RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (Full Version)

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metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/15/2021 6:56:00 AM)

REBASING Hungarian Air Force

Procede as indicated below:

[image]local://upfiles/81634/3645D298AF174F9198F2960F03125828.jpg[/image]



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/15/2021 7:04:00 AM)

Hungarian AD: 2 airfields strike

[image]local://upfiles/81634/8A0E597E0FE447B6AB7F4D6DE267C4BC.jpg[/image]



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/15/2021 8:18:42 AM)

REBASING Rumanian Air Force

Procede as below in order to move Rumanian fighters closer to the border:

[image]local://upfiles/81634/2811F4D0E67046E3B78F79098AC10B4B.jpg[/image]



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/15/2021 8:20:46 AM)

Rumanian Air Force should look like that after rebasing:

[image]local://upfiles/81634/10D92DEDE6474776AECAD6DDC32CE6CE.jpg[/image]



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/15/2021 8:44:20 AM)

Last, we'll need to rebase all groups of KG 27 to Constanta and we will be good for building the last ADs (Rumanians and Luftflotte 4).

[image]local://upfiles/81634/28E318116EF94AA4A7982712A5AA08C5.jpg[/image]



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/15/2021 8:52:50 AM)

1st Rumanian AD: double strike on Chernovtsy AF with 50 bombers and 20 escort.

[image]local://upfiles/81634/0F22DB4B1E184FC4AC40CE38FB601077.jpg[/image]



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/15/2021 8:58:31 AM)

2nd Rumanian AD: double strike on Beltsy, same force.

[Note: my ADs are slightly different from jubjub's post because my rebasing of Rumanians is not exactly the same.]

[image]local://upfiles/81634/1CE06866543F42E09E1D44F1BDBD3D7C.jpg[/image]



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/15/2021 9:04:54 AM)

3rd Rumanian AD: strike at 3 Soviet airfields using Husi as a staging base.

[image]local://upfiles/81634/195BF0504CC747A8A6ED8E260936661B.jpg[/image]



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/15/2021 9:37:58 AM)

4th Rumanian AD: single strike at Bolgrad

[image]local://upfiles/81634/42E164AA84A74FC4A71571DAD5B14C92.jpg[/image]



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/15/2021 9:42:08 AM)

5th Rumanian AD: 2 airfields boxed; priority lowered to "High"; strength is 50/20.

[image]local://upfiles/81634/ED21F5CE058F440292086C24735F2D8C.jpg[/image]



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/15/2021 9:48:42 AM)

6th Rumanian AD: double strike at Odessa AF with 100 bombers & 20 escort. Priority is set to "High".

[image]local://upfiles/81634/8654BA872F274322A40E7977BD492FA8.jpg[/image]



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/15/2021 10:00:22 AM)

7th and last Rumanian AD: Strike at Kacha AF in Crimea with the remaining unescorted bombers; priority was set to "High".

[image]local://upfiles/81634/303AB037EC934076AB6D960D4AB187C8.jpg[/image]



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/15/2021 10:31:43 AM)

Final AD, and 9th for Luftflotte 4: 2 Crimean airfields bombing with 40 unescorted bombers of KG 27 from Constanta.

[image]local://upfiles/81634/A00DA7D32B3D46EFBF092588F65E0AFE.jpg[/image]



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/15/2021 10:35:45 AM)

I'm testing and verifying those ADs and I'll post the game save file here once it's done.



Nix77 -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/15/2021 11:33:04 AM)

I think you should set all unescorted sorties to lower priority.



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/15/2021 11:40:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77

I think you should set all unescorted sorties to lower priority.


Actually they are all set at lower priority as everything else is "very high". But yes, maybe those last in the South could be set even lower.

It seems that I'm getting more aircraft shot down than during my previous tests (in between, there was a couple of patches). Now, I've seen a few interceptions and, sometime, escort don't even prevent bomber losses - it's not a dramatic loss rate but I certainly had better overall results than that previously.

The good news is that it's certainly possible to improve those ADs by a good margin.



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/15/2021 1:27:24 PM)

Here is the save file (before any modification)



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/15/2021 1:30:09 PM)

Global map for those ADs:

[image]local://upfiles/81634/28FD31E7F78A4A83A184654AE33527D7.jpg[/image]



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/15/2021 2:17:14 PM)

Test Results.
- Losses:

[image]local://upfiles/81634/F6A448A785AF4411AFCBF607B096BF58.jpg[/image]



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/15/2021 2:18:45 PM)

- AD reported:


[image]local://upfiles/81634/46DE1F0F83AD4E5181E78C6EBC707087.jpg[/image]



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/15/2021 8:30:34 PM)

A total of 58 Soviet aircraft survived on 6 airfields amongst those covered by those ADs:

[image]local://upfiles/81634/D0B4EB7BE4404460B63554185DD83FA1.jpg[/image]



Zovs -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/16/2021 12:57:05 AM)

Thank you so much for putting this all together! Tremendous resource for doing T1 manual air in great detail.



GibsonPete -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/16/2021 1:30:11 AM)

Using the techniques you and others have shared I average over over 3000 soviet air frames destroyed with the axis losses being around 50 (+ or - 10), mostly operational. A huge difference from just eight weeks ago. Thank you for this. [&o]



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/16/2021 10:16:01 AM)

Thank you guys, I'm glad you liked it :)

Now, I'm going to improve all those ADs depending on what objective the Axis player will give the highest priority.

It could be:
a) - reducing losses
b) - increasing the number of destroyed Soviet airframes
c) - preparation for the ground phase in order to kill as many Soviet pilots as possible


My favorite would be the last one as I think that is what would damage the VVS most, but it's also more difficult to measure its effect immediately after the Air Phase (we'll need to wait for a full turn result).



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/17/2021 6:31:21 AM)

b) - increasing the number of destroyed airframes:

- Soviet losses are close to 4,000 airframes, about 700 more than previous ADs;
- Axis losses were kept under 100, which would be an acceptable cost; to be noted that nearly half were due to AA fire;
- Number of Sorties went down from 2,958 to 2,017, nearly one thousand less, which also means a lot less ammo and fuel burned;
- Those hastily modified ADs can certainly be refined further for even better results...

[image]local://upfiles/81634/D740C8AD249D4BD0BB2889BF26C15B44.jpg[/image]



Zovs -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/17/2021 10:29:37 AM)

What further modifications did you do for item b)?



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/17/2021 3:10:15 PM)

This is what you are fighting against to get the most aircraft destroyed on the first turn. I will let everyone fill out the parameters of the "Bell Curve" & yes you will have outliers. But there is a theoretical limit to how many aircraft you can destroy(peak Soviet plane destruction) & knowing the rough estimate at the top is a good way of judging that. The next parameter is how many aircraft & pilots the Germans lose in the process. I believe I know that top of the bell curve so I go for close to peak Soviet plane destruction and the least amount of aircraft and pilots lost for the Germans on the Bell Curve which in my opinion the true test of how efficient your bombing is.

So our math wizards can put the numbers in since I have not done math since my "Master" classes in college.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/BBE20B2E14404155B33F4519B3B9146E.jpg[/image]



AlbertN -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/17/2021 4:20:45 PM)

Somehow the 'area' business does not work for me.
The AI will allocate Bf109 fighters as bombers, send them in, not destroy enough Soviet fighters on the ground; then the 'escort of 10 fighters' get overwhelmed here and there.

There must be a passage I am missing because I quite fancy the 'draw a few ADs and get done' instaed of the 1 by 1 individual airfield targetting.



Zovs -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/17/2021 6:15:26 PM)

I did a first test with Luft 1 in RTL following these guides and the results were outstanding, 7 lost to 700. Try a smaller test for each Luft. This was tested in 0.15 beta, going to test the next beta patch Monday.



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/17/2021 8:44:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

Somehow the 'area' business does not work for me.
The AI will allocate Bf109 fighters as bombers, send them in, not destroy enough Soviet fighters on the ground; then the 'escort of 10 fighters' get overwhelmed here and there.

There must be a passage I am missing because I quite fancy the 'draw a few ADs and get done' instaed of the 1 by 1 individual airfield targetting.

Yes, I've noticed in my latest tests that results were different from previous build but it's possible to refine those ADs to make them work again.



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