RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (Full Version)

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Sir.Arnold -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/3/2021 3:46:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sir.Arnold
I’m sorry that you’re wrong, because even in the Stalingrad to Berlin scenario, everything I’ve said existed. It was the winter of 1943.


There should be a clear divide. Before the "turning point" or november '42 (aka smash the weak allies on the flanks and annihilate a whole German army) and after that moment. Before = [Soviet] catastrophes, catastrophes and more catastrophes. After = start stuffing the Germans. As long as this works I can't see any problem.

I was not wrong when I said you were describing er, Barbarossa.

Best regards


I can only say that many people are too superstitious about the German army

The failure of the Soviet Union in 41-42 was really more due to the Soviet Union’s strategic command errors
for example

In June 41, the entire Soviet army had serious logistical problems. This has multiple historical facts. At the same time, the entire Western Front defensive positions were arranged incorrectly. This was the main reason for the German army success in June-July 41

The Soviet forces, especially the mechanized forces, were too superstitious in mobile operations, resulting in a large number of mechanized forces losing their combat effectiveness during the maneuvering process (such as the 8th Mechanized corps)

41 Smolensk, the high-level Soviet generals forced the unequipped Soviet infantry division to launch an offensive against the German army (this is obviously a suicide, some generals did not follow the order and played well, such as Lukin and Rokosovsky)

41 In Kiev, Stalin and high-level generals’ miscommands led to the annihilation of nearly 600,000 troops

In the winter of 41, if it were not for the total TOE of the Soviet infantry division at that time, generally only about 50%, and Stalin wrongly launched a full counterattack, the German Army Group Central was destroyed in the winter of 41 (you can read Glantz's book, It has a detailed description)

In the summer of 42, Stalin and high-ranking generals not only misjudged the main direction of the German army, but also wrongly overestimated the offensive capabilities of the Red Army. They launched the Battle of Lezhev, resulting in losses of more than 1 million troops. At the same time, the southern line was defeated by the Germans. Until the German army stopped in the Caucasus and Stalingrad due to supply problems

These problems are the command problems of Stalin and high-level generals. Players can avoid them.

That's why I play this game

I am a person who likes to study more. I have also done a lot of research on the Eastern Front of World War II. Many people mistakenly overestimated the combat capabilities of the German army. The German army achieved a lot of results in 41-42 because the Soviet Union made a lot of mistakes. Many, not that the Germans were too strong. By 43 Kursk, the Soviet Union corrected their mistakes, and the result was that the Germans lost, completely lost.



ShaggyHiK -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/3/2021 11:12:17 PM)

A question for the German players, in your opinion, is this an adequate outcome?

The battle for Tallinn takes place on turn 3, the power ratio is 1.2 to 1 and the city is taken. In the combat statistics, as you can see, there are almost no division units in the defense of the division, even 1/10 of its composition does not participate, but the final losses of the Soviet division kill most of all. The Germans were able to clear the city from the Soviet infantry, having lost only 53 people.



ShaggyHiK -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/3/2021 11:18:03 PM)

The entire composition of the division lost after the battle:



ShaggyHiK -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/3/2021 11:34:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

And in Winter '43 the Russians when going on the offensive, smartly smashed Axis minors and not the Germans.
One may wonder why, even in Winter '43. Ah yes because the other offensive, against German forces, did not exactly went so well for the Russians. (Besides it is simply more efficient to hit the weather spots).

I agree with JubJub on that notion notheless.


I'm sorry, what? That is, the Red Army in the winter of 1941-42 pushed the Romanians away from Moscow? You are saying something stupid, I do not know what you are based on, but it looks like you’re a hard-core German lover, maybe you also share the views of the German propaganda? Well, there the German soldier is stronger than 10 Soviet soldiers, the wunderwaffe, the Mongol hordes that the corpses reached Berlin??



AlbertN -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/3/2021 11:37:37 PM)

I believe that has nothing to do with City, Artillery, Talinn or else.
Where the HQ was compared to Talinn?
Because the massive drop of CV of the division defending Talinn to me is justifiable only if the HQ (already in the hands of a poor commander) was the hell away from Talinn (ie, over 5 hexes of distance). So pratically the wider and broader majority of the elements fail their morale / initiative / whatnot test en mass, and the Soviet unit is pratically ... useless in defending the City.

That's pure game mechanic knowledge. Then if you say that your HQ was stacked in Talinn, it may be another tale but that leader iirc is one of the 2-3 stat guys!



ShaggyHiK -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/3/2021 11:43:16 PM)

To which I will answer you that the troops are not so dependent on their leader. He does not control each of his soldiers individually. In fact, this is the task of sergeants and lentenants below the chain of command. In fact, the division is divided into regiments, regiments into battalions and battalions into companies and companies into platoons. And in fact, we can talk about the combat independence of troops up to the level of a company, and in some cases up to a platoon. If the commander is not close, but even so, the headquarters of the 8th Army was in Tallinn itself.



ShaggyHiK -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/4/2021 12:04:42 AM)

The answer is that there are only 569 combat-ready men in a 10k division. The rest are damaged elements and do not take part in the battle, which again is not a realistic scenario. What prevents people who have been wounded from being withdrawn to the rear, and those who are still able to be useful in battle with light wounds to be brought together in a weighty combat platoons?



Gam3r -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/4/2021 1:35:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK

The battle for Tallinn takes place on turn 3, the power ratio is 1.2 to 1 and the city is taken.


The reason behind this is that devs setup individual unit str. based upon outcome of a entire summer campaighn.

Axis won with a score of 10 to 1 in summer? So we setup axis units to be a 10 times stronger than soviets.

But they won not bcs of individual units str, but by a clever encirclements.

In fact, there is a numerous cases when encircled soviet armies can achieve a breaktrough from INSIDE the pocket and get some of their divs out.

In game all encircled units became useless despite never participating in combat. Units in pocket should not be considered pocketed on the first turn, bcs they made flanking attack on a units that actually still try to pocket them. Players playing on the same week right?



Seminole -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/4/2021 3:17:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gam3r

In fact, there is a numerous cases when encircled soviet armies can achieve a breaktrough from INSIDE the pocket and get some of their divs out.

In game all encircled units became useless despite never participating in combat. Units in pocket should not be considered pocketed on the first turn, bcs they made flanking attack on a units that actually still try to pocket them. Players playing on the same week right?



I have always been a little bothered by how promptly isolated forces turn into offensive kittens even when supplied.
To the extent they’re supplied and rallied you should be able to throw them effectively against the inside of pockets.
Now it just feels like an exercise in fatigue generation for doomed units.

Perhaps the isolation effect of ammo conservation should be a readiness option: Ready / Reserve / Refit (Conserve)- replace Refit for isolated units since it’s unavailable anyway?




DesertedFox -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/4/2021 4:52:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gam3r

In fact, there is a numerous cases when encircled soviet armies can achieve a breaktrough from INSIDE the pocket and get some of their divs out.

In game all encircled units became useless despite never participating in combat. Units in pocket should not be considered pocketed on the first turn, bcs they made flanking attack on a units that actually still try to pocket them. Players playing on the same week right?



I have always been a little bothered by how promptly isolated forces turn into offensive kittens even when supplied.
To the extent they’re supplied and rallied you should be able to throw them effectively against the inside of pockets.
Now it just feels like an exercise in fatigue generation for doomed units.

Perhaps the isolation effect of ammo conservation should be a readiness option: Ready / Reserve / Refit (Conserve)- replace Refit for isolated units since it’s unavailable anyway?




+1



GibsonPete -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/4/2021 6:24:14 PM)

I disagree, the Soviet Union is very playable. The Soviet Union will take Berlin. The Soviet Union will occupy the homelands of the axis allies. It is a matter of when not if. The snapshots provided are not enough to sway me on the subject. It is simply not enough evidence to justify the conclusion. I detect bias. If artillery is an 'issue' it is minor, and the developers will tweak it.



loki100 -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/4/2021 9:11:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GibsonPete

I disagree, the Soviet Union is very playable. The Soviet Union will take Berlin. The Soviet Union will occupy the homelands of the axis allies. It is a matter of when not if. The snapshots provided are not enough to sway me on the subject. It is simply not enough evidence to justify the conclusion. I detect bias. If artillery is an 'issue' it is minor, and the developers will tweak it.


yep agree, the game had unintentionally slipped to being far too hard for an axis player to get anywhere near the historical achievements, early evidence is this plus that Assault Front changes has really unblocked the early game - far better all round



IDGBIA -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/5/2021 5:02:18 AM)

how is artillery a minor issue? you can load up the old patch and test the beta changes turn holds into routs, entire soviet divisions get suppressed by artillery you have to bring 30k men to any battle just to stand a chance to fire a shot back at all if Germany has more than 3 arty support groups join its why german casualties are so low soviets dont even shoot back with how arty is they just hide and then rout taking 80% casualties to any deliberate



Sir.Arnold -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/5/2021 5:09:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GibsonPete

I disagree, the Soviet Union is very playable. The Soviet Union will take Berlin. The Soviet Union will occupy the homelands of the axis allies. It is a matter of when not if. The snapshots provided are not enough to sway me on the subject. It is simply not enough evidence to justify the conclusion. I detect bias. If artillery is an 'issue' it is minor, and the developers will tweak it.


Artillery is not a small problem. This is not bias

If you don't believe it, you choose the Soviet army and I choose the German army to play GC41.

This is clearly the game level of German players

GC41 Trun 11 human vs human

There are only 2 million Soviet troops left on the map. In the next Trun, the Soviet troops will be reduced to less than 1.9 million. This guy is definitely not going to survive 1942


[image]local://upfiles/81362/41CEBC0444324EFF827AB630B11EE5A3.jpg[/image]



IDGBIA -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/5/2021 5:35:21 AM)

I think the main problem with artilery is that it invalidates some ways you think the game ought to work. like terrain and rivers, with the artillery change terrain and rivers don't really do anything since if germany deliberates you and passes the initiative check you're getting your cvs droped to 4 regardless of if its a swamp, clear, light or heavy Forrest so alot of ideas about defensive terrain sort of become invalidated and the main thing that matters isnt terrain but getting enough elements in a tile that you wont get 90% of everything there disrupted



IDGBIA -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/5/2021 5:37:53 AM)

the only advantage terrain offers is that at least Germany cant deliberate you twice if he has to cross a river in-between



Sir.Arnold -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/5/2021 5:41:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: IDGBIA

I think the main problem with artilery is that it invalidates some ways you think the game ought to work. like terrain and rivers, with the artillery change terrain and rivers don't really do anything since if germany deliberates you and passes the initiative check you're getting your cvs droped to 4 regardless of if its a swamp, clear, light or heavy Forrest so alot of ideas about defensive terrain sort of become invalidated and the main thing that matters isnt terrain but getting enough elements in a tile that you wont get 90% of everything there disrupted


This is the truth



Thogode -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/5/2021 8:36:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sir.Arnold


quote:

ORIGINAL: IDGBIA

I think the main problem with artilery is that it invalidates some ways you think the game ought to work. like terrain and rivers, with the artillery change terrain and rivers don't really do anything since if germany deliberates you and passes the initiative check you're getting your cvs droped to 4 regardless of if its a swamp, clear, light or heavy Forrest so alot of ideas about defensive terrain sort of become invalidated and the main thing that matters isnt terrain but getting enough elements in a tile that you wont get 90% of everything there disrupted


This is the truth


Sorry if my question looks dull to you.
But could you please elaborate your point of view for a rookie like me?
Does terrain matter or not?
Thanks.



IDGBIA -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/5/2021 11:36:01 AM)

oversimplifying a bit but what terrain does is modify the cvs of both sides so dense terrain gives the defender a cv multiplier and lowers the cv of attackers, normally for AFVs attacking into forests or whatever however because of artilery disruption being as high as it is you can often have your cvs lowered so much as a defender that the terrain in effect doesnt help you and you rout and lose a load of men because of the combat odds



IDGBIA -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/5/2021 11:42:12 AM)

kind of like this, now this is an silly example and no I don't think soviets should hold this but it would be nice to not have the entire division suppressed by 9 arty elements joining and losing 80% of it on a rout
[image]local://upfiles/82525/2C6E6324B0F44C00AECCFF83CE7FFC88.gif[/image]



IDGBIA -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/5/2021 11:50:33 AM)

heres another maybe more reasonable example, notice how the starting soviet cv is higher than the german but because of arty it goes all the way down to almost nothing and retreats barely even firing back. this is just swamp but I've had many similar battles on heavy forest and light forest, and before anyone says "ah hah you don't have any forts" I'd say the same thing about forts, below level 3 they dont stop arty disruption so again they give you some nice looking base CV but it still ends up going all the way down if germany passes his initiative rolls and gets 3 or more arty elements to join


[image]local://upfiles/82525/D45E3F5078EC4BFEA5719FF58CD3E527.gif[/image]



Zovs -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/5/2021 12:02:18 PM)

I don’t see anything wrong with that last example, it’s 8/41, the Germans have a 2-1 in division advantage (not even mentioning better morale, experience and leadership) and 5 (from that screen shot) artillery battalions against an unsupported Soviet Rifle division (most likely with poor leadership, bad morale and low experience).

There has been a lot of posts and I think they are taking things out of context and there is a lot of Miss understanding of all the various variables and factors involved in each battle.

This game is not an old board war game where you calculate an odds and roll a six sided die and add or sub track 1 or 2 and an entire division is removed from the map and placed in the dead pool.



IDGBIA -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/5/2021 12:17:23 PM)

they have 50 morale 49xp the general is 8 morale 7 inf 6 initiative and the front commander is 6 inf 7 morale 7 initiative, and they're the 41a rifle div still, these are quite simply some of the best circumstances for a soviet divison in 41 and they're on a swamp and when attacked they kill 6 men... I dont think soviet should win this battle but 6 men? this is what im saying the change means you have to totally rethink how to even hold tiles, you go from thinking about hmm maybe I can kill or damage some Germans here and wear them down to "hopefully I don't lose my whole division when I rout" you dont even use up german supplies because arty uses very little ammo compared to the effect



GibsonPete -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/5/2021 4:28:29 PM)

"There has been a lot of posts and I think they are taking things out of context and there is a lot of misunderstanding of all the various variables and factors involved in each battle."

Zovs +1 on your post.



IDGBIA -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/5/2021 8:58:58 PM)

How is this out of context, these are screenshots showing the exact complaint that soviet units simply don't behave how you'd expect them too in the current patch and inflict close to no losses on German units even in supposedly good terrain. zovs is ignoring context within the screenshot itself, saying its an unsupported rifle division when it has 4 support elements present and claiming the German leadership is better in this case when Wiktorin is 4 morale 6 inf 5 initiative giving him only a slight advantage due to soviet command maluses and lack of corp level. you ignore the context that this is a battle soviets should at least do some damage in and not totally disintegrate with only a single plucky rifle squad managing to hit anything at all. You say there are factors involved in battle that are being overlooked but that seems to simply not be the case, the only factor that matters right now is how much German artillery joins the battle and how many soviet elements are present to maybe stand a chance of not being 90% disrupted everything else only impacts not if you'll lose but how much. the Soviet union is unintuitive and frustrating to play and to appeal to history for a moment, German infantry was significantly weakened clearing pockets during Barbarossa, while currently in game they assaults soviets in harsh terrain with close to no losses or damage, the disruption means German combat power simply doesn't degrade or slow down walking forward and deliberating turn after turn routing soviet units aslong as the artillery joins.



thedoctorking -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/5/2021 9:21:41 PM)

I think the second combat example is kind of a problem; the Soviets are outnumbered 2:1 in men and guns, but they are in superior defensive terrain, they are supported by three artillery regiments, which should be doing some damage to the attacking Germans, and yet their forces just wilt away without inflicting any damage whatsoever on the attackers. The Germans might win this fight, but it should cost them.



Stamb -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/5/2021 10:38:20 PM)

IMHO, on the second screenshot german losses are to low. 6 man when attacking a swamp? Even with GS they lost only 6 man...

Also 16:1 is way too much. If soviets had enough toe and ammo it should be retreat at maximum.

On the other hand i am playing as an axis vs AI I am not able to route soviets. Maximum retreats.



AlbertN -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/5/2021 10:48:18 PM)

Frankly one sees just the 'destroyed' pieces. But an amount of casualties are in fact 'damage'.
Like an Infantry Squad is 10 soldiers. If the Infantry Squad is elimited it's 10 dead. If it is 1-9 deads it is just damaged I assume.

That is why many have distorted view of 'German victories' as of now.

As I am sure after one combat of that type these 2 German divisions dropped their nominal CV by an amount - part of it due to fatigue, but part of it due to an amount of Ground Elements simply damaged.



IDGBIA -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/5/2021 11:09:11 PM)

in the example of that second screenshot the 6 dead is because the only destroyed element was an infantry gun and its crew the damaged elements for Germany were only 12 total, 7 rifle squads and a few various mortars guns, fatigue is still a factor ofc but seems to have little impact on the ability of artillery to disrupt masses of soviets, soviets lose entire formations(beyond just the losses that formation suffered enough damage that if it fought again it would stop existing on a rout) and all the Germans lose is some ammo and get a bit tired



Erik Rutins -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/6/2021 1:44:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: IDGBIA
How is this out of context, these are screenshots showing the exact complaint that soviet units simply don't behave how you'd expect them too in the current patch and inflict close to no losses on German units even in supposedly good terrain. zovs is ignoring context within the screenshot itself, saying its an unsupported rifle division when it has 4 support elements present and claiming the German leadership is better in this case when Wiktorin is 4 morale 6 inf 5 initiative giving him only a slight advantage due to soviet command maluses and lack of corp level. you ignore the context that this is a battle soviets should at least do some damage in and not totally disintegrate with only a single plucky rifle squad managing to hit anything at all. You say there are factors involved in battle that are being overlooked but that seems to simply not be the case, the only factor that matters right now is how much German artillery joins the battle and how many soviet elements are present to maybe stand a chance of not being 90% disrupted everything else only impacts not if you'll lose but how much. the Soviet union is unintuitive and frustrating to play and to appeal to history for a moment, German infantry was significantly weakened clearing pockets during Barbarossa, while currently in game they assaults soviets in harsh terrain with close to no losses or damage, the disruption means German combat power simply doesn't degrade or slow down walking forward and deliberating turn after turn routing soviet units aslong as the artillery joins.


The question I would as is the following: Is the battle you showed entirely historically plausible for August 1941? Yes, I'd say it is, though every battle result should not be the same as that. The WITE2 system has always been designed to show the entire breadth of possible results, so picking one battle and showing it is not really useful unless you start seeing that for all battles. Watching many battles over the course of a campaign and seeing how that compares to history (and to the types of results seen in WITE) is much more helpful.

Every change to the game requires a ton of supporting data to help guide it and a ton more to test it, to make sure that the end result both at the micro and macro level is realistic. It's a very complex system designed by people who do know military history and have decades of experience trying to bring the Eastern Front to life in a wargame. We'll keep listening and tweaking as needed, but we're looking at much more than just individual battles in order to do that.

Regards,

- Erik




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