Learning Curve

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drum_taps -> Learning Curve (7/28/2021 2:07:02 AM)
I should introduce myself, since I have not used this forum in well over a decade. I don't even remember what my user name was or even have access to the email account I had associated with the forgotten user name. I was for a short period of time playing uncommon valor and later the follow up, WIP. But, I had better get to the point. I began playing the Admiral's Edition back in January. I had figured since I played WIP years ago I could forgo the smaller scenario shoot straight into the grans campaign. I do not know if the Admiral's Edition is just that more complex than plain WIP or my 67 yo brain is not as agile as my 50 yo brain, but over 2 months of real time I found I had Australia sucked dry of fuel. It would take a week just to get fuel trickling in. I then decided to toss in the towel and start a new game. Game 2 which I started in March at present has gone south. This time I did not properly take care of the East. My neglect was so bad I Japan has taken over all of Burma and gone into India and has taken Cox's Bazaar. Units which Should be in Burma are in India. By the time I figured out I was in PP trouble I was in negative territory and losing 50 PP per turn. I've decided to throw in the towel on another game I spent months on. I've got to be insane because I am going to start another game. This time, I am going back to one of the smaller scenarios and try that. Who knows I might just be to dumb to a game this now. Anyhow, I'll apologize in advance. I'll probably be asking a lot of stupid questions in the future. I'm retired and have plenty of time on my hands. Once, I have a good grip of the rules, if I can get a grip of the rules I hope I will be able to find some PBEM opponents here.

BBfanboy -> RE: Learning Curve (7/28/2021 2:22:29 AM)
Welcome to our collective insanity! You will feel at home here. Don't worry about asking questions - that is why the forum is here. All we ask is that you first try and find the answers in the manual (there is a PDF manual in a subdirectory of the game installation) and if you are comfortable with searching forums using key words, give that a try. The problems that prompted you to restart those games are not well covered in the shorter scenarios. Those scenarios are more about how to use the different buttons, switches and clickable text (hypertext) to give orders to your units and how your units will act given those orders and various random inputs. Many have called this game "Logistics in the Pacific", because managing the distribution of fuel and supply is such an important part of the game. So is proper planning for moving troops and setting up invasions - especially amphibious ones. Then you need to manage air units, aircraft pools, pilot and plane fatigue, air support and base building. As a strategic level game those things are just as important as sending your troops off to do battle. It is a big help if you decide what your objectives will be in six month increments as that will guide your preparation of land units, buying out units using PP and setting up supply hubs, air bases and ports to support your plans. Expect to spend a year at the game before feeling comfortable that you know how to handle most things. Three years and you might feel like a veteran. I have been at it ten years and am still learning things - partly because of changes in the game that I only recently adopted. Most of all - have fun! If it is frustrating you, ask for advice on how to overcome problems. [:)]

btd64 -> RE: Learning Curve (7/28/2021 2:30:06 AM)
Welcome back. Many people will come here and answer all of your questions, but I just want to say that I to jumped into a grand campaign and it took a long time to get a grip on this game. But I did have one advantage. I had a pretty good historical background on the Pacific theater. But the big thing was I read the f##king manual and kept it by my side while playing. Eventually I joined the forum and that helped me even more. I guess I am saying learn the basics. Happy hunting....GP

NigelKentarus -> RE: Learning Curve (7/28/2021 2:47:03 AM)
Awhile back I read somewhere on here refer to the Game as WITP-Accountants Edition. It fits.

RangerJoe -> RE: Learning Curve (7/28/2021 2:47:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: btd64 Welcome back. Many people will come here and answer all of your questions, but I just want to say that I to jumped into a grand campaign and it took a long time to get a grip on this game. But I did have one advantage. I had a pretty good historical background on the Pacific theater. But the big thing was I read the f##king manual and kept it by my side while playing. Eventually I joined the forum and that helped me even more. I guess I am saying learn the basics. Happy hunting....GP Who needs a manual? [&:] Just play![;)] Really though, there are a lot of threads out there to help you. Maybe start here: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2260137

drum_taps -> RE: Learning Curve (7/28/2021 2:49:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BBfanboy Welcome to our collective insanity! You will feel at home here. Don't worry about asking questions - that is why the forum is here. All we ask is that you first try and find the answers in the manual (there is a PDF manual in a subdirectory of the game installation) and if you are comfortable with searching forums using key words, give that a try. The problems that prompted you to restart those games are not well covered in the shorter scenarios. Those scenarios are more about how to use the different buttons, switches and clickable text (hypertext) to give orders to your units and how your units will act given those orders and various random inputs. Many have called this game "Logistics in the Pacific", because managing the distribution of fuel and supply is such an important part of the game. So is proper planning for moving troops and setting up invasions - especially amphibious ones. Then you need to manage air units, aircraft pools, pilot and plane fatigue, air support and base building. As a strategic level game those things are just as important as sending your troops off to do battle. It is a big help if you decide what your objectives will be in six month increments as that will guide your preparation of land units, buying out units using PP and setting up supply hubs, air bases and ports to support your plans. Expect to spend a year at the game before feeling comfortable that you know how to handle most things. Three years and you might feel like a veteran. I have been at it ten years and am still learning things - partly because of changes in the game that I only recently adopted. Most of all - have fun! If it is frustrating you, ask for advice on how to overcome problems. [:)] After reading your post I am tempted to once again throw my lot into the grand campaign again. I still grapple with some of the mechanics, but its mainly because not managing resources correctly. At at least in the 2nd game I did not have supply problems. My biggest problem was going 4 months of game time pretty much letting the east take of itself and only paying attention to the Philippines and Dutch East Indies sporadically. I was more interested in building defenses along the Palmya-Canton Island-Pago Pago - Suva chain of Islands and then building up Port Moresby and Nourmea for later offenses. So hopefully if I pay more attention to what I should have before the next problem I am sure to encounter will be different and as severe.

drum_taps -> RE: Learning Curve (7/28/2021 3:01:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: btd64 Welcome back. Many people will come here and answer all of your questions, but I just want to say that I to jumped into a grand campaign and it took a long time to get a grip on this game. But I did have one advantage. I had a pretty good historical background on the Pacific theater. But the big thing was I read the f##king manual and kept it by my side while playing. Eventually I joined the forum and that helped me even more. I guess I am saying learn the basics. Happy hunting....GP Maybe my own pacific war knowledge will help me. My father fought in the pacific which gave me a lifelong interest in that war. Mainly because my father would speak little of it. I've build up a library over the years, including Samuel Eliot Morrison's 14 volume History Of Naval Operations in WWII. I am also very much into the air war as I served in the Marine Corps as an airframes mech on F-4 Phantoms. The manual was one of the first things I searched for and found in the game folder[:)]. Recently I learned a ton of stuff about ports and air fields I wish I read deeper into earlier.

dr.hal -> RE: Learning Curve (7/28/2021 3:54:30 AM)
If you want to learn the long game (campaign) but also not be too worried about some of the supply concerns you should stick to the Allies. Managing the Japanese economy does take some time and requires a lot of reading of the manual and this forum. You also should get a handle on all the tools that have been developed over the years by some very dedicated players (my hat is off to them for sure). If you play the Allies you don't have to worry about engines and plane development, etc. It's still a challenge and you still have to supply and fuel your war machine, but it's easier to learn the mechanics of the overall campaign level game this way. Once there, the next challenge is taking on a game as Japan.

rustysi -> RE: Learning Curve (7/28/2021 5:53:30 AM)
quote: The manual was one of the first things I searched for and found in the game folder. Well, that's a plus, there have been some here lately that could not even do that without help.[&:] Now, I ask, do you really think you should tackle this game if that's the case?[:-] Oh, I'm a bad boy.[:D] And yes, this game has a 'learning cliff', but its doable. Take if in chunks, and learn/focus on just a few new things each time you restart the game. Then wash/rinse/repeat, and in a numbers of years you'll get there too.[:D] With this game its truly the journey, not the destination.[8D]

Maallon -> RE: Learning Curve (7/28/2021 6:33:25 AM)
I would like to encourage you to not throw in the towel of the games you presume are lost too soon. Honestly running out of supply and/or fuel in Australia or getting in the negatives of your PP account, we probably all have been there at some point in our WITPAE career. But learning how to recover from such situations is equally important as to learn how to avoid them, especially running out of fuel or supply can and will happen to you to some extend in your future games. This doesn't even have to be because you just simply forgot to ship the stuff in, sometimes your convoys can just get sunk by some enemy TFs roaming around or you simply lost the air or sea superiority in the region thus making running convoys very risky in general. If you play PBEM you cannot request a redo from your opponent in such situations. Also I think the games you tend to struggle more are more memorable and fun than the games where everything just went perfect. [:)] Additionally to RangerJoe's link I would like to add the following: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2576157

RangerJoe -> RE: Learning Curve (7/28/2021 10:55:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Maallon I would like to encourage you to not throw in the towel of the games you presume are lost too soon. Honestly running out of supply and/or fuel in Australia or getting in the negatives of your PP account, we probably all have been there at some point in our WITPAE career. But learning how to recover from such situations is equally important as to learn how to avoid them, especially running out of fuel or supply can and will happen to you to some extend in your future games. This doesn't even have to be because you just simply forgot to ship the stuff in, sometimes your convoys can just get sunk by some enemy TFs roaming around or you simply lost the air or sea superiority in the region thus making running convoys very risky in general. If you play PBEM you cannot request a redo from your opponent in such situations. Also I think the games you tend to struggle more are more memorable and fun than the games where everything just went perfect. [:)] Additionally to RangerJoe's link I would like to add the following: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2576157 I agree in not giving up. Greyjoy did not even though he was pushed back all over the map- almost losing all of India. Then the situation suddenly changed for some strange reason when he invaded Hokkaido. Oddly enough, the Japanese player suddenly started returning forces to the Home islands.

btd64 -> RE: Learning Curve (7/28/2021 12:17:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: drum_taps quote: ORIGINAL: btd64 Welcome back. Many people will come here and answer all of your questions, but I just want to say that I to jumped into a grand campaign and it took a long time to get a grip on this game. But I did have one advantage. I had a pretty good historical background on the Pacific theater. But the big thing was I read the f##king manual and kept it by my side while playing. Eventually I joined the forum and that helped me even more. I guess I am saying learn the basics. Happy hunting....GP Maybe my own pacific war knowledge will help me. My father fought in the pacific which gave me a lifelong interest in that war. Mainly because my father would speak little of it. I've build up a library over the years, including Samuel Eliot Morrison's 14 volume History Of Naval Operations in WWII. I am also very much into the air war as I served in the Marine Corps as an airframes mech on F-4 Phantoms. The manual was one of the first things I searched for and found in the game folder[:)]. Recently I learned a ton of stuff about ports and air fields I wish I read deeper into earlier. One other thing, take notes. I keep a dated notebook next to me as I play. It has things to do, as well as planning info. For example; 12/08/41. Set sub patrols. Move xxxxx reg to Rangoon. Etc, etc... It's very helpful....GP

BBfanboy -> RE: Learning Curve (7/28/2021 12:18:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: drum_taps After reading your post I am tempted to once again throw my lot into the grand campaign again. I still grapple with some of the mechanics, but its mainly because not managing resources correctly. At at least in the 2nd game I did not have supply problems. My biggest problem was going 4 months of game time pretty much letting the east take of itself and only paying attention to the Philippines and Dutch East Indies sporadically. I was more interested in building defenses along the Palmya-Canton Island-Pago Pago - Suva chain of Islands and then building up Port Moresby and Nourmea for later offenses. So hopefully if I pay more attention to what I should have before the next problem I am sure to encounter will be different and as severe. In my first attempts at the Grand Campaign I tried to keep it as purely a naval game because that was my interest. I soon found that I could not accomplish what I wanted to because I needed to develop bases for decent ports and airfields for decent search. And to develop bases I needed to bring supplies and fuel. And to take bases in areas the enemy controlled I needed to prepare LCUs and assemble invasion TFs and supporting vessels (like minesweepers and bombardment ships). And I needed tenders to reload ammo and fix minor damage. Eventually I came to realize that it is all inter-connected across the map. If you want to maximize what your forces can do you have to make plans and strategies across the map and then work on developing bases to support those plans. Against the AI you can get away with a "Quiet China" strategy by letting the AI take the bases it wants in the South and pull your Chinese troops back into the rugged north. Other areas of the map require you to build defences and prepare offensives. And grinding down enemy strength over years of game play is a necessity too.

HansBolter -> RE: Learning Curve (7/28/2021 12:31:30 PM)
quote: Against the AI you can get away with a "Quiet China" strategy by letting the AI take the bases it wants in the South and pull your Chinese troops back into the rugged north. Other areas of the map require you to build defences and prepare offensives. Up until my current game I have always played very aggressively against the AI in China. The sad truth is that the AI is inept at large scale land warfare, after all the game is centered the use of Bases. In most of my games, even Ironman games, I have liberated all of China by the end of '42. In my current game I decided to try playing as if I had a thinking opponent. I evacuated the entire Chinese Army to the heavy terrain and waited for the AI to come at me. Sadly, the AI sat on its butt and did absolutely nothing. It didn't even occupy many of the bases I had abandoned. After sitting on my haunches taking replacements for nine months and incurring almost no losses, my overly beefed up Chinese Army went on the offensive. The results are even more lopsided now that the Chinese Army was allowed to build up. I have come to the conclusion that someone, maybe it will have to be me, needs to give some real attention to China in creating an Ironman scenario. The shortcoming of most of the Ironman scenarios is that they focus on overpowering the IJ Navy and Air force, but fail to do anything to make China more challenging.

btd64 -> RE: Learning Curve (7/28/2021 12:37:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe quote: ORIGINAL: Maallon I would like to encourage you to not throw in the towel of the games you presume are lost too soon. Honestly running out of supply and/or fuel in Australia or getting in the negatives of your PP account, we probably all have been there at some point in our WITPAE career. But learning how to recover from such situations is equally important as to learn how to avoid them, especially running out of fuel or supply can and will happen to you to some extend in your future games. This doesn't even have to be because you just simply forgot to ship the stuff in, sometimes your convoys can just get sunk by some enemy TFs roaming around or you simply lost the air or sea superiority in the region thus making running convoys very risky in general. If you play PBEM you cannot request a redo from your opponent in such situations. Also I think the games you tend to struggle more are more memorable and fun than the games where everything just went perfect. [:)] Additionally to RangerJoe's link I would like to add the following: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2576157 I agree in not giving up. Greyjoy did not even though he was pushed back all over the map- almost losing all of India. Then the situation suddenly changed for some strange reason when he invaded Hokkaido. Oddly enough, the Japanese player suddenly started returning forces to the Home islands. Never give up! I must have restarted 12 or more times before I got passed April 1942. The logistics is what I had to learn....GP

drum_taps -> RE: Learning Curve (7/28/2021 3:40:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: btd64 One other thing, take notes. I keep a dated notebook next to me as I play. It has things to do, as well as planning info. For example; 12/08/41. Set sub patrols. Move xxxxx reg to Rangoon. Etc, etc... It's very helpful....GP Great idea. I just went and bought a couple spiral notebooks from the supermarket:-)

btd64 -> RE: Learning Curve (7/28/2021 3:51:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: drum_taps quote: ORIGINAL: btd64 One other thing, take notes. I keep a dated notebook next to me as I play. It has things to do, as well as planning info. For example; 12/08/41. Set sub patrols. Move xxxxx reg to Rangoon. Etc, etc... It's very helpful....GP Great idea. I just went and bought a couple spiral notebooks from the supermarket:-) Glad you liked the idea....GP

drum_taps -> RE: Learning Curve (7/28/2021 4:53:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: btd64 quote: ORIGINAL: drum_taps quote: ORIGINAL: btd64 One other thing, take notes. I keep a dated notebook next to me as I play. It has things to do, as well as planning info. For example; 12/08/41. Set sub patrols. Move xxxxx reg to Rangoon. Etc, etc... It's very helpful....GP Great idea. I just went and bought a couple spiral notebooks from the supermarket:-) Glad you liked the idea....GP Actually you have helped me twice today. I just did a search on Political Points to try to salvage that game I've spend 4 months on. A post showed up by you from 2017 mentioning ship withdrawal. I know it's in the manual, but I missed it. It is July 4th 1942 and I have not withdrawn one ship. Once I can get those off the board (most of those overdue ships are out at sea) I may be able to get out of the PP hole.

RangerJoe -> RE: Learning Curve (7/28/2021 5:00:58 PM)
You will get out of that hole but also look at your air units as well. On the "Intelligence" screen, there are things to look at such as air unit withdrawls and under the ships, it has the ships withdrawls. Look and see where the safest place to send them away. If they have too much damage, they can't withdraw.

drum_taps -> RE: Learning Curve (7/28/2021 5:12:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe You will get out of that hole but also look at your air units as well. On the "Intelligence" screen, there are things to look at such as air unit withdrawls and under the ships, it has the ships withdrawls. Look and see where the safest place to send them away. If they have too much damage, they can't withdraw. The Air Units withdrawal part I did know about, probably because the air war interests me the most. I did think at first that the air withdrawal part was my whole PP problem as I hard time figuring out how to withdraw one unit as there was one stray airplane from the squadron left behind at another base. That piece of squadron never showed up red on the land based list. I am now thinking I better check for overdue land units too. I feel more like an account than a fantasy admiral/general[:)]

RangerJoe -> RE: Learning Curve (7/28/2021 5:15:45 PM)
Land units automatically disappear. "Scotty" beams them elsewhere.

drum_taps -> RE: Learning Curve (7/28/2021 5:27:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe Land units automatically disappear. "Scotty" beams them elsewhere. That's right come to think of it. I just lost a bunch of aviation support units I had at island airbases like Canton Island to withdrawals.

RangerJoe -> RE: Learning Curve (7/28/2021 5:32:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: drum_taps quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe Land units automatically disappear. "Scotty" beams them elsewhere. That's right come to think of it. I just lost a bunch of aviation support units I had at island airbases like Canton Island to withdrawals. Yes, those were actually civilians and the Navy thought better of using them.

btd64 -> RE: Learning Curve (7/28/2021 5:57:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: drum_taps quote: ORIGINAL: btd64 quote: ORIGINAL: drum_taps quote: ORIGINAL: btd64 One other thing, take notes. I keep a dated notebook next to me as I play. It has things to do, as well as planning info. For example; 12/08/41. Set sub patrols. Move xxxxx reg to Rangoon. Etc, etc... It's very helpful....GP Great idea. I just went and bought a couple spiral notebooks from the supermarket:-) Glad you liked the idea....GP Actually you have helped me twice today. I just did a search on Political Points to try to salvage that game I've spend 4 months on. A post showed up by you from 2017 mentioning ship withdrawal. I know it's in the manual, but I missed it. It is July 4th 1942 and I have not withdrawn one ship. Once I can get those off the board (most of those overdue ships are out at sea) I may be able to get out of the PP hole. How far in the pp hole are you?....GP

drum_taps -> RE: Learning Curve (7/28/2021 6:07:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: btd64 How far in the pp hole are you?....GP -207 PP

RangerJoe -> RE: Learning Curve (7/28/2021 6:24:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: drum_taps quote: ORIGINAL: btd64 How far in the pp hole are you?....GP -207 PP That actually is not that much. But you need to move those ships as fast as is possible to the closest exit port.

rustysi -> RE: Learning Curve (7/28/2021 9:04:24 PM)
quote: Also I think the games you tend to struggle more are more memorable and fun than the games where everything just went perfect. And what game(s) might those be...[:D] Seriously, I've never had one.[:'(]

btd64 -> RE: Learning Curve (7/28/2021 10:50:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe quote: ORIGINAL: drum_taps quote: ORIGINAL: btd64 How far in the pp hole are you?....GP -207 PP That actually is not that much. But you need to move those ships as fast as is possible to the closest exit port. Check air units to....GP

RangerJoe -> RE: Learning Curve (7/28/2021 11:02:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: btd64 quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe quote: ORIGINAL: drum_taps quote: ORIGINAL: btd64 How far in the pp hole are you?....GP -207 PP That actually is not that much. But you need to move those ships as fast as is possible to the closest exit port. Check air units to....GP He has said that he does: quote: The Air Units withdrawal part I did know about, probably because the air war interests me the most. . . .

HansBolter -> RE: Learning Curve (7/28/2021 11:26:55 PM)
Ships are the real buggers when it comes to making withdrawals on time. It often takes far longer to get them to a withdrawal port than it does for air squadrons to get a base that works. It pays to look far ahead with regard to ship withdrawals. You don't want to discover 4 days before a withdrawal is due that the ship in question is in a cargo TF in the middle of the ocean. IIRC the first ship withdrawal is the Dominion Monarch which starts in Singapore. It should have left Singapore on turn one. I typically try to look 2-3 months ahead on ship withdrawals so all can be identified, located and a route to a withdrawal port planned.

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