Barbarossa: warspite1 (Axis) vs AllenK (Soviets) (Full Version)

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warspite1 -> Barbarossa: warspite1 (Axis) vs AllenK (Soviets) (5/14/2021 4:00:44 PM)

This will be the AAR thread for the Germans. The two players are new to this game (I bought WITE on the day it came out and.... well that was it really... never played it). But I've heard good things about WITE2 and so am determined to give it a go - a proper go.

The game won't get underway for a week or so as both will be acclimatising first with an introductory scenario (the Road to Leningrad in my case).

I will probably right some first impressions as I work through.



warspite1 -> RE: Barbarossa: warspite1 (Axis) vs AllenK (Soviets) (5/14/2021 4:34:29 PM)

It's always funny when one falls flat on one's arse straight out of the blocks.....

So I'm looking at Guide No.3 and have the same image on screen as No.3. But.... when I left click on the Unit Bar (which I assume is the light blue bar for AOC's) I don't get the AOG details on the right hand side. How do I make my screen look like No.3 in the One Page Guide #3? What numpty error am I making please [&:]




loki100 -> RE: Barbarossa: warspite1 (Axis) vs AllenK (Soviets) (5/14/2021 4:53:42 PM)

equally daft question ... have you gone through the VL walkthrough in Ch 4, ideally that is as much about 'how do I do ...' as anything else. It may get you past a number of these small frustrations

to the point, if you click on an air command or the FliegerKorps (ie the bigger labels):

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/4281/UIBDfF.jpg[/image]

If I click on VIII Fliegerkorps I get:

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/1523/g1S17q.jpg[/image]

if I click on say JG51, I get:

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/3665/ZU830m.jpg[/image]




Bamilus -> RE: Barbarossa: warspite1 (Axis) vs AllenK (Soviets) (5/14/2021 4:59:57 PM)

Welcome to the WITE2 club, Warspite! Looking forward to it.



warspite1 -> RE: Barbarossa: warspite1 (Axis) vs AllenK (Soviets) (5/14/2021 8:11:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

equally daft question ... have you gone through the VL walkthrough in Ch 4, ideally that is as much about 'how do I do ...' as anything else. It may get you past a number of these small frustrations

to the point, if you click on an air command or the FliegerKorps (ie the bigger labels):

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/4281/UIBDfF.jpg[/image]

If I click on VIII Fliegerkorps I get:

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/1523/g1S17q.jpg[/image]

if I click on say JG51, I get:

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/3665/ZU830m.jpg[/image]


warspite1

Bizarre. Just not happening. Not to worry, I will make a start on Chapter 4 tomorrow. Hopefully that will show me what I'm not doing - thanks for the tip.



warspite1 -> RE: Barbarossa: warspite1 (Axis) vs AllenK (Soviets) (5/14/2021 8:20:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bamilus

Welcome to the WITE2 club, Warspite! Looking forward to it.
warspite1

Me too. My most immediate thought, having looked at Luftflotte 1 is the number of aircraft available to the Germans..... or perhaps I should say the number of aircraft NOT available...... Incredible.



warspite1 -> RE: Barbarossa: warspite1 (Axis) vs AllenK (Soviets) (5/15/2021 10:19:33 AM)

So I am working through Chapter 4 and mucking around with the buttons and reports.

Second impression is that I love the work that has gone into this. The units have so much colour, there is so much detail, there is huge scope to get massively invested in the units here - possibly too much!

Third impression follows the first; just how are the Germans supposed to win with the relatively small number of units and men available to them?? The map is too big, the enemy too numerous and the supply chain too precarious....

I am now wishing I insisted on playing the Soviets...[;)]

From my old dad's Purnell's Encyclopaedia. This sort of thing leaves a big impression on an 8-year old boy - look at all those divisions (whatever they are, they sound impressive). [:)]

[image]local://upfiles/28156/798736643B9A46F3BC7E2EC9DF1930E7.jpg[/image]



warspite1 -> RE: Barbarossa: warspite1 (Axis) vs AllenK (Soviets) (5/29/2021 4:27:03 PM)

So I've decided that its time just to get stuck in. I am not really taking in much of what I'm reading (I don't like reading on screen anyway) and I'm not waiting for the physical copy to arrive.

So (hopefully) I've done enough to at least get the game started and then I'll see how it goes. To aid things I am using the AI for the air and the depot management at the end of the turn.

I have also ticked for more control of the theatre boxes.

Targets for the Germans are of course as per real life and, without having played the game, I'm going to set these real life objectives for each army group.... whether I get anywhere close to any of them remains to be seen.

Operation Barbarossa

Mmmm, that's daunting....it's a tad larger than France....but at least it looks nice and green so the going shouldn't be too difficult, and I'm sure there is an extensive road and rail network to rely on.

[image]local://upfiles/28156/4E0768D13B6447ACB5156036E12FAA16.jpg[/image]



altipueri -> RE: Barbarossa: warspite1 (Axis) vs AllenK (Soviets) (5/29/2021 4:54:09 PM)

I tried to warn you.

Anyway, my manual arrived yesterday, and crippled the postman trying to deliver it.


I'll never play this game properly, life is getting too short, but the manual can be used to kill Triffids if thrown a bit like a discus.



Beethoven1 -> RE: Barbarossa: warspite1 (Axis) vs AllenK (Soviets) (5/29/2021 7:10:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Operation Barbarossa

Mmmm, that's daunting....


It is indeed. Good luck!



warspite1 -> RE: Barbarossa: warspite1 (Axis) vs AllenK (Soviets) (5/30/2021 7:18:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: altipueri

I tried to warn you.

Anyway, my manual arrived yesterday, and crippled the postman trying to deliver it.


I'll never play this game properly, life is getting too short, but the manual can be used to kill Triffids if thrown a bit like a discus.

warspite1

Hahahaha - given my inability to play most wargames, I have no such pretentions of this either [:)]



warspite1 -> RE: Barbarossa: warspite1 (Axis) vs AllenK (Soviets) (5/30/2021 7:18:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Beethoven1

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Operation Barbarossa

Mmmm, that's daunting....


It is indeed. Good luck!
warspite1

Thank you sir!



warspite1 -> RE: Barbarossa: warspite1 (Axis) vs AllenK (Soviets) (5/30/2021 11:06:08 AM)

There are so many excellent AARs here. But for this first turn I am going to consult carlkay58's excellent "Another March to the East". The reason being is that he provides some breakdown of the first turn. I must confess a lot of what is being explained is waaay over my head at the moment (and there is the danger he's taken liberties he wouldn't against a human), but at least I can use this as some sort of framework.

I am pleased to see that I had one idea, independent of carlkay that I see he has used. I don't understand how some units get as far as they do in the various AAR, so to try and help I decide to use reserve/army divisions in the initial assaults so that units in the front line can move as far as possible.

So on the basis that I don't understand the rationale for some of his actions anyway, its no fun just copying and not learning, and my opponent is new to the game so hopefully he will make mistakes too, I am going to refresh my memory of carlkay's actions and then just open up the game and get stuck in for better or worse.



loki100 -> RE: Barbarossa: warspite1 (Axis) vs AllenK (Soviets) (5/30/2021 11:27:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

There are so many excellent AARs here. But for this first turn I am going to consult carlkay58's excellent "Another March to the East". The reason being is that he provides some breakdown of the first turn. I must confess a lot of what is being explained is waaay over my head at the moment (and there is the danger he's taken liberties he wouldn't against a human), but at least I can use this as some sort of framework.

I am pleased to see that I had one idea, independent of carlkay that I see he has used. I don't understand how some units get as far as they do in the various AAR, so to try and help I decide to use reserve/army divisions in the initial assaults so that units in the front line can move as far as possible.


good plan

I'd suggest 2 things to plan around. Make the Bialystok pocket as secure as you can (and take Minsk), those should be the focus for AGC, work out from that minimum as you use additional formations. But esp in HtH they really matter.

elsewhere, while you don't want to reckless, don't over worry about a spearhead getting cut off. Axis formations can self-supply for the first couple of turns off the stocks in division at the start. So as long as you can free up the cut-off formations (which you should), you'll see they regain a lot of MP.



warspite1 -> RE: Barbarossa: warspite1 (Axis) vs AllenK (Soviets) (5/30/2021 11:41:51 AM)

Turn 1
22nd June 1941

I don't make any changes to what I've been presented with in terms of priority and instead assume that the starting positions are good to start a game.

The air phase is massively damaging for the Germans it seems. That is a fair chunk of the post Battle of Britain Luftwaffe gone for a burton....and as for the pilots.....

It could be there were tweeks I could have made to the air game but I assumed that this was not necessary if using the air directive. Hopefully the Soviets will have the same problem.


Ouch!!
[image]local://upfiles/28156/C2668611B5354CB58FC42E437BB7224F.jpg[/image]



carlkay58 -> RE: Barbarossa: warspite1 (Axis) vs AllenK (Soviets) (5/30/2021 1:30:19 PM)

The advantage of the opening turn is that it does not matter whether your opponent is the AI or Human - it all plays the same. I cannot stress enough that Loki is right about the Bialystok pocket - it needs to be bulletproof as that sets the stage for your advance into the Soviet Union for the very important first few turns.



loki100 -> RE: Barbarossa: warspite1 (Axis) vs AllenK (Soviets) (5/30/2021 2:19:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Turn 1
22nd June 1941

I don't make any changes to what I've been presented with in terms of priority and instead assume that the starting positions are good to start a game.

The air phase is massively damaging for the Germans it seems. That is a fair chunk of the post Battle of Britain Luftwaffe gone for a burton....and as for the pilots.....

It could be there were tweeks I could have made to the air game but I assumed that this was not necessary if using the air directive. Hopefully the Soviets will have the same problem.
...


at some stage those at start ADs need a major overhaul, just its one of those non-trivial tasks that is far more complex than may appear.

The problem is they were created when interception was less effective so running unescorted deep missions was feasible.

Now the good news, if you keep an eye on the GS on/off button you can really do a number on the VVS during the ground phase. They will bravely head towards the battlefields and your fighters will be able to knock out around 2,000+ more planes (& their pilots to). Just as you work around a sector, turn GS off once you notice the VVS is no longer active - no point wasting air mileage over the battles then. Key is you don't need GS for its battle winning aspect (that comes T5+), its for the abiity to make the VVS fight - very much on your terms



warspite1 -> RE: Barbarossa: warspite1 (Axis) vs AllenK (Soviets) (5/30/2021 6:27:30 PM)

Army Group North

Because I wanted to get the game back to AllenK quickly (the turn took far longer than I was expecting), the number of pictures and tables I've printed haven't been that many.

I hope to increase the number - and properly target them - going forward.

The print quality suffers when reducing the size of the picture which is annoying.... however, this is all I have for this turn so I will make do as best I can.

Following carlkay has its plus and minuses. Of course the pluses hugely outweigh the minuses because at least I had some idea of what was what by following his example first turn.

The downside of course is that when things go wrong then its not always clear what is required - or even if redemption is possible.

To that end I don't think too much went wrong in the north. But the Bialystok pocket is potentially a little precarious (although of course I say that without really having an understanding of what the Soviets can do in response).

Despite the poor quality I will attempts to put some detail to the pictures.

The obvious good news is that Panzer Group 4 has secured some bridgeheads over the Dvina - between Riga on the coast to Daugvapils. In addition, a motorised infantry regiment from Panzer Group 3 has secured a crossing further east. PG4's infantry are racing to catch up with the panzers.

18th and 16th Armies lag some way behind.

Also in this picture are much of both of the 4th Army and the Panzer Group 3 and their attempts to try and secure the northern shoulder of the Bialystok pocket. Just out of picture (but picked up below) is Minsk which has been captured by PG3, with PG2 linking up south of the city.

[image]local://upfiles/28156/243B7BE5AB8B477D8EF80FB02DB7F158.jpg[/image]



warspite1 -> RE: Barbarossa: warspite1 (Axis) vs AllenK (Soviets) (5/30/2021 8:50:03 PM)

Army Group Centre

Ohhh that's better resolution [:)]

This is my carlkay inspired attempt at a Bialystok pocket. Sadly, it went a bit wrong around Minsk and I am concerned that this is insufficiently tight. There seems to be quite a few routed units in the bag so I am hopeful that my forces will hold. But I don't particularly like the look of the junction between Hoth and Guderian's forces around Minsk. In order to try and get depth I've had to mix and match corps which I suspect is not ideal.

In the southwest I made a real dog's breakfast of trying to eliminate the border units, but I think (hope) I recovered sufficiently. However, recovered or not, 4th Army looks to be spread over a large area.

[image]local://upfiles/28156/FBBD036219B949689F96B3F0C579A319.jpg[/image]



warspite1 -> RE: Barbarossa: warspite1 (Axis) vs AllenK (Soviets) (5/30/2021 9:00:07 PM)

Army Group South

The action in Army Group South area was much lighter and there are no great pockets of Soviets to be gobbled up.

I shall have to look up the rules on the Romanians, Hungarians and 11th Army joining the party next turn.

[image]local://upfiles/28156/C21EBA7A6F6D4FD1AB684F3604192584.jpg[/image]



warspite1 -> RE: Barbarossa: warspite1 (Axis) vs AllenK (Soviets) (5/30/2021 9:07:53 PM)

Turn 1
Ground Losses

On the ground those numbers seem okay. I will need to look at some other AAR to gauge exactly where I am for a first turn. I was very impressed with the Germans uniformly stopping at 6,000 exactly killed. Quite a few guns and AFV lost too.

[image]local://upfiles/28156/F99E7986D16742608165FF30433EFF94.jpg[/image]



warspite1 -> RE: Barbarossa: warspite1 (Axis) vs AllenK (Soviets) (5/30/2021 9:15:12 PM)

Turn 1
Aircraft Losses

...this however will be altogether more painful. As loki said, the Soviets lost more aircraft during the ground fighting, but the German losses continued to climb too....

655 aircraft and 579 aircrew. That's really not good news....

[image]local://upfiles/28156/F247F4C1DD714FB78A1C9A3DDCC62A0C.jpg[/image]



warspite1 -> RE: Barbarossa: warspite1 (Axis) vs AllenK (Soviets) (5/30/2021 9:21:30 PM)

Turn 1
Destroyed

Finally its the destroyed units - all Soviet I am pleased to say at the moment.

[image]local://upfiles/28156/D695F3A8D5B4488A8A85C478EDB8E89E.jpg[/image]



Seminole -> RE: Barbarossa: warspite1 (Axis) vs AllenK (Soviets) (5/30/2021 10:47:11 PM)

2x the combat losses to operational losses the first turn?
Where are the losses coming? Unescorted bombers?



warspite1 -> RE: Barbarossa: warspite1 (Axis) vs AllenK (Soviets) (5/31/2021 8:11:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

2x the combat losses to operational losses the first turn?
Where are the losses coming? Unescorted bombers?
warspite1

I'll see what stats are available when the game comes back to me.



loki100 -> RE: Barbarossa: warspite1 (Axis) vs AllenK (Soviets) (5/31/2021 8:21:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

2x the combat losses to operational losses the first turn?
Where are the losses coming? Unescorted bombers?
warspite1

I'll see what stats are available when the game comes back to me.


I'd say yes, your operational losses are not unusual, what stands out is the ratio of air combat losses between the 2 sides (& the overall high loss of bombers).

did you turn on/off the GS option as the ground turn progressed? Realise its something else to remember but it is really important. Neither side have the air assets to just randomise the commitment, GS has to be chosen to fit the task.

One good thing re your losses. Crudely from about T2-T5 the LW is largely useless. You can't move it to keep cover over the spearheads, its a complete waste used to clear up the T1 pockets. So by the time you can use it again (say around Smolensk, Kiev and Pskov) it should have largely recovered from that battering.

Now against an experienced Soviet player that is a problem, they will do all sorts of nasty things while the cat is recovering from being declawed. Here I suspect your opponent probably won't spot the chance, but it'll be interesting to see if he does [8D]

In general, much more than the first game, it really helps to have played both sides, you get a better feel for capabilities and what a given level of damage actually means



warspite1 -> RE: Barbarossa: warspite1 (Axis) vs AllenK (Soviets) (5/31/2021 8:33:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

2x the combat losses to operational losses the first turn?
Where are the losses coming? Unescorted bombers?
warspite1

I'll see what stats are available when the game comes back to me.


did you turn on/off the GS option as the ground turn progressed? Realise its something else to remember but it is really important. Neither side have the air assets to just randomise the commitment, GS has to be chosen to fit the task.

warspite1

I didn't see an obvious time to turn off the GS. But there was so much going and I was trying to take it all in. Maybe I missed something obvious, but from what I could see, the Soviets kept being spanked in the air so I thought lets keep that going to make up some earlier losses.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

Now against an experienced Soviet player that is a problem, they will do all sorts of nasty things while the cat is recovering from being declawed. Here I suspect your opponent probably won't spot the chance, but it'll be interesting to see if he does

warspite1

We are both using AI for the air so presumably my opponent is in the same situation I am? Or is there scope for him to do something within the AI framework?



loki100 -> RE: Barbarossa: warspite1 (Axis) vs AllenK (Soviets) (5/31/2021 9:15:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

....
I didn't see an obvious time to turn off the GS. But there was so much going and I was trying to take it all in. Maybe I missed something obvious, but from what I could see, the Soviets kept being spanked in the air so I thought lets keep that going to make up some earlier losses.....

...


key is to only use your figthers so flip GS off and they still commit - see the rules at the end of 18.1.3

its always a matter of choice but there is a good reason to work through RTL and DSWF before the main campaign, there are a lot of these things to the game design and while a lot of effort went into reducing the heffalump traps they still exist and best experienced in the context of something that is no big deal to restart etc

quote:

warspite1

We are both using AI for the air so presumably my opponent is in the same situation I am? Or is there scope for him to do something within the AI framework?



aye that will limit the options but you'll still have Soviet bombers hitting your railyards so put some AA into places like Minsk



warspite1 -> RE: Barbarossa: warspite1 (Axis) vs AllenK (Soviets) (6/1/2021 3:23:58 PM)

So I've got the Soviet turn back. Now is the small matter of working out what the hell.....[X(]

As with my first turn, there is no point me trying to get to grips with everything as it simply won't work. So I will go through and look at what I can and, if I think something looks like an immediate 'need to know' then I will drill down.

First thing I will do is look at:

a) a quick scan of the battleground to see if there is anything of obvious concern as a result of the Soviet turn
b) some high level numbers
c) areas that I think need looking at in order to best undertake turn 2.



warspite1 -> RE: Barbarossa: warspite1 (Axis) vs AllenK (Soviets) (6/1/2021 3:24:27 PM)

Turn 1
Soviet Response

Army Group North

AGN first. There appears to be no Soviets in Kurland - and no land route opened up across the Dvina. So either they are oos thanks to FOW or they have got away across the Gulf of Riga.

The pocket in Lithuania between Kaunas and Riga appears to have opened up and there is little by way of Soviets left that I can see - so perhaps some units got back across the Dvina between two the two motorised regiments.

There were no land battles on this front.

[image]local://upfiles/28156/4DF62EDC1E32425A8ECFE4043C9E2549.jpg[/image]



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