Soviet Guard Armor: Too soon, too many (Full Version)

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xhoel -> Soviet Guard Armor: Too soon, too many (8/21/2021 3:33:32 PM)

I have been looking into the strength and composition of Soviet armored forces in 1942 and have found some interesting stuff that might affect the game and balance. For one, I have already proposed to the devs to increase the number of tanks in the Soviet 42b Tank Corps TOE, since the current numbers do not seem to match historical ones (in game TOE is missing 33 tanks). I have also proposed the introduction of a new TOE for Mechanized Corps to better reflect the structure of the tank heavy 1st, 2nd and 3rd Mechanized Corps had (3 Mech Brigades + 2 Tank Brigades).

On the other hand I have been reading AARs in the forums and I noticed something interesting in the AAR between M60A3TTS and smokindave34: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4990029&mpage=1&key=

It is an outstanding AAR, that I would recommend everyone read as you can learn a lot while also enjoying the whole action and management that comes with the game. The AAR is only being used as an ilustration, I am not passing any judgment on the players, I thoroughly enjoyed the game.

What I noticed, is how strong and big the Soviet armor force is. By T55 (5th July 1942) the Soviets are fielding 16 Guards Tank Corps and 5 regular Tank Corps for a total of 21 TC. Keep the guard numbers in mind as they are important.

Having 21 Tank Corps by this time is quite realistic if we compare it to history: On the 31st of March 1942, the Soviets formed the first 4 Tank Corps (1st to 4th TC). In the span of April-May, 15 more were formed (5th to 15th and 21st to 24th TC). In June, 4 Tank Corps were formed (16th, 17th, 18th and 27th) and in mid-July another 3 (25th, 26th and 28th).

That brings the number of Soviet Tank Corps at the start of August to 26 but by the 5th of July (comparing it to the game) only 23 TC would have been build and a few of them would not have been combat ready yet. So we see similar numbers (21 vs 23) and no big problems.

Which brings us to the issue on hand: The Soviets are creating Guard Tank Corps too early and too easily. Don’t get me wrong, I think that it is appropriate that a good Soviet player is rewarded for managing his tank forces properly and the guards title does just that: Guard status not only gives the Corps a better TOE but also boosts their national morale by 10 points, which is a lot, so the arrival of these units in large enough numbers can have quite an effect on the battles that take place in the east.

Why do I say that? Because by July 1942, out of the 21 Tank Corps fielded, 16 of them have made guards (76%). To compare this to history: The Soviets never fielded more than 12 Guard Tank Corps and the first 3 Guard Tank Corps only received the Guards designation in mid-December 1942, for their performance at Stalingrad (the 1st Guard Tank Corps received the designation on 8th December 1942). Another 2 units would receive the Guards designation in January-February 1943, 2 would receive it in July 1943, 3 would receive it in September-October 1943 and the last 2 would receive it in 1944.

As you can clearly tell, the build-up of the guards formation was slow and wasn’t achieved immediately and especially not this early since the bulk of the guard formations received this designation in 1943. This reflects the fact that the Soviet Army was still evolving and learning even as far as 1944 and that for the Soviet armored forces to evolve, the price had to be paid in blood, sweat and time.

I think the following changes need to be made, to better reflect the historical realities that I talked about above:

1) Less Tank Brigades should make Guards in general.
2) Guard Tank Corps should not become available before September 1942. This is 3 months earlier than historically but I think it is a fair start to the Guards forces as they can be sent to the rear to train up and recover morale and be ready for the battles in November.
3) Guard Tank Corps numbers should be limited to the 12 that were historically fielded.
4) At the same time, the availability of the Guard Tank Corps should be staggered and capped depending on the year. Using the historical records the caps would be: 3 in 1942, 7 in 1943 and 2 in 1944. This still would mean that the Soviets will probably get a bunch of Tank Corps in January 1943 instead of getting them spread out during the year but I think it is a trade-off that we can make.
5) There should be a relative limit to the number of Guard Tank Corps that the Soviets can field. So if you have 12 Tank Corps, you cannot have 12 Guards Tank Corps even though that would be the maximum amount that you could theoretically have.

I think these changes, would see the Soviet armored forces go through a more slow and gradual evolution than is currently the case while at the same time not taking too much from their strength as their TOEs are beefed up. This might allow for a more fluent 1942.

Feel free to add your thoughts!



AlbertN -> RE: Soviet Guard Armor: Too soon, too many (8/21/2021 4:29:25 PM)

I noticed that too - excess of Guard Units in general by '42.

But to me presently it's 'excess' of everything for Soviets.
The amount of planes they can lose, the amount of punishment / losses they can take (within the scope of the game), the operational capability paired with the needed mobility (Since early on Soviets pratically always move administratively) and CPP (Already discussed elsewhere).
Large amount of Admin Points - at times coming in batches for Purpose A but in truth usable for anything - and possibility to tailor their own army as needed (The 'disband this to gain trucks, do the same footed to spare trucks' or 'let's build only these type of ART because it does not cross over INF division allocations' or 'Because this is better due to superior and / or more guns'.).

All of that pours in with an extreme scream of Soviet wet fantasy with historical producion (I assume, I'm not here to crunch numbers), freedom of player skill to do as one pleases - no nation really would just march backward and backward without fighting - and while it is true Germans can do the same later on... the game curve snowballs, so we have Soviets on steroids in '42 already.

To limit the amount of Guard Units is certainly a good step - but I feel from my perspective, one among the many needed.
I feel another problem is how Soviets stall potentially wrong attacks early, at some distance and suffering pratically no losses.





GibsonPete -> RE: Soviet Guard Armor: Too soon, too many (8/21/2021 4:31:00 PM)

I agree. The Axis has no method of creating additional elite units. Allowing the Soviets that sort of flexibility is disturbing. At the same time, I understand it and actually could see a desire to allow it. I suppose, it comes down to your style of game play.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Soviet Guard Armor: Too soon, too many (8/21/2021 4:51:32 PM)

I brought this up in WITE1. In WITE2 with more Soviets attacking than just defending you have a beefed up Soviet in 42. The 5 legged chair that needs one of the legs kicked out from it is the Soviets having 2 assault HQ's from the beginning. Here in lies the first issue of getting to those Guard Tank Corps and guard Infantry lower.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Soviet Guard Armor: Too soon, too many (8/21/2021 4:54:41 PM)

2nd you have the Soviets can fine tune leadership to a perfect diamond. Give them free AP and BAM perfect chain of command in 41 coupled with an Assualt HQ is pretty damn deadly.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Soviet Guard Armor: Too soon, too many (8/21/2021 4:55:16 PM)

But I will digress there



xhoel -> RE: Soviet Guard Armor: Too soon, too many (8/21/2021 5:08:53 PM)

I think the Soviets get an ungodly amount of APs and manpower dumped at their feet, which means they can fine tune a lot their army and leadership as they see fit without having an incentive to save APs for important tasks. I think this kind of fine tuning should cost a lot more and also be available a lot later in the war but I believe the same goes for the Axis.

I think the changes to the way ranks work is not the right way to go. The fact that I can promote Generalmajors that were comanding regiments at the start of Barbarossa without paying an additional AP cost or risking a loss of skills makes this feature easy to abuse. But that is a discussion for another time.



AlbertN -> RE: Soviet Guard Armor: Too soon, too many (8/21/2021 5:28:45 PM)

So another perceived issue is AP for Soviets. That can be reworked at gradual increments without spikes even?

I am not sure how many depots Soviets need when playing defensive - but they too could have little to few AP spare for leader changes across '41 or so. And still few AP so that they actually must make choices instead of swimming into AP?
To add Disband Cost in terms of AP for Soviets can help as well to mitigate the quickness of the min-maxing of their forces.



jubjub -> RE: Soviet Guard Armor: Too soon, too many (8/21/2021 7:03:57 PM)

All excellent ideas. The guard threshold is way too low in general imo, and the number of wins should be increased to at least 12, probably more. Would love to see how guard creation compares historically in relation to rifle divisions/corps, calvary, etc. as well.




AlbertN -> RE: Soviet Guard Armor: Too soon, too many (8/21/2021 10:28:46 PM)

I may be wrong but I think Events can be used too to dilute Guard Promotions and / or alter the % Max they can have.

So in Xhoel's example of 'many Guard Tank Corps' promoted in Jan'43, I believe with Events there can be a dilution over time of that.



56ajax -> RE: Soviet Guard Armor: Too soon, too many (8/22/2021 3:32:55 AM)

In my game against the Axis AI on T 72 (Nov 1942) I dont have any Guards Tank Corps; thats because I havent bothered to build any I suppose - the AI is in enough trouble as it is.

I have 17 Guards Tank Brigades, 19 Guards Rifle Corps, and 35 Guards Divs.

Other than using airborne brigades, I have made no attempt to turn any unit into Guards Status.

fyi



xhoel -> RE: Soviet Guard Armor: Too soon, too many (8/22/2021 7:28:26 AM)

@AlbertN: I dont think so. I think Guard % are capped by year. Thats why you will see a lot of promotions in the first turn of January of a year. Like I said in the post, I dont have a problem with the Soviets getting most of their Guard Tank Corps at the start of the year since it is an improvement over the current system.

@56ajax: With 17 Guard Tank Brigades you could form 8 Guard Tank Corps right now. That number was only reached in September 1943 historically. So you are basically almost a year yearly. Not that I am blaming you or anyone who would use the feature. It simply seems to be an oversight that needs to be changed as it gives one side an unfair advantage.



Dreamslayer -> RE: Soviet Guard Armor: Too soon, too many (8/22/2021 11:52:29 AM)

Guard Tank Corps was promoted from already existing Tank Corps. There was nothing like "lets build a few more Guard Tank Corps from separate Guard Tank Brigades". Normally Soviet Tank Corps its a 3 Tank Brigades, 1 Moto-Rifle Brigade and other sub-units.
http://tankfront.ru/ussr/tk.html



AlbertN -> RE: Soviet Guard Armor: Too soon, too many (8/22/2021 12:23:41 PM)

My deduction is that there are Events that alter Game Data such as the German National Morale and German Manpower factors / multipliers.

Thus I assume via Events other game datas can be adjusted as well such as Max# of Guard Units or Max% of Guard Units and the like.



Great_Ajax -> RE: Soviet Guard Armor: Too soon, too many (8/22/2021 1:33:11 PM)

Very nice site and I just bookmarked it for future reference.

The early Mar/Apr 42 Tank Corps organizations list a single Reconnaissance Company. Do you know the composition of that company?

Trey


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer

Guard Tank Corps was promoted from already existing Tank Corps. There was nothing like "lets build a few more Guard Tank Corps from separate Guard Tank Brigades". Normally Soviet Tank Corps its a 3 Tank Brigades, 1 Moto-Rifle Brigade and other sub-units.
http://tankfront.ru/ussr/tk.html




xhoel -> RE: Soviet Guard Armor: Too soon, too many (8/22/2021 2:11:53 PM)

@Dreamslayer: That is true, but i think with the changes i proposed, we would still get good results. And yes, the 3 Tank + 1 Moto-Rifle Brigade is the organization that I was referencing too.

@AlbertN: NM changes are set in the data for the scenario. You can change that in the editor. I think for guard units the percentages are per year and cannot be adjusted per month.

@Great_Ajax: That is the site that I linked when we discussed Mechanized and Tank Corps organization. They have a lot of useful info. Worth the bookmark for sure.




M60A3TTS -> RE: Soviet Guard Armor: Too soon, too many (8/22/2021 2:21:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel

I think the Soviets get an ungodly amount of APs and manpower dumped at their feet, which means they can fine tune a lot their army and leadership as they see fit without having an incentive to save APs for important tasks. I think this kind of fine tuning should cost a lot more and also be available a lot later in the war but I believe the same goes for the Axis.

I think the changes to the way ranks work is not the right way to go. The fact that I can promote Generalmajors that were comanding regiments at the start of Barbarossa without paying an additional AP cost or risking a loss of skills makes this feature easy to abuse. But that is a discussion for another time.



I do agree the AP dumps the Soviets get are excessive in light of the lower costs of doing business compared to WiTE1.

For the long campaign, the first two dumps of 200 on turn 27 and 250 on turn 44 could be retained with the remaining 4 events of a combined 1,050 dropped.



xhoel -> RE: Soviet Guard Armor: Too soon, too many (8/22/2021 2:34:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS


I do agree the AP dumps the Soviets get are excessive in light of the lower costs of doing business compared to WiTE1.

For the long campaign, the first two dumps of 200 on turn 27 and 250 on turn 44 could be retained with the remaining 4 events of a combined 1,050 dropped.


Good to see an experienced Soviet player as yourself chip in on the convo M60, appreciate the feedback!

1.050? I didnt even know they get that many, Jesus Chris. I think thats a fair proposal, dont want to go too hard on the other direction and not allow the Soviets some flexibility either.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Soviet Guard Armor: Too soon, too many (8/22/2021 2:57:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS


I do agree the AP dumps the Soviets get are excessive in light of the lower costs of doing business compared to WiTE1.

For the long campaign, the first two dumps of 200 on turn 27 and 250 on turn 44 could be retained with the remaining 4 events of a combined 1,050 dropped.


Good to see an experienced Soviet player as yourself chip in on the convo M60, appreciate the feedback!

1.050? I didnt even know they get that many, Jesus Chris. I think thats a fair proposal, dont want to go too hard on the other direction and not allow the Soviets some flexibility either.



Soviet get a total of 1,500 free AP up to June 1943. Please check out chart 40.12 Soviet Administrative Point gains and scripted reinforcements. Plus 1,200,000 men.

As I mentioned in another thread the AP given should not be generic AP. It should be another category for the event that just happened. Thus the Nov 41 event of gifted 200 AP should be labeled, "CAV/Ski AP" and those AP points can ONLY be used to purchase CAV/Ski units. At the moment the Soviets just says, "Merry Xmas" every time they get a dump of AP and ask's Mr. Grisby if he can do it again for them. Then the Soviets look what goodies they can buy or forts they can erect in a hurry if not using the AP for what was supposed to be purchased.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Soviet Guard Armor: Too soon, too many (8/22/2021 3:04:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel

@AlbertN: I dont think so. I think Guard % are capped by year. Thats why you will see a lot of promotions in the first turn of January of a year. Like I said in the post, I dont have a problem with the Soviets getting most of their Guard Tank Corps at the start of the year since it is an improvement over the current system.

@56ajax: With 17 Guard Tank Brigades you could form 8 Guard Tank Corps right now. That number was only reached in September 1943 historically. So you are basically almost a year yearly. Not that I am blaming you or anyone who would use the feature. It simply seems to be an oversight that needs to be changed as it gives one side an unfair advantage.


Guard totals are capped by year. There is currently a game bug(not really a bug but known event in the game) that allows you to go over that cap. How? By converting Airborne brigades into Guard Division. Then rinse repeat. You can then buy the Airborne Brigades again, with those 1,500 points and have a huge Army of Guard Divisions and Corps. I brought this out in M60's game. Thus someone can 100% get over the cap at the moment.

I recommend house ruling it out to be on the safe side.



jubjub -> RE: Soviet Guard Armor: Too soon, too many (8/22/2021 3:41:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS


I do agree the AP dumps the Soviets get are excessive in light of the lower costs of doing business compared to WiTE1.

For the long campaign, the first two dumps of 200 on turn 27 and 250 on turn 44 could be retained with the remaining 4 events of a combined 1,050 dropped.


Good to see an experienced Soviet player as yourself chip in on the convo M60, appreciate the feedback!

1.050? I didnt even know they get that many, Jesus Chris. I think thats a fair proposal, dont want to go too hard on the other direction and not allow the Soviets some flexibility either.



Soviet get a total of 1,500 free AP up to June 1943. Please check out chart 40.12 Soviet Administrative Point gains and scripted reinforcements. Plus 1,200,000 men.

As I mentioned in another thread the AP given should not be generic AP. It should be another category for the event that just happened. Thus the Nov 41 event of gifted 200 AP should be labeled, "CAV/Ski AP" and those AP points can ONLY be used to purchase CAV/Ski units. At the moment the Soviets just says, "Merry Xmas" every time they get a dump of AP and ask's Mr. Grisby if he can do it again for them. Then the Soviets look what goodies they can buy or forts they can erect in a hurry if not using the AP for what was supposed to be purchased.



Also, the cost for replacing Soviet leaders is absurdly low. You can replace a 5 pol rating front commander for 12 AP's. Replacing army leaders is even cheaper. Compare that to the axis situation, where replacing an army commander is usually 20 points base, and corps commanders almost never cost less than 10.



Kursk1943 -> RE: Soviet Guard Armor: Too soon, too many (8/23/2021 6:32:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Great_Ajax

Very nice site and I just bookmarked it for future reference.

The early Mar/Apr 42 Tank Corps organizations list a single Reconnaissance Company. Do you know the composition of that company?

Trey


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer

Guard Tank Corps was promoted from already existing Tank Corps. There was nothing like "lets build a few more Guard Tank Corps from separate Guard Tank Brigades". Normally Soviet Tank Corps its a 3 Tank Brigades, 1 Moto-Rifle Brigade and other sub-units.
http://tankfront.ru/ussr/tk.html




My source is "The Soviet Order of Battle World War II" bei Charles C. Sharp published by George F. Nafziger first edition 1995.
In Volume II School of Battle: the Tank Corps and Tank Brigades January 1942 to 1945 the composition and equipment for the 1st Tank Corps (formed March 1942) lists for the 15th Reconnaissance Company 15 armored cars (not further specified).



xhoel -> RE: Soviet Guard Armor: Too soon, too many (8/23/2021 7:25:42 AM)

@HLYA: Yes the APs the Soviets get seem very high. I dont know if it would be possible to implement something that would force the player to only use the APs for forming Cav/Ski units though. I think M60s proposal of cutting the other 4 events that give plenty of AP is a good one.

I am aware of the Airborne Brigade exploit. In my opinion it shouldnt be possible to build anymore of these Brigades than what you have at the start and what you get as reinforcements. The fact that building them up automatically gives you a Guard Division is nonsense.

@jubjub: True, although honestly I see the same problem with the Axis. You can very easily tailor your army to perfection, which simply wouldnt have been possible.




xhoel -> RE: Soviet Guard Armor: Too soon, too many (8/23/2021 8:02:33 AM)

Looking more into the unit compositions for the Tank and Mechanized Corps I also noticed that the caps that we have in game are a tad bit generous and there is double counting happening.

The Soviets fielded 31 Tank Corps during the war. Of those, 5 only existed for a few months and were converted to Mechanized Corps (8th, 14th, 22nd, 27th, 28th TC), 1 was destroyed and never rebuild (21st TC) and 1 was organized as a Mechanized Corps but called a tank Corps (13th TC).

If you remove the TC that reorganized as MC you are left with 25 TC for the war. I think that should be the cap for 1943 and later, while for 1942 it should be 22, since 3 Tank Corps were formed later in 1943. Out of these units, 12 made Guards which translates to 48%.

Tank Corps that made Guards by year:
1942 - 3
1943 - 7
1944 - 2

For the Mechanized Corps: 10 MCs were created, 5 from converted TC (all in September 1942) mentioned above and 5 freshly raised (1 in 1942, 3 in 1943 and 1 in 1944). In addition to that, if we count the 13th TC as a Mechanized Corps due to its build, that would bring the total of MCs to 11.

A total of 9 Guards MC were raised: 6 from existing MCs converted to Guards (13th Tank Corps/MC converted to 4th Guards MC), while 3 Guard MCs (2 in 1942 and 1 in 1943) were raised from other formations like Motorized Rifle Divisions. This brings the total of Mechanized Corps to 14, instead of the 16 that the game allows for the war.

For 1942 the cap on MC should be 9, for 1943 should be 13 and for 1944 and the rest of the war it should be 14. 6 of the existing MCs converted to guards which translates to 54%.

So a lowering of the caps would also help keep in line with history.



Nikel -> RE: Soviet Guard Armor: Too soon, too many (8/23/2021 9:54:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Great_Ajax

Very nice site and I just bookmarked it for future reference.

The early Mar/Apr 42 Tank Corps organizations list a single Reconnaissance Company. Do you know the composition of that company?

Trey


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer

Guard Tank Corps was promoted from already existing Tank Corps. There was nothing like "lets build a few more Guard Tank Corps from separate Guard Tank Brigades". Normally Soviet Tank Corps its a 3 Tank Brigades, 1 Moto-Rifle Brigade and other sub-units.
http://tankfront.ru/ussr/tk.html




In Zaloga's, Companion to the Red Army.

The Reconnaissance Company depends of the Motorized Rifle Brigade of the TK in April 1942 (TO 10/370-380), and lists:

Personnel 148.

Pistols 33.

Submachine guns 44.

Rifles ?

Armored cars 7.

Motorcycles 10.

Trucks 10. These are armored, not like the rest present in the MRB.











Kursk1943 -> RE: Soviet Guard Armor: Too soon, too many (8/23/2021 3:44:10 PM)

I'm not sure if Great_Ajax referred to the independent reconnaissance company directly attached to Corps HQ.
Yours seems to be an integral element of the motorized rifle brigade.
My source states that the independent reconnaissance companies were quickly replaced by motorcycle battalions.



Great_Ajax -> RE: Soviet Guard Armor: Too soon, too many (8/23/2021 4:19:46 PM)

I'm using Sharp for my primary reference and he refers to an Independent Reconnaissance Company assigned directly to the corps hq. I have all of organization data I need for the recon company in the Motorized Brigade. I believe the Jul 42 OB version will transition from the recon company to the motorcycle battalion.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kursk1943

I'm not sure if Great_Ajax referred to the independent reconnaissance company directly attached to Corps HQ.
Yours seems to be an integral element of the motorized rifle brigade.
My source states that the independent reconnaissance companies were quickly replaced by motorcycle battalions.




Great_Ajax -> RE: Soviet Guard Armor: Too soon, too many (8/23/2021 4:22:50 PM)

A 10% allowance for going over historical numbers were built into the caps. There were some tank corps that never finalized formation that are also counted.




quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel

Looking more into the unit compositions for the Tank and Mechanized Corps I also noticed that the caps that we have in game are a tad bit generous and there is double counting happening.

The Soviets fielded 31 Tank Corps during the war. Of those, 5 only existed for a few months and were converted to Mechanized Corps (8th, 14th, 22nd, 27th, 28th TC), 1 was destroyed and never rebuild (21st TC) and 1 was organized as a Mechanized Corps but called a tank Corps (13th TC).

If you remove the TC that reorganized as MC you are left with 25 TC for the war. I think that should be the cap for 1943 and later, while for 1942 it should be 22, since 3 Tank Corps were formed later in 1943. Out of these units, 12 made Guards which translates to 48%.

Tank Corps that made Guards by year:
1942 - 3
1943 - 7
1944 - 2

For the Mechanized Corps: 10 MCs were created, 5 from converted TC (all in September 1942) mentioned above and 5 freshly raised (1 in 1942, 3 in 1943 and 1 in 1944). In addition to that, if we count the 13th TC as a Mechanized Corps due to its build, that would bring the total of MCs to 11.

A total of 9 Guards MC were raised: 6 from existing MCs converted to Guards (13th Tank Corps/MC converted to 4th Guards MC), while 3 Guard MCs (2 in 1942 and 1 in 1943) were raised from other formations like Motorized Rifle Divisions. This brings the total of Mechanized Corps to 14, instead of the 16 that the game allows for the war.

For 1942 the cap on MC should be 9, for 1943 should be 13 and for 1944 and the rest of the war it should be 14. 6 of the existing MCs converted to guards which translates to 54%.

So a lowering of the caps would also help keep in line with history.




Nikel -> RE: Soviet Guard Armor: Too soon, too many (8/23/2021 4:45:38 PM)

Kursk1943, Great_Ajax.

I was assuming that there was not such an independent reconnaissance unit in march-april, for example Glantz:

"Beginning in March 1942, he (Fedorenko) organized tank and later mechanized corps that were actually equivalent in capability to German divisions. The first four tank corps consisted of two tank brigades, one truck-mounted rifle brigade, and very little else, for a total strength of 5,603 men and 100 tanks (20 KVs, 40 T-34s, and 40 T-60s). Almost immediately, however, Fedorenko decided to add a third tank brigade plus various combat support elements necessary for sustained operations. By July 1942, a typical tank corps included three tank brigades of 53 tanks each (32 medium and 21 light); one motorized rifle brigade; a motorcycle reconnaissance battalion; battalions of mortars, antiaircraft guns, and multiple-rocket launchers (“guards-mortars”); a combat engineer (sapper) company; and somewhat later a transportation company with two mobile repair teams. The total authorized strength of this organization grew to 7,800 men, 98 T-34 medium tanks, and 70 light tanks."

Zaloga states the same, no reconnaissance unit, except the one inside the MRB.





Kursk1943 -> RE: Soviet Guard Armor: Too soon, too many (8/23/2021 5:03:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikel

Kursk1943, Great_Ajax.

I was assuming that there was not such an independent reconnaissance unit in march-april, for example Glantz:

"Beginning in March 1942, he (Fedorenko) organized tank and later mechanized corps that were actually equivalent in capability to German divisions. The first four tank corps consisted of two tank brigades, one truck-mounted rifle brigade, and very little else, for a total strength of 5,603 men and 100 tanks (20 KVs, 40 T-34s, and 40 T-60s). Almost immediately, however, Fedorenko decided to add a third tank brigade plus various combat support elements necessary for sustained operations. By July 1942, a typical tank corps included three tank brigades of 53 tanks each (32 medium and 21 light); one motorized rifle brigade; a motorcycle reconnaissance battalion; battalions of mortars, antiaircraft guns, and multiple-rocket launchers (“guards-mortars”); a combat engineer (sapper) company; and somewhat later a transportation company with two mobile repair teams. The total authorized strength of this organization grew to 7,800 men, 98 T-34 medium tanks, and 70 light tanks."

Zaloga states the same, no reconnaissance unit, except the one inside the MRB.




That doesn't contradict Sharp's data for 1st Tank Corps (15th independent Reconnaisance Company). That's an example for ""very little else".



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