RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (Full Version)

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metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (9/25/2021 3:26:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jubjub
Stukas are not nearly as efficient bombing airbases and are very useful in GS/GA, so don't use them to bomb airfields. They should be set to rest or to bomb tank/mech divisions on day 2 or later.

I've run further tests with simply one AD for each Stuka Group, in order to bomb Soviet airfields (unescorted) and see if it was consistant with previous ones.

This time I've changed their payload to 1 x 250 kg + 4 x 50 kg instead of default 500 kg + fuel tanks and also bombed 7 different targets (2 airfields were constantly cleaned of Soviet aircraft, so I guess it's possible to do a little bit more damage than that).

This is the targeted Airfields (I didn't rebase them, so I had little choice):


[image]local://upfiles/81634/80BDDC4B44C84DBB867E4B4AD9146805.jpg[/image]



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (9/25/2021 3:30:46 AM)

This is the first test results and ADs

[image]local://upfiles/81634/8FBA1878F324458EA886E1FB735D4A95.jpg[/image]



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (9/25/2021 3:37:29 AM)

And the second one.
Also, I've made a few more but there is not much variation worth to be shown and, to be noted, there still wasn't a single interception despite the attack on Cherlena, inside the triangle of 3 other bases with their full fighter force.

[image]local://upfiles/81634/7BD3898402064807903BAEDFF1DCDCF0.jpg[/image]



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (9/25/2021 3:45:53 AM)

Also, to be noted, the much higher losses inflicted to the Group attacking Bialystok from Przasnysz (5th AD).



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (9/25/2021 5:19:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58
After a few attempts to figure out how to do this, I decided on some map shots with the bombing locations. So Luftflotte 1 bombed well up the Baltics to get some bombers based to the north near Tallinn. You can see that there were two missions intercepted (the interceptions show up near the border not by the actual interception hex).


Hi carlkay,
You can avoid being intercepted when hitting those Airfields (or suffer very little losses if you are). I've rebased in range (without fuel tanks) those 8 groups of Ju 88 from Luftflotte 1 at the northern frontier airfield and set up 8 ADs to hit all those targets at the same priority level (and did nothing else):


[image]local://upfiles/81634/4E9BD506404E4D7B9150F8BE9BEA94CC.jpg[/image]



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (9/25/2021 5:21:44 AM)

Results: no interception.


[image]local://upfiles/81634/D6DB24F3B83B4C5186FD83EE3EA2A1E4.jpg[/image]



Hardradi -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (9/25/2021 5:36:34 AM)

In one of the AAR threads it was mentioned by two knowledgeable players that Ju-87s do not bomb unless the air directive is set to 8000ft. I do not think this is correct. My Stuka's still air base bomb at 6000ft or less.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/BA2yd34.jpg[/img]



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (9/25/2021 5:42:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hardradi

In one of the AAR threads it was mentioned by two knowledgeable players that Ju-87s do not bomb unless the air directive is set to 8000ft. I do not think this is correct. My Stuka's still air base bomb at 6000ft or less.


Yes, they do some (level) bombing lower than 8,000 ft but they do not dive-bomb (with bonus) unless set at 8,000+ ft. Meaning that it's much less effective to set them for lower altitude.



Hardradi -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (9/25/2021 6:31:39 AM)

Ah, thanks for tip. I have never had consistently good results from them. Will give it a try.



You can also take on Tallinn from Memel. Here, I use KG 1 with the 50kg's. Its a bit risky, sometimes they will scramble. The whole base can be wiped out. They used to even scramble to the bases to the south in Estonia, not sure now with the patch changes. I will have to have another go up there. I also re-base most of the KGs in the north forward. KG 1 takes on the far north (from Memel), KG 67 north and KG 77 the east.

Daugavpils and Minsk (and beyond) can also be targeted. This time you convert some of the BF 110 to fighters (they run at 80% efficiency). They provide escort protection for your bombers.

The bases along the Dnepr are very difficult to deal with, I leave them alone (havent tried with the new patch). Kiev area is also very hard but I am getting better results now.

All the bases within the Dnepr bend can be wiped out including Odessa and Ochakov. This leaves the Crimea which is easily cleaned out. I have never seen the fighters there scramble. Crimea can also be done without taking out Odessa and Ochakov by angling further south over the Black Sea.



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (9/25/2021 7:17:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hardradi

Ah, thanks for tip. I have never had consistently good results from them. Will give it a try.



You can also take on Tallinn from Memel. Here, I use KG 1 with the 50kg's. Its a bit risky, sometimes they will scramble. The whole base can be wiped out. They used to even scramble to the bases to the south in Estonia, not sure now with the patch changes. I will have to have another go up there. I also re-base most of the KGs in the north forward. KG 1 takes on the far north (from Memel), KG 67 north and KG 77 the east.

Daugavpils and Minsk (and beyond) can also be targeted. This time you convert some of the BF 110 to fighters (they run at 80% efficiency). They provide escort protection for your bombers.

The bases along the Dnepr are very difficult to deal with, I leave them alone (havent tried with the new patch). Kiev area is also very hard but I am getting better results now.

All the bases within the Dnepr bend can be wiped out including Odessa and Ochakov. This leaves the Crimea which is easily cleaned out. I have never seen the fighters there scramble. Crimea can also be done without taking out Odessa and Ochakov by angling further south over the Black Sea.



You should try that from Memel and, then, tell me if you have been intercepted:

[image]local://upfiles/81634/4D32979B17AE463EBB1BC167F6FF83FA.jpg[/image]



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (9/25/2021 7:22:23 AM)

well, mine didn't launch so I guess something failed :)



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (9/25/2021 7:33:45 AM)

But this one is working... and I've been intercepted :)

[image]local://upfiles/81634/921C071097A849EFB985D7FB4FDB566F.jpg[/image]



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (9/25/2021 7:41:13 AM)

It's a poor result for the effort (17 sorties) but it's interesting to show that even when the mission is intercepted, it's not going to be a disaster. In this case, a single aircraft was lost:


[image]local://upfiles/81634/02ACBDE64C8548A48AA11218E0C5725A.jpg[/image]



Hardradi -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (9/25/2021 7:52:27 AM)

I tried various strategies up there before the patch including coming in via the coast through the rain and from the lake. The air bases at Pskov and Dno are too dangerous. You need to use the 50kg bombs against inland fighter bases, they will get you if you use the drop tanks and the air base damage is not as effective. Even using the 50kg unescorted is risky.

Tartu used to be intercepted from Pskov and Dno. I might give that one another try.




metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (9/25/2021 8:18:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hardradi

I tried various strategies up there before the patch including coming in via the coast through the rain and from the lake. The air bases at Pskov and Dno are too dangerous. You need to use the 50kg bombs against inland fighter bases, they will get you if you use the drop tanks and the air base damage is not as effective. Even using the 50kg unescorted is risky.

Tartu used to be intercepted from Pskov and Dno. I might give that one another try.


I didn't notice anything changed for Ground Attack missions since the new patch and it worked the same before. The obvious change now is the effectiveness of auto-intercepting defensive ground support during the ground phase.

If you don't use my settings for your ADs, you'll get the same result.



Hardradi -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (9/25/2021 9:04:36 AM)

Since the patch change I have worked in an extra 1000 air base bombing kills. It seems easier to me. I have ran four tests on Tartu so far and not been intercepted from either Pskov and Dno.





HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (9/25/2021 6:58:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hardradi

Since the patch change I have worked in an extra 1000 air base bombing kills. It seems easier to me. I have ran four tests on Tartu so far and not been intercepted from either Pskov and Dno.





Long haul bombing is dangerous and should adhere to Jubjub's advice of not flying unescorted if you are flying unescorted.



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (9/25/2021 8:19:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hardradi
Since the patch change I have worked in an extra 1000 air base bombing kills. It seems easier to me. I have ran four tests on Tartu so far and not been intercepted from either Pskov and Dno.


That's the beauty of RNG. One day it seems to work all the time, then the next day, you'll be intercepted four times out of five.



Hardradi -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (9/25/2021 10:58:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: metaphore

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hardradi
Since the patch change I have worked in an extra 1000 air base bombing kills. It seems easier to me. I have ran four tests on Tartu so far and not been intercepted from either Pskov and Dno.


That's the beauty of RNG. One day it seems to work all the time, then the next day, you'll be intercepted four times out of five.


If you keep tweaking it, watch out, you might hit a point where your first GA objective will not fly anymore no matter what you do to it. It becomes devastating to your setup because it is usually one of the Mig base directives that stops flying.




GibsonPete -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (9/26/2021 12:09:20 AM)

I have found flying unescorted missions against fighter Airbases can become a house of cards. One bad die roll and a mission is intercepted and then another and then another. I appreciate all the input everyone has given and I will continue to borrow (steal) your great ideas, however; I do not have the courage to go completely without air on every mission. My tests show when it works it is great when it does not it very bad. The truth is out there.



Hardradi -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (9/26/2021 2:41:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: metaphore

Yes, they do some (level) bombing lower than 8,000 ft but they do not dive-bomb (with bonus) unless set at 8,000+ ft. Meaning that it's much less effective to set them for lower altitude.


These are working great now with the dive bombing. This free's up the long range bombers for more effective deeper runs. Just added another 150 kills on the first go.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GibsonPete

I have found flying unescorted missions against fighter Airbases can become a house of cards. One bad die roll and a mission is intercepted and then another and then another. I appreciate all the input everyone has given and I will continue to borrow (steal) your great ideas, however; I do not have the courage to go completely without air on every mission. My tests show when it works it is great when it does not it very bad. The truth is out there.


What you say is correct. You go to hit them hard with 50kg bombs. Up your allocation % for those specific missions and manually set the numbers of bombers for the run. This is what I do for Tallinn and others. Sometimes you get pinged. When you hit the fighter base with enough force on the first run it is usually cooked and will no fly again. Around Kiev, for example, once you pound those two fighter bases you are free to clean up everything around it.

Whats your acceptable Luftwaffe loss rate for turn 1? 10:1 15:1 20:1
Compare this to your loss rate after T1.



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (9/26/2021 5:01:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hardradi

quote:

ORIGINAL: GibsonPete

I have found flying unescorted missions against fighter Airbases can become a house of cards. One bad die roll and a mission is intercepted and then another and then another. I appreciate all the input everyone has given and I will continue to borrow (steal) your great ideas, however; I do not have the courage to go completely without air on every mission. My tests show when it works it is great when it does not it very bad. The truth is out there.


What you say is correct. You go to hit them hard with 50kg bombs. Up your allocation % for those specific missions and manually set the numbers of bombers for the run. This is what I do for Tallinn and others. Sometimes you get pinged. When you hit the fighter base with enough force on the first run it is usually cooked and will no fly again. Around Kiev, for example, once you pound those two fighter bases you are free to clean up everything around it.

Whats your acceptable Luftwaffe loss rate for turn 1? 10:1 15:1 20:1
Compare this to your loss rate after T1.


You guys are just laking in some degrees of creativity :)
I assure you that you really can get your bombers flying quite far and deep while still being effective -if they stay inside their range without fuel tanks - for having their right bombload- and they will barely never get intercepted at all.
No matter in what order your ADs have been set.
And if you get intercepted from time to time, it won't be a disaster for the rest of your missions.



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (9/26/2021 5:38:39 AM)

I'm teasing you with the result of a single AD I've run a couple of times with KG1, KG76 and KG77 Ju 88s from Luftflotte 1 based at the border bases up to Memel (that's 193 Ju 88). I've made a 10 hexes box centered at (176,138) covering Kaunas and Vilnius in the South up to Ventspils and Riga in the north (I couldn't fit Daugavpils on it).

That's 9 Airfields with 549 aircraft. First time, 545 were destroyed for 11 Ju 88 (6 Flak, 5 ops) in 299 sorties. Second try, 545 destroyed again in 304 sorties with 8 losses (7 Flak, 1 ops).

On the Soviet side, 2 Ar-2 survived at Gruzdziai and 2 Su-2 at Vilnius; everything else was wipped out, close to a clean sheet twice in a row.

So, there is some potential on it and it would be faster to show it if my game was working correctly without those frigging blue discs happening all the time.

[image]local://upfiles/81634/3AC1DFAD3BDA449A91727A6F02217267.jpg[/image]



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (9/26/2021 9:10:36 AM)

3rd test, clean sheet
I might use those Do 17 of KG2 on this one in order to use KG1 (at Memel) for striking somewhere else... Like Tallinn?

[image]local://upfiles/81634/E1A65EA82AEB4344A24995F48CAF41A6.jpg[/image]



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (9/26/2021 9:41:15 AM)

2 Air Directives for the North: one big box with 199 bombers + 57 Ju 88 of KG1 for Tallinn.

[image]local://upfiles/81634/7D6C3BCF8365486285D2DB595F512AF8.jpg[/image]



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (9/26/2021 10:05:25 AM)

Looks like not worth to do it that way.

It's adding barely 100 kills and, because of the range, the engine is sending only 34 sorties out of 57 bombers from KG1. They would be better used elsewhere. Moreover, there is no modern fighters based in Tallinn. I would rather strike the Li-2 transports from Tartu.

This time also, the Flak hit harder

[image]local://upfiles/81634/17378F8F262541D291128444B6674900.jpg[/image]



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (9/26/2021 11:03:02 AM)

It's Sunday Live AD Testing -real time report-, everyone is welcome to test theirs (and verify mine!).

I'm checking the effect of the previous raid. Looks like they nearly achieved a clean sheet for the Boxed AD as... 1 SB-2 was still alive in Vilnius and everything else was torched. 548 kills then.

Meaning that KG2 with 3 Groups of Do 17 is as effective as KG1 with 2 Groups of Ju 88. It make sense as the Dornier carry only 20 x 50 kg bombs vs 28 for the Junker while KG2 is limit understrength.

There is also more sorties flown at 312, but also more bombers to fly.

But I don't understand why only 34 sorties were flown during the raid on Tallinn; If they were in range, they should have flown at least 57 aircraft. They are all based at Memml. So why did they stop at 34? Their rebasing cost was only 6% of their miles. I've run it again and it's again 34 sorties for Tallinn.

Mystery

Here are the previous raid AD:


[image]local://upfiles/81634/0218FA24C6D24BF58CB768B05A48B3B8.jpg[/image]



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (9/26/2021 11:17:43 AM)

^Mystery solved
Miles are computed at Group level, not aircraft (manual). This is counterintuitive. It means that there was only enough miles left at KG1 to fly 34 aircraft as far as Tallinn, wasting the others as they would not fly anymore during this turn.
So it's really too expensive for such a bunch of poor targets to fly that far a whole Gueschwader of Ju 88.



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (9/26/2021 11:57:31 AM)

^Previous result doubtful!
I might have assigned KG1 to both AD by mistake but I can't verify it after overwritting the save!

Anyway, I'm changing the target in the North for KG1 and we'll see if the south is affected by not having it. Here is a little box for KG1 with two bases (Tartu for Li-2 and Pskov for Yak-1 fighters)



[image]local://upfiles/81634/DDE6389800904F30B1E07427493B1180.jpg[/image]



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (9/26/2021 12:29:24 PM)

Well... it's not better, somehow worse, but can confirm that it's too far for KG1 as it's sending, again, only 34 aircraft (this time I could check it and it's only flying the second AD).

Everything considered, 11 Yak-1 kills are not worth sending 57 bombers and I couldn't hit a single Li-2 with only 34 sorties. In the Southern box, 299 sorties and nothing was left alive of the VVS.

So the main issue is KG1 which shouldn't strike that far. Other targets are not the best suited for it being at Memel. Consequently, I'll reassign it to the other AD.

On top of game blue disc, the forum is having trouble, so it's hard to continue posting.

[image]local://upfiles/81634/FE148DD2C5824FCFA1810A3373174F3D.jpg[/image]



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