move or was it at sea.



Nirosi -> RE: Weird little bug, more than 3 subs out of port (5/3/2021 7:11:48 PM)

Jut thinking out loud : should not a still neutral Netherlands activate as an Ally in December 1941 or January 1942 because of the Pacific? Or at least get the MM at that date. Since they would be allied at least against Japan, it would make sense that their merchant marine would be available...

For Norway, I would be very afraid as a German player not to take it as the Allies can then do it in 1942 and this is a lot of PP lost during winter turns (25 PP per turn multiplied by Germany multiple IIRC) and it also comes with a dagger pointing to Germany's North. So depending on Allied strategy, there might be a serious price to pay for Germany in not taking Norway. With Greece I hesitate more, I admit, but it does come with Bulgaria which is a nice touch.



Harrybanana -> RE: Weird little bug, more than 3 subs out of port (5/3/2021 10:46:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nirosi

Jut thinking out loud : should not a still neutral Netherlands activate as an Ally in December 1941 or January 1942 because of the Pacific? Or at least get the MM at that date. Since they would be allied at least against Japan, it would make sense that their merchant marine would be available...


I doubt the Netherlands would have risked war with Germany by allowing their MS to be used to transport oil and resources to the UK. But they might have allowed them to be used in other locations thus freeing up the UK MS for this purpose. So perhaps the same effect. But then what happens if the UK DOWs the Netherlands after Jan 42? Does it lose 30 MS and Germany gain 30 MS?

quote:

For Norway, I would be very afraid as a German player not to take it as the Allies can then do it in 1942 and this is a lot of PP lost during winter turns (25 PP per turn multiplied by Germany multiple IIRC) and it also comes with a dagger pointing to Germany's North. So depending on Allied strategy, there might be a serious price to pay for Germany in not taking Norway. With Greece I hesitate more, I admit, but it does come with Bulgaria which is a nice touch.


People should read my AARs with Hadros (please, I think only one person is reading them). As the Axis neither of us attacked either Norway or the Netherlands. As the Allies I conquered Norway in 1941 for the very reason you mentioned.

As the Germans I only built 3 extra U-Boats. Hadros responded as the UK by building as many MS and escorts as I think he possibly could. In other words, I think he started early and always maxed out his shipyards. He may have even built some extra UK Shipyards. As a result I don't think I ever got him to the UK critical level (ie below 150 MS). As the Germans Hadros has built at least 7 extra U-Boats and perhaps more. My UK response was poor. I did not start building MS or escorts until the late spring or early summer of 1940 and I used some of my shipyards to build landing ships (how else could I invade Norway and Vichy North Africa). The result is that it is now early 1942 and the UK has less than 100 MS. So I am losing the BOA in both games. Luckily I am doing OK in the land war in both games. But as Axis Hadros is doing far better in Russia than you would think possible for someone who:

1. Lost 2 armour, a mechanized and an infantry in France,
2. Has built 7+ U-Boats and
3. Defended North Africa fairly heavily.



Nirosi -> RE: Weird little bug, more than 3 subs out of port (5/4/2021 12:20:07 AM)

quote:

But they might have allowed them to be used in other locations thus freeing up the UK MS for this purpose


As you say, for practical purpose it would still help the Allies MM wise.



Nirosi -> RE: Weird little bug, more than 3 subs out of port (5/4/2021 12:21:32 AM)

quote:

But then what happens if the UK DOWs the Netherlands after Jan 42? Does it lose 30 MS and Germany gain 30 MS?


Good question! If we do allows MMs to work for the Allies while Netherlands still neutral, it does bring this question!



Nirosi -> RE: Weird little bug, more than 3 subs out of port (5/4/2021 12:25:59 AM)

quote:

People should read my AARs with Hadros (please, I think only one person is reading them).


I read them![:D]



Harrybanana -> RE: Weird little bug, more than 3 subs out of port (5/4/2021 3:26:40 AM)

[:D]
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nirosi

quote:

People should read my AARs with Hadros (please, I think only one person is reading them).


I read them![:D]



I stand corrected, 2 people.[:D]



CHINCHIN -> RE: Weird little bug, more than 3 subs out of port (5/4/2021 11:25:12 AM)

It seems a good tactic not to invade the Netherlands, Norway, and Greece. You prevent UK from receiving a lot of MMs and escorts. But the axis fails to receive 3 victory points for many turns. Can those VPs be important to the final victory?



stjeand -> RE: Weird little bug, more than 3 subs out of port (5/4/2021 12:58:45 PM)

Maybe...but step one is to keep the UK busy while the Axis attempt to conquer the USSR...

IF they are able to...then they can go back and clean up those locations. You can get those victory points taking spots in Russia that the Axis normally do not.


Plus some people, me included, don't really care about the VP victory...
It is more fun seeing if you can take over the world militarily.





stjeand -> RE: Weird little bug, more than 3 subs out of port (5/4/2021 3:52:16 PM)

Here are my 5 subs that missed the convoy lane...SADLY

Would have loved to see if all 5 would attack.

[image]local://upfiles/76402/837A369DA0044174A400CB335051BF45.jpg[/image]



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Weird little bug, more than 3 subs out of port (5/4/2021 4:39:12 PM)

I need to know how you managed to get 5 at sea. I can't replicate this.



stjeand -> RE: Weird little bug, more than 3 subs out of port (5/4/2021 5:06:39 PM)

I wish I could again...

Basically I had 5 subs in Bordeux...and deselected 2 and moved...

All 5 showed up. In the next couple turns I may be able to try again but I need them sinking MS badly.
Chinchin built an INSANE amount.

I have sunk over 300 and he still has more than enough running...unless the Americans suddenly start letting them be used just before 1942...I forget since I do not play the Allies much.



sillyflower -> RE: Weird little bug, more than 3 subs out of port (5/6/2021 5:28:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: stjeand



For me the issue is...no one invades Norway, the Netherland and even Greece anymore due to the massive shipping bonus they provide the Allies instantly and the negligible gain the Axis receive which takes years.
Take the Netherlands...30 MS and 3 Escorts...That is 420 production instantly for the Allies.
The Axis get 3.3 per turn for 4.5 to 5 years? So 130 turns at say 1.75% per turn for a total of 750...but it takes 5 years, not instantly.



Your numbers are correct but assume that UK has enough MS to transport their goodies. If UK 30 is MS short of its need because Holland not invaded by axis, that's a loss of 30PPs a turn, or (I assume) a loss of 45 if a multiplier of 1.5 applies as well. UK therefore loses the 420 PPs and 30 or 45 more every turn it is 30 MS short. Not a bad return for the Germans for a loss of 3 or 4 PPs/turn.

Admittedly, Axis will probably want to take out Holland at a later date, but that's probably going to be after the BoA has been won by the allies so getting the dutch navy will be irrelevant.





AlvaroSousa -> RE: Weird little bug, more than 3 subs out of port (5/6/2021 7:09:49 PM)

I did the same thing. Can't replicate it.



stjeand -> RE: Weird little bug, more than 3 subs out of port (5/6/2021 7:21:04 PM)

At least I was able to show I did have 5 subs out...

I have tried a few times...will keep an eye.



Razz1 -> RE: Weird little bug, more than 3 subs out of port (5/7/2021 6:28:41 PM)

That was the secrect of the Pacific War.

The Dutch won the war.

Without the transports for supplies and movement of men, the Allies would not have won.

It will take some deep digging and research, but you will find the most important asset in the Pacific was Dutch transports.

SO, I don't think you should allow that many transports to go to England if any at all.






ncc1701e -> RE: Weird little bug, more than 3 subs out of port (5/16/2021 1:45:36 PM)

Here is what I have done to reproduce 5 subs at sea in the same hex. I am firing Europe 1942 scenario as Axis player.



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