RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (Full Version)

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metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/17/2021 8:53:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

This is what you are fighting against to get the most aircraft destroyed on the first turn. I will let everyone fill out the parameters of the "Bell Curve" & yes you will have outliers. But there is a theoretical limit to how many aircraft you can destroy(peak Soviet plane destruction) & knowing the rough estimate at the top is a good way of judging that. The next parameter is how many aircraft & pilots the Germans lose in the process. I believe I know that top of the bell curve so I go for close to peak Soviet plane destruction and the least amount of aircraft and pilots lost for the Germans on the Bell Curve which in my opinion the true test of how efficient your bombing is.

So our math wizards can put the numbers in since I have not done math since my "Master" classes in college.



The definitive limit is the number of Soviet aircraft in range of German bombers :)



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/18/2021 7:50:02 AM)

I've run a test this morning, refining a few ADs, and I overshoot 4,000 airframes destroyed.

Losses were kept under 100 but a lot of Ju 88 lost to Flak and ops losses. It doesn't feel right to me compared to He 111 losses (both this test and previous one) while there is roughly 3 Ju 88 for 2 He 111 on the map (15 groups vs 10). So maybe something weird is going on here as those Junkers were better bombers than older Heinkel.

I've kept the total number of sorties arround 2,000 and was aiming for 2 kills per sortie; I finally got 2.07.

At this point, It's probably still possible to refine those ADs and achieve better results:



[image]local://upfiles/81634/F4B8C467DFA146179BD1E6D76E581526.jpg[/image]



speedyglides -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/18/2021 8:14:42 AM)

Maybe it is possible to reduce flak losses micromanaging routes to AD areas and single hex missions so they don't fly over the highest enemy AA value hexes. I used to do that when I used tons of single hex missions in T1. Will try this evening to check results.



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/18/2021 8:27:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: speedyglides

Maybe it is possible to reduce flak losses micromanaging routes to AD areas and single hex missions so they don't fly over the highest enemy AA value hexes. I used to do that when I used tons of single hex missions in T1. Will try this evening to check results.

Yes you are right concerning AA losses as this could be a factor. Another one is flight altitude.

But disregarding AA losses only and considering that Ju 88 and He 111 on map ratio is 3/2, that ADs settings for both are the same but that loss rate is 5/1 (52 Junkers for 9 Heinkel), it's telling me that something funky could have been coded about those planes.



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/18/2021 8:48:53 AM)

There is also some funky coding concerning the way aircraft/groups/AOG are auto-allocated to missions by the engine: some are flown to the end of their lives (100% travel) while others close by are just waiting doing nothing (0%) and some pilots are totally overused (1 flew up to 38 missions in one day!) compared to others.



Zovs -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/18/2021 5:21:54 PM)

@metaphore, do you still recommend this: StG 1, 2 & 77 were not used and set to REST on turn 1 ?

Also, do you send all Me 100's to reserve as per HYLA ?



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/18/2021 6:16:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

@metaphore, do you still recommend this: StG 1, 2 & 77 were not used and set to REST on turn 1 ?

Also, do you send all Me 100's to reserve as per HYLA ?


Nope, I've used all 7 stukas groups for my late ADs and none of the Bf 110 Groups (ZG 26 and SKG 210). There is one Bf 110 loss logged but it seems related to Stuka gruppe stabs which I forgot to set on "Rest".

Previously, I was simply implementing jubjub's ADs and he did the opposite.



Jango32 -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/18/2021 7:31:51 PM)

Was there any reason for moving the Romanian Combat Air Command from Luftflotte 4 to the Romanian HQ? Same with the Hungarian commands.



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/18/2021 8:36:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32

Was there any reason for moving the Romanian Combat Air Command from Luftflotte 4 to the Romanian HQ? Same with the Hungarian commands.


Beside the fact that jubjub's ADs were built like that, nope!
Just take it like an exercice for building your own ADs and your question is proving that you have passed this stage.

There is only 9 German ADs set for Luftflotte 4 out of 32 possible. Unless one want to build 27+ -like I did myself in my late version-, Hungarians and Rumanians groups could have all been left subordinated to LF4 instead of regrouping them under their own national air commands.



AlbertN -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/19/2021 12:44:33 AM)

Mostly - is it really felt the difference in Air Skill of the various HQs?



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/19/2021 2:27:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN
Mostly - is it really felt the difference in Air Skill of the various HQs?

Not that I can tell from such missions results. It would probably be felt in time though.



Zovs -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/20/2021 2:23:06 PM)

So I have ran five tests thus far with the current beta patch (I'll be running a 'live' test with the latest beta patch for an upcoming AAR game as well using some of these principles).

The results are interesting:

Version Installed: 01.01.15Beta
Exe File Version: 1.01.15_Beta

jubjub's original T1 AD results
27 AD
Total sorties: 3600
Lost: 62
Damaged: 99

Pilots KIA: 17
Fighters: 11
Fighter Bombers: 12
Tactical Bombers: 3
Level Bombers: 36

Air Losses: 0
Flak Losses: 15
Operational Losses: 47
Total Loses: 62

Soviet:
Pilots KIA: 542
Fighters: 672
Fighter Bombers: 1,733
Tactical Bombers: 149
Level Bombers: 455
Recon: 174
Transport: 32
Torpedo Bomber: 39

Air combat Losses: 11
Lost on the ground: 3,243
Total Losses: 3,254



metaphore's original T1 AD results (first test had 85 total German losses and about 40 more Soviet losses).
24 AD
Total sorties: 2888
Lost: 102
Damaged: 86

Pilots KIA: 56
Fighters: 3
Fighter Bombers: 10
Tactical Bombers: 10
Level Bombers: 79

Air Combat Losses: 31
Flak Losses: 19
Operational Losses: 52
Total Lost: 102

Soviet:
Pilots KIA: 496
Fighters: 679
Fighter Bombers: 1,754
Tactical Bombers: 149
Level Bombers: 443
Recon: 167
Transport: 15
Torpedo Bomber: 40

Air combat Losses:
Lost on the ground: 3,247
Total Losses: 3,247


my-tweaks to the metaphore T1 AD results #1
26 AD
Total sorties: 3004
Lost: 85
Damaged: 72

Pilots KIA: 24
Fighters: 6
Fighter Bombers: 14
Tactical Bombers: 7
Level Bombers: 58

Air Losses: 0
Flak Losses: 22
Operational Losses: 63
Total Losses: 85

Soviet:
Pilots KIA: 574
Fighters: 681
Fighter Bombers: 1,911
Tactical Bombers: 149
Level Bombers: 433
Recon: 183
Transport: 40
Torpedo Bomber: 32

Air Losses: 0
Lost on the ground: 3,429
Total Losses: 3,429


my-tweaks-2 to the metaphore T1 AD results #2
28 AD
Total sorties: 3131
Lost: 109
Damaged: 91

Pilots KIA: 51
Fighters: 0
Fighter Bombers: 14
Tactical Bombers: 4
Level Bombers: 91

Air Combat Losses: 34
Flak Losses: 12
Operational Losses: 63
Total Losses: 109

Soviet:
Pilots KIA: 600
Fighters: 681
Fighter Bombers: 2,010
Tactical Bombers: 149
Level Bombers: 436
Recon: 179
Transport: 40
Torpedo Bomber: 37

Air Combat Losses: 7
Lost on the ground: 3,524
Total Losses: 3,532



Teo41_ITA -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/20/2021 2:53:48 PM)

Zovs, could you share your tweaks? I am also playing around with manual directives and I will be happy to compare them with mine (currently testing different altitudes and boxes vs. specific airfields).



GibsonPete -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/20/2021 3:50:51 PM)

Interesting results Zovs, I may have to 'reexamine' my turn one air. I am satisfied with my results 40 to 80 lost with over 3000 kills but it is time consuming to set up. Jubjub's & Metaphore's box method seems easier and faster to setup.



Zovs -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/20/2021 3:54:49 PM)

Sure:

Tweaks:

Luftflotte 1
GA 177,130 (Riga)
Strike: 1
Priority: Norm
Req AC(Esc): 40(Auto)

GA 188,136 (Daugavpils)
Strike: 1
Priority: Norm
Req AC(Esc): 40(Auto)


Luftflotte 2
Changed 4th and 5th missions priority to Norm

Luftflotte 4
Changed all unescorted missions to Priority: Norm

GA 194,186 (Tarnopol) * testing now - okay
Strike: 1
Req AC(Esc): 40(10)

GA 206,185 (Vinnitsa) * testing now - disaster will scrub and retest
Strike: 1
Priority: Norm
Req AC(Esc): 40(Auto)

GA 212,188 (Teplik) * testing now - disaster will scrub and rest
Area: 1(9)
Strike: 2
Priority: Norm
Req AC(Esc): 40(Auto)



My tweaks using metaphore's as a base and the tweaks above results:
35 AD
Total sorties: 3160
Lost: 152 (The mission to Vinnitsa got trashed, lost 35 out of 40 there, and the last one in that group lost 22. so I lost 55 from those last two Luftflotte 4 missions.)
Damaged: 100

Pilots KIA: 82
Fighters: 12
Fighter Bombers: 15
Tactical Bombers: 1
Level Bombers: 124

Air Combat Losses: 57
Flak Losses: 18
Operational Losses: 77
Total Lost: 152

Soviet
Pilots KIA: 565
Fighters: 677
Fighter Bombers: 1,945
Tactical Bombers: 178
Level Bombers: 448
Recon: 194
Transport: 38
Torpedo Bomber: 38

Air Combat Losses: 4
Lost on the ground: 3,504
Total Losses: 3,508


I can to better.




Zovs -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/20/2021 4:16:28 PM)

Originally jubjub set most of Luft 4 to 30(10) or 30(Auto), but metaphore used 40(10) and 40(Auto) and that seems to incur higher German Losses.

So my next test was to remove those 2 disasters from Luft 4 (Vinnitsa and Teplik) and changing the ones in Luft 4 from 40(10) and 40(Auto) to 30(10) and 30(Auto). I am still leaving the 2 extra ones in Luft 1, those seem okay. But all unescorted missions I have been setting to priority Norm and in all cases where warranted avoid the flak.

2nd test:

My tweaks using metaphore's as a base and the jubjub tweaks above yields the best so far:
33 AD
Total sorties: 2898
Lost: 74
Damaged: 94

Pilots KIA: 24
Fighters: 7
Fighter Bombers: 11
Tactical Bombers: 3
Level Bombers: 53

Air Combat Losses: 0
Flak Losses: 18
Operational Losses: 56
Total Lost: 74

Soviet
Pilots KIA: 532
Fighters: 680
Fighter Bombers: 1,830
Tactical Bombers: 178
Level Bombers: 417
Recon: 169
Transport: 19
Torpedo Bomber: 40

Air Combat Losses: 0
Lost on the ground: 3,333
Total Losses: 3,333

I can live with these results.



Zovs -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/20/2021 6:50:34 PM)

Here are some tests I did:

[img]https://i.imgur.com/i8ORPsch.png[/img]



Teo41_ITA -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/20/2021 7:42:00 PM)

Interesting! Thanks for sharing this!

PS: may I ask you where did you get the 1.02.00_beta patch from? [:)]



metaphore -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/20/2021 8:34:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Originally jubjub set most of Luft 4 to 30(10) or 30(Auto), but metaphore used 40(10) and 40(Auto) and that seems to incur higher German Losses.

So my next test was to remove those 2 disasters from Luft 4 (Vinnitsa and Teplik) and changing the ones in Luft 4 from 40(10) and 40(Auto) to 30(10) and 30(Auto). I am still leaving the 2 extra ones in Luft 1, those seem okay. But all unescorted missions I have been setting to priority Norm and in all cases where warranted avoid the flak.


Well, actually I was simply trying to recopy exactly what jubjub did but obviously failed at this point :)
My own method is pretty different from those ADs as I've set 83 ADs in my last test (posted above) without using a single fighter (all were set to "rest").



Zovs -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/20/2021 8:50:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Teo41_ITA

Interesting! Thanks for sharing this!

PS: may I ask you where did you get the 1.02.00_beta patch from? [:)]


I am part of the alpha/beta testing team.



Zovs -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (10/20/2021 8:57:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: metaphore

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Originally jubjub set most of Luft 4 to 30(10) or 30(Auto), but metaphore used 40(10) and 40(Auto) and that seems to incur higher German Losses.

So my next test was to remove those 2 disasters from Luft 4 (Vinnitsa and Teplik) and changing the ones in Luft 4 from 40(10) and 40(Auto) to 30(10) and 30(Auto). I am still leaving the 2 extra ones in Luft 1, those seem okay. But all unescorted missions I have been setting to priority Norm and in all cases where warranted avoid the flak.


Well, actually I was simply trying to recopy exactly what jubjub did but obviously failed at this point :)
My own method is pretty different from those ADs as I've set 83 ADs in my last test (posted above) without using a single fighter (all were set to "rest").



You did quite well actually. I received jubjub's file and was just doing a comparison between his and yours. There is only a slight deviation, mostly in the south, where he used 30(10) or 30(Auto) and his order was a bit different then yours.

With my "modified" one, I used yours as a base, which is quite a fantastic job you have done and educated me on some of the more finer parts of the manual air war so I think you very much for that. I just took what you did and analyzed what jubjub did and ran tests of all yours. Then for my own I 'experimented' a bit and added 2 more unescorted GA for Luft 1, and one (I think) more for Luft 4 (yes, I tried 3 and failed on the two).

By switching Luft 4 to 30(10)/30(Auto) that helped reduce the Axis losses.

Also, jubjub did not use a Hungarian GA, I like using it as per your setting.

Personally I think what you did is great, and with a little tweaking on my part I am pretty happy with the results (and what the new patch seems to be showing).

I may try to 'codify' pages 3-6 into a PDF, but first I need to get my CG41 moving now that Turn 1 air is most successfully.

By the way all our results are above historic results for the first day and week. I found a great sources or two and on average the historical account is something like 35 German planes lost to 1250 or so on D1. For the whole week it was something like less then 100 to 3 to 4 k IIRC.



56ajax -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (11/3/2021 10:08:54 AM)

This is most helpful and I have had much fun in recreating these ADs.

Question : What causes the system to over ride your selected staging airbase and use another one miles away?



GibsonPete -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (11/3/2021 1:01:41 PM)

Question : What causes the system to over ride your selected staging airbase and use another one miles away?

My Answer: The magic of AI assist. Turn it off.



jubjub -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (11/3/2021 1:15:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GibsonPete

Question : What causes the system to over ride your selected staging airbase and use another one miles away?

My Answer: The magic of AI assist. Turn it off.


I think he's referring to the automatic airbase selection by AI. If you want the AI to honor your airbase pick, you need to set 'follow path' to yes.



56ajax -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (11/3/2021 10:05:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jubjub


quote:

ORIGINAL: GibsonPete

Question : What causes the system to over ride your selected staging airbase and use another one miles away?

My Answer: The magic of AI assist. Turn it off.


I think he's referring to the automatic airbase selection by AI. If you want the AI to honor your airbase pick, you need to set 'follow path' to yes.


Thanks very much. I will give that a crack and see what happens.

(Can we have 'follow path' changed to 'please use my selections you !@!#$'?)



56ajax -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (11/4/2021 7:33:28 AM)

I changed the Follow Path to Yes which did force the system to use my Staging Base. (There was a small bug that effects the first? created AD whereby the Follow Path option does not appear on Edit. Gave me a scare but there was a simple work around.)

Every now and then the system gets a good die roll which clobbers one of my missions.

Not finished yet.



Hardradi -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (11/4/2021 9:20:03 AM)

.



56ajax -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (11/5/2021 4:01:54 AM)

Well I have created the ADs as per metaphore (thank you) with some errors I must admit. Some air combat is being generated and those ME110s are stinkers. I will fix up those errors and try some tweaks but in the mean time.....

[image]local://upfiles/27310/939BF42150604F5AA39F95FEC2197855.jpg[/image]



56ajax -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (11/5/2021 8:12:59 AM)

My first tweak....

[image]local://upfiles/27310/FCD19B7A13F344699745B15BF3312A9F.jpg[/image]



56ajax -> RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips (11/6/2021 1:44:56 AM)

Just updated to 1.02.01_Beta and ran without any AD changes. One Rumanian AD get clobbered and counts for all Air combat losses.

[image]local://upfiles/27310/20105C7D000C4EB1B18E4DFB8AFD24FA.jpg[/image]



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