RE: Hell on Earth (Axis) HLYA vs (Soviet) JubJub

RE: Hell on Earth (Axis) HLYA vs (Soviet) JubJub (Full Version)

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HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Hell on Earth (Axis) HLYA vs (Soviet) JubJub (8/3/2021 6:09:32 PM)
Turn 2 This one I may or may not Cancel. Haven't decided yet. Would be another 5 turns minimum for the BF-110 fighter to get to Western Europe from the scheduled departure on turn 5. Plus, I don't know once this plane auto transfer to Western Europe if it will become locked. If anyone knows please let me know so I don't have to test it out. Thank you in advance. I might just do it and take the hit if it does. Can't be that big of a hit this early in the game. ** Please note this is a stock photo from Turn 1 not in our current game *** [image]local://upfiles/53556/F01B8C0B15AE44949C82A1938791EBE5.jpg[/image]

Rosencrantus -> RE: Hell on Earth (Axis) HLYA vs (Soviet) JubJub (8/3/2021 6:42:57 PM)
Not 100% sure but I think if the unit isn't locked on T1 and you have enhanced TB on, you can move it wherever you want.

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Hell on Earth (Axis) HLYA vs (Soviet) JubJub (8/3/2021 6:43:01 PM)
Turn 2 If you are playing the Soviets you may want to consider disbanding depots you think will fall into enemy hands. I don't mind if you don't disband them though. Just saying ;-) [image]local://upfiles/53556/2985C08FCA13439D9DCA29395039866F.jpg[/image]

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Hell on Earth (Axis) HLYA vs (Soviet) JubJub (8/3/2021 6:45:23 PM)
I have had only one Soviet disband depots. The little things add up.

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Hell on Earth (Axis) HLYA vs (Soviet) JubJub (8/3/2021 6:48:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rosencrantus Not 100% sure but I think if the unit isn't locked on T1 and you have enhanced TB on, you can move it wherever you want. Ya, I don't know either. :( Just going to test it out and run a couple campaigns from T1 and test what happens to this II/JG27 when it transfer to Western Europe. It may get locked or get stuck or may not be able to move because under a certain threshold. Will find out and let everyone know. Thank you!

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Hell on Earth (Axis) HLYA vs (Soviet) JubJub (8/3/2021 10:20:13 PM)
Turn 2 More units on the way to Soviet Union. Rail Conversion is a must. +2 more a turn hexes converted and in 10 turns that is 20 hexes. The Germans need these desperately since rail conversion is a HUGE problem for the Germans. [image]local://upfiles/53556/8C1FD073CF87443E8D52D012DF752F18.jpg[/image]

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Hell on Earth (Axis) HLYA vs (Soviet) JubJub (8/3/2021 10:47:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain quote: ORIGINAL: Rosencrantus Not 100% sure but I think if the unit isn't locked on T1 and you have enhanced TB on, you can move it wherever you want. Ya, I don't know either. :( Just going to test it out and run a couple campaigns from T1 and test what happens to this II/JG27 when it transfer to Western Europe. It may get locked or get stuck or may not be able to move because under a certain threshold. Will find out and let everyone know. Thank you! Tested it and they wont lock. Other fighters become unlocked when the requirements are met(yellow to grey). So just have to make sure of that. Hmmmmmm, which fighters can I take now with high experience and morale. /evil grin

tyronec -> RE: Hell on Earth (Axis) HLYA vs (Soviet) JubJub (8/4/2021 8:40:03 AM)
quote: Turn 2 More units on the way to Soviet Union. Rail Conversion is a must. +2 more a turn hexes converted and in 10 turns that is 20 hexes. The Germans need these desperately since rail conversion is a HUGE problem for the Germans. This is why I would never play with TB transfer on. The impact of TB transfers was never evaluated during testing and there are various exploits available, probably for both sides. IMO it is is better as a tool in games versus the AI for players who want to look at historical what-ifs.

GibsonPete -> RE: Hell on Earth (Axis) HLYA vs (Soviet) JubJub (8/4/2021 10:18:02 AM)
The TB transfer on is a balancing act that I believe offers advantages and disadvantages to the player. I am interested in seeing how this plays out. I appreciate you playing with the TB on.

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Hell on Earth (Axis) HLYA vs (Soviet) JubJub (8/4/2021 12:27:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tyronec quote: Turn 2 More units on the way to Soviet Union. Rail Conversion is a must. +2 more a turn hexes converted and in 10 turns that is 20 hexes. The Germans need these desperately since rail conversion is a HUGE problem for the Germans. This is why I would never play with TB transfer on. The impact of TB transfers was never evaluated during testing and there are various exploits available, probably for both sides. IMO it is is better as a tool in games versus the AI for players who want to look at historical what-ifs. You were the primary tester for this game through the majority of BETA with the ears of the developers. Lots of the items you posted I agreed with in BETA. Many other items I did not agree with you in BETA. In this instance I don't agree with you yet again since this was NEVER evaluated as you stated. If it wasn't evaluated how do you know the exploits? Or the pitfalls for that matter? How do you know what type of games people want to play? You don't, so I say if the developers left this in then it is an option for people to play with. I for one LOVE what-if scenarios that I can pull from other fronts to try. But if the player is not that a-historical type of person that has to have your scenario nailed down to the last nut and bolt in place. Then by all means don't play with TB ON.

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Hell on Earth (Axis) HLYA vs (Soviet) JubJub (8/4/2021 12:42:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GibsonPete The TB transfer on is a balancing act that I believe offers advantages and disadvantages to the player. I am interested in seeing how this plays out. I appreciate you playing with the TB on. I was in Beta but played very little compared to some others. I played a few weeks in 2017 & like a month or so before game release 2021. The TB transfer boxes from the times I was in the BETA was off limits so the concentration was on a historical game. What I do remember was the constant warning not to mess with anything in the TB transfer boxes. This was said many times and even said today. This eccentric elaborate maze of withdraws and reinforcements is what I want to get to the bottom of. Because the next game coming out will be the whole War in Europe and when that happens I will be able to move any unit where & when I want anyway. I personally love the what-if with units. BUT I am 100% sure I am opening up Pandora's box and that knife cuts both ways. I want to see it play out for good or bad.

jubjub -> RE: Hell on Earth (Axis) HLYA vs (Soviet) JubJub (8/4/2021 1:16:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain quote: ORIGINAL: tyronec quote: Turn 2 More units on the way to Soviet Union. Rail Conversion is a must. +2 more a turn hexes converted and in 10 turns that is 20 hexes. The Germans need these desperately since rail conversion is a HUGE problem for the Germans. This is why I would never play with TB transfer on. The impact of TB transfers was never evaluated during testing and there are various exploits available, probably for both sides. IMO it is is better as a tool in games versus the AI for players who want to look at historical what-ifs. You were the primary tester for this game through the majority of BETA with the ears of the developers. Lots of the items you posted I agreed with in BETA. Many other items I did not agree with you in BETA. In this instance I don't agree with you yet again since this was NEVER evaluated as you stated. If it wasn't evaluated how do you know the exploits? Or the pitfalls for that matter? How do you know what type of games people want to play? You don't, so I say if the developers left this in then it is an option for people to play with. I for one LOVE what-if scenarios that I can pull from other fronts to try. But if the player is not that a-historical type of person that has to have your scenario nailed down to the last nut and bolt in place. Then by all means don't play with TB ON. I hate how the engine historically transfers your full strength panzer divisions to 'refit' in France on the cusp of Blau, takes important infantry divisions off the line in November '41, and prevents you as the player from transferring units to refit in France without getting it stuck there for the rest of the game. Besides those issues and a few other small modifications, I typically leave transfers alone. That's just how I use it as Axis, and obviously you're free to do your worst with the TB's [;)].

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Hell on Earth (Axis) HLYA vs (Soviet) JubJub (8/4/2021 1:30:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jubjub quote: ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain quote: ORIGINAL: tyronec quote: Turn 2 More units on the way to Soviet Union. Rail Conversion is a must. +2 more a turn hexes converted and in 10 turns that is 20 hexes. The Germans need these desperately since rail conversion is a HUGE problem for the Germans. This is why I would never play with TB transfer on. The impact of TB transfers was never evaluated during testing and there are various exploits available, probably for both sides. IMO it is is better as a tool in games versus the AI for players who want to look at historical what-ifs. You were the primary tester for this game through the majority of BETA with the ears of the developers. Lots of the items you posted I agreed with in BETA. Many other items I did not agree with you in BETA. In this instance I don't agree with you yet again since this was NEVER evaluated as you stated. If it wasn't evaluated how do you know the exploits? Or the pitfalls for that matter? How do you know what type of games people want to play? You don't, so I say if the developers left this in then it is an option for people to play with. I for one LOVE what-if scenarios that I can pull from other fronts to try. But if the player is not that a-historical type of person that has to have your scenario nailed down to the last nut and bolt in place. Then by all means don't play with TB ON. I hate how the engine historically transfers your full strength panzer divisions to 'refit' in France on the cusp of Blau, takes important infantry divisions off the line in November '41, and prevents you as the player from transferring units to refit in France without getting it stuck there for the rest of the game. Besides those issues and a few other small modifications, I typically leave transfers alone. That's just how I use it as Axis, and obviously you're free to do your worst with the TB's [;)]. I don't know if I am ready for combat ground forces yet. I am thinking baby steps this game going for Air force and the two R.A.D. Battalions. I am really curious the long term affects the two R.A.D removal from Norway will have. The Airforce is getting just different Airframes but same transfers and withdraw schedule. But I am sure you could probably fine tune your TB transfer boxes too :) I never looked at the Soviets but always something you can do I would think :) If you find something please share

tyronec -> RE: Hell on Earth (Axis) HLYA vs (Soviet) JubJub (8/5/2021 6:19:49 AM)
quote: You were the primary tester for this game through the majority of BETA with the ears of the developers. Lots of the items you posted I agreed with in BETA. Many other items I did not agree with you in BETA. In this instance I don't agree with you yet again since this was NEVER evaluated as you stated. If it wasn't evaluated how do you know the exploits? Or the pitfalls for that matter? How do you know what type of games people want to play? You don't, so I say if the developers left this in then it is an option for people to play with. I for one LOVE what-if scenarios that I can pull from other fronts to try. But if the player is not that a-historical type of person that has to have your scenario nailed down to the last nut and bolt in place. Then by all means don't play with TB ON. That is a fair response. I don't know what the exploits are or what pitfalls there might be and it is only by playing with the TB that you will find out. So given that your opponent is happy with that then good luck to you. The Devs have a formula for the TB criteria, by it's very nature that formula cannot be an accurate measurement of the value of units at the front for different periods of the war, measured against the benefits and penalties of meeting the criteria. I guess if they continue to refine the formula over time then it will get more accurate to counter the exploits, but I don't know if there is a commitment to doing that or if it is even worth the effort. I think a lot of the warnings about the TB during testing were to do with the mechanics and presumably those issues have been resolved.

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Hell on Earth (Axis) HLYA vs (Soviet) JubJub (8/5/2021 5:07:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tyronec quote: You were the primary tester for this game through the majority of BETA with the ears of the developers. Lots of the items you posted I agreed with in BETA. Many other items I did not agree with you in BETA. In this instance I don't agree with you yet again since this was NEVER evaluated as you stated. If it wasn't evaluated how do you know the exploits? Or the pitfalls for that matter? How do you know what type of games people want to play? You don't, so I say if the developers left this in then it is an option for people to play with. I for one LOVE what-if scenarios that I can pull from other fronts to try. But if the player is not that a-historical type of person that has to have your scenario nailed down to the last nut and bolt in place. Then by all means don't play with TB ON. That is a fair response. I don't know what the exploits are or what pitfalls there might be and it is only by playing with the TB that you will find out. So given that your opponent is happy with that then good luck to you. The Devs have a formula for the TB criteria, by it's very nature that formula cannot be an accurate measurement of the value of units at the front for different periods of the war, measured against the benefits and penalties of meeting the criteria. I guess if they continue to refine the formula over time then it will get more accurate to counter the exploits, but I don't know if there is a commitment to doing that or if it is even worth the effort. I think a lot of the warnings about the TB during testing were to do with the mechanics and presumably those issues have been resolved. :-) I am really only planning on doing the Fighters and the 2 RAD battalions. And the fighters I am just basically changing out BF-110's for Me-109's to see what happens. So nothing more drastic than that the first time around. I guess I will be a test dummy for TB :)

Joel Billings -> RE: Hell on Earth (Axis) HLYA vs (Soviet) JubJub (8/5/2021 5:23:01 PM)
Yes, most was due to us not getting the mechanics set until very late. Then there was the job of balancing all the requirements throughout the war. We could only really test this with AI vs AI games, which as we all know is not what happens once you involve players (whether vs AI or against another player). IIRC, one thing we did just before release was to make it much more likely of getting a failure if under the requirement than of getting a success when over the requirement. You can see this in the editor in the events "probability" of occurrence. This is especially true in North Africa because we didn't have time to model the limited shipping capacity to North Africa (for units and supplies). We talked about doing that, but never had time to add it. We've talked about adding it post release, but again, there are many more important issues to work on, so it will likely be some time before we look at this. So I think it's fair to say the players will be penalized if they short the various theaters, and they can only short them so much before the 90% rule kicks in. But it will be harder to get a big advantage by shifting forces to a TB. Of course even the 90% rule allows for some mini-maxing by the players. We will react as we get feedback, especially if it only involves data/scenario changes, but it can take a long time to hear from enough players that have tried different strategies.

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Hell on Earth (Axis) HLYA vs (Soviet) JubJub (8/5/2021 5:26:04 PM)
Turn 2 AD Suprem I did set up an AD for the area circled in orange (I forgot to take a screenshot of it). I also had other AD Suprem set up too. The 109's did use drop tanks & those planes were already in place from the previous turn on an airbase close. Even though you can transfer and setup an AD Suprem in the same turn I prefer to have them on an airbase already rested. I was going to do 3 flights of Air Suprem into this area but at the last second canceled 2 of those AD's. After receiving turn 3 back I wish I had stuck with my gut feeling ;-) [image]local://upfiles/53556/A12EDD6589DB46EE9E57AA385827D984.jpg[/image]

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Hell on Earth (Axis) HLYA vs (Soviet) JubJub (8/5/2021 5:29:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Joel Billings Yes, most was due to us not getting the mechanics set until very late. Then there was the job of balancing all the requirements throughout the war. We could only really test this with AI vs AI games, which as we all know is not what happens once you involve players (whether vs AI or against another player). IIRC, one thing we did just before release was to make it much more likely of getting a failure if under the requirement than of getting a success when over the requirement. You can see this in the editor in the events "probability" of occurrence. This is especially true in North Africa because we didn't have time to model the limited shipping capacity to North Africa (for units and supplies). We talked about doing that, but never had time to add it. We've talked about adding it post release, but again, there are many more important issues to work on, so it will likely be some time before we look at this. So I think it's fair to say the players will be penalized if they short the various theaters, and they can only short them so much before the 90% rule kicks in. But it will be harder to get a big advantage by shifting forces to a TB. Of course even the 90% rule allows for some mini-maxing by the players. We will react as we get feedback, especially if it only involves data/scenario changes, but it can take a long time to hear from enough players that have tried different strategies. Thank you Joel for that. Will keep posted of what I do and when so all can see. If Jubjub does the same for the Soviets I would implore him to do likewise which I am sure he will :)

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Hell on Earth (Axis) HLYA vs (Soviet) JubJub (8/5/2021 5:38:53 PM)
Turn 2 End of Turn Tallinn I take as much territory as I can safely grab. Notice I always try and have at least interlocking ZoC's. Very very very rarely do I ever leave openings in my line for the Soviets to infiltrate in(meaning NO interlocking ZOC). *If at any time you are playing in your backfield cleaning up Soviet units you are losing.* I cannot emphasis this enough! Notice 1/Totenkoph is next to the rail to stop any rail traffic in or out at a minimum. The Totenkoph regiment could have gone farther but not worth being cut off if any other Soviets out here. Rather have the Soviet to try and dislodge 1/Totenkoph where it is instead and keeping lines of communication to the rear. Also look at 2/3 MD forcing any march to the east to go through Heavy woods and swamp if the Soviets want to get back to Leningrad area. (sea transport faster though :) [image]local://upfiles/53556/EB126EAF4FEA4E95BF959E036B9FC5B3.jpg[/image]

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Hell on Earth (Axis) HLYA vs (Soviet) JubJub (8/5/2021 5:52:48 PM)
Turn 2 End of Turn Pskov End of turn of Pskov area. See if the Soviets stay or try to run a few divisions out. Airlifting should be off the table this time from the two Soviet Airbases inside the semi closed pocket because of the Air Supremency AD. But you never know these days. (That was why I was contemplating 3 Supremency AD's to the Area, but didn't in the long run :( [image]local://upfiles/53556/52DD741E7ECB4C40809E309125E7B590.jpg[/image]

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Hell on Earth (Axis) HLYA vs (Soviet) JubJub (8/5/2021 6:00:36 PM)
Turn 2 End of Turn A picture speaks a bunch of words. What do you see of the 4th Army? Anyone? [image]local://upfiles/53556/13C8AF2C9255418AABCD28356BF4F3C7.jpg[/image]

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Hell on Earth (Axis) HLYA vs (Soviet) JubJub (8/5/2021 6:26:15 PM)
Turn 2 End of Turn Port/railyard Level 2 Liepaja Liepaja port/Level 2 Railyard is so important for me now I incorporate this into my rail network along with Riga at a minimum. IF Ventspils to Riga Railroad has a few breaks in the railroad I will also take the time to fix that railroad to incorporate that Level 2 railyard. I got lucky with 2 auto railroad repair regiments near Ventspils :-) [image]local://upfiles/53556/8EE9568CF01649C2A6E1131D6F133041.jpg[/image]

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Hell on Earth (Axis) HLYA vs (Soviet) JubJub (8/5/2021 6:28:20 PM)
Turn 2 End of Turn I also want to point out the following that some may be forgetting which is very important to keep an eye on. Please read the following rule from the manual. [image]local://upfiles/53556/49824B34A075429CA799179A70241472.jpg[/image]

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Hell on Earth (Axis) HLYA vs (Soviet) JubJub (8/5/2021 6:38:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain Turn 2 End of Turn I also want to point out the following that some may be forgetting which is very important to keep an eye on. Please read the following rule from the manual. [image]local://upfiles/53556/49824B34A075429CA799179A70241472.jpg[/image] You will want to check your railyards/Ports and make sure you are prioritizing your repairs. The AI doesn't always send construction workers where they are needed on your rail line. Keep an eye on this to get your supply network Railyards working fast! Here you see that I spent 1 AP point to prioritize work on a Level2 railyard over the port repair which is default behavior in a Port/railyard hex. The * detonates the priority. BUT be careful, once you spend that 1AP it is gone. You can't reclick and get a refund, you will just turn off the priority! (Doesn't show it but I also assign a construction worker there after the picture had been taken) [image]local://upfiles/53556/ACFB085145F5411C847586380A7ABD50.jpg[/image]

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Hell on Earth (Axis) HLYA vs (Soviet) JubJub (8/5/2021 8:26:22 PM)
Turn 2 End of Turn As can be seen here the rule came into effect and 2 construction workers were sent to Brest to help speed the Level 2 railyard repair. I don't need to do anything here since the AI did it for me costing me no AP per the rule in the Manual. But as seen in last post if you want to prioritize a port/railyard you are going to have to pay for the railyard prioritization since port is default :( I take the time to make sure my major rail lines have construction workers fixing Level 2 railyards in my railroad net. The quicker the better. I also go for Level 2 railyards in the Soviet Union as quickly as possible too to incorporate them in. [image]local://upfiles/53556/FCB6313CC73D4D7F8074F9E889B8A791.jpg[/image]

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Hell on Earth (Axis) HLYA vs (Soviet) JubJub (8/5/2021 8:30:32 PM)
Turn 2 End of Turn Brest Supply for the turn looks pretty good. [image]local://upfiles/53556/F48118ECBB514B79A45B40BC276205D8.jpg[/image]

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Hell on Earth (Axis) HLYA vs (Soviet) JubJub (8/5/2021 8:39:33 PM)
Turn 2 End of Turn Minor probs towards Velkie Luki and Vitebsk with a couple mobile units. Able to cut North/South rail at VL as mentioned earlier. [image]local://upfiles/53556/98E8D14306BF446EA1AA37E9EE42E383.jpg[/image]

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Hell on Earth (Axis) HLYA vs (Soviet) JubJub (8/5/2021 8:49:02 PM)
Turn 2 End of Turn Minsk Caught a slow moving Soviet Division circled in orange, which I promply surrounded. I stop for all Soviets. A little off subject but close enough is that I LOVE Soviets units left out front of the main line. That is like cake before the main meal :) I have played many Soviets that do this(many many Soviets do it) but I don't know if they realize it but the Germans can surround these in front units easily and over the whole front in one turn will add up to normally 5-10 units. That is a lot of free prisoners. But I digress. Do continue Soviets :) I love cake before a meal. [image]local://upfiles/53556/F3B39DA5F8A547F5AB1E6F3E71086077.jpg[/image]

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Hell on Earth (Axis) HLYA vs (Soviet) JubJub (8/5/2021 8:55:47 PM)
Turn 2 End of Turn In the South I am playing different than I have in previous games based on some thoughts I have. So far it is playing out as I thought it would :-) [image]local://upfiles/53556/29F23464672A4E47BA032F935870D5A8.jpg[/image]

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Hell on Earth (Axis) HLYA vs (Soviet) JubJub (8/5/2021 8:57:02 PM)
I will start posting units to picture shortly. But not at the moment on some of these areas.

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