Something is wrong with city forts (Full Version)

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pompack -> Something is wrong with city forts (8/3/2021 3:12:23 AM)


Defending in north Moscow. 40k troops, level 32 fort, all units both inside and outside the fort are 80%+ supply, 100%+ ammo and fuel with a full depot in the hex. 1298 German vs 2279 Soviet raw combat value, no air on either side. 1114 German to 178 Soviet resolved combat value with 6.2:1 resolved ratio.

WHY would the Soviets drop from 1114 to 178 in the combat resolution?

in the same turn with similar forces, in west Moscow with similar supply status 1708 to 2632 raw combat value reduced to 1490 to 187 final combat value.

And many turns previously the same thing happened at Sevastopol. I would have done better with far fewer troops in I had not used the fort capability and just left a couple of units on top.



jubjub -> RE: Something is wrong with city forts (8/3/2021 4:08:56 AM)

Do you have a screenshot of the combat with the details expanded?



freeboy -> RE: Something is wrong with city forts (8/3/2021 1:04:12 PM)

There are several factors. one is moral of the combat commander
we prob should dig into the formula



Jajusha -> RE: Something is wrong with city forts (8/3/2021 1:16:47 PM)

Unit moral and TOE?
Commanders? Units linked to STAVKA? Overloaded HQ?
Year?

It's happened to me too mind you, even had a screenshot saved because of my failed defense of Odessa with similar ratios but the truth is if you look in detail to most of your defenses in 41 and 42, this happens alot. Defenses of 62 turning 2 aren't uncommon, outside or inside city forts. The CV ratios displayed for the soviet side are your best estimate, i usually divide it by 2 during 41 and 42 now.

Your infantry TOE till Dec 41 is using outdated infantry squads. Even after that only a portion is updated to the new squads. You have the artilery firing penalty due to lack of ammo. Your National moral lowers from 50 to 45. You'll have manpower problems.



pompack -> RE: Something is wrong with city forts (8/3/2021 2:50:31 PM)

morale was 47-50 and the units were fully linked to army then front then STAVKA with no overloads. Commanders were all the best that you can get for summer 42.



jubjub -> RE: Something is wrong with city forts (8/3/2021 3:33:44 PM)

The explanation that makes the most sense to me is that you only had 40,000 troops defending against over 100,000. You will easily have half of your elements killed, damaged, or disabled in this fight. This automatically halves the initial CV. On top of this, you probably lost a fort level, which is another 11% reduction. So there's already a 55% reduction in CV that we can easily account for.


Let's say 30,000 German troops are taken out in combat. You now have 70,000 vs 20,000. The combat engine gives bonuses for outnumbering your opponent, and at 3:1, it's probably a pretty significant factor here. Another possible element is air support. There are unseen bonuses for flying ground support, so if the VVS CAS didn't fly this battle while the Luftwaffe's did, that might have influenced the result.


I'm sure there's other explanations, but the fact is 3-4 infantry divisions aren't enough to stop a huge assault like that. In this case, the initial and displayed CV drastically overestimates the combat ability of what's in the hex. Again, if you can show the combat result, that would help show what happened with more detail and accuracy.




821Bobo -> RE: Something is wrong with city forts (8/3/2021 6:55:47 PM)

Yes 40k troops is too few and even not worth spending APs on such small garrison. I have over 100k in Odessa and 11th Army have been wrecked in futile attempts to take the city. What also matters is if the city is isolated and in what shape are the troops.



squatter -> RE: Something is wrong with city forts (8/3/2021 9:16:21 PM)

Anecdotal evidence from the few games I've played is that city forts have always fallen on the first attack.



Rosencrantus -> RE: Something is wrong with city forts (8/3/2021 11:12:16 PM)

A city fort with 7+ good units in a 3+ fort is practically not worth assaulting for both sides unless you have it isolated. You just needed more good units in there.

Edit: I am also quite sure that city forts just allow you to stack more units into the hex; it does not change any of the units CV value or anything. It is just meant to be a tool to stack more units.



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