RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (Full Version)

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ShaggyHiK -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/7/2021 10:31:10 AM)

If we analyze the moves from a strategic point of view, then the German army almost does not suffer losses during hostilities organized by man. The basis of Germany's losses is logistic losses. Which almost do not depend on the actions of a person on the Soviet side and only partly depend on the actions of the German player himself. Of course, I am somewhat generalizing here. It is always possible to try to carry out a series of successful attacks for the USSR and inflict significant local losses on the German troops, but against the general background this will still be a fairly low level of losses.



xhoel -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/7/2021 10:48:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK

But notice the reasoning about experienced generals you give on the basis that during the war the German generals received experience in military operations, since you admit such an argument, I conclude that you do not take into account the receipt of a similar experience in the USSR. And only German generals learned how to conduct hostilities in that war. The rest, as they started the war, did not get any further experience.



True, I retract that. Ofc the Soviets also received plenty of experience from the war and the Soviet military improved a lot as time went by. I am simply saying that most German generals have better stats than the Soviets and that helps with battle rolls. Since you agree with me there and I already retracted my comment I feel like we can move on from this point.


quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK
Moreover, note that you are arguing with two different people in your argumentation. I criticize your screenshots in relation to mine. If you give an example where the German division 90% TOE with support in the form of artillery regiments and / or AT regiments or similar support units does not inflict damage on the Soviet one. It will be very interesting for everyone to see this.


I know. My initial argument was to Game3r not to you, but you replied to it so I replied to you as well. I cannot give you that example right now since like I said in 1945 the Germans simply do not have such units to commit. I am sure that I can find examples of "good" German units being heavily hit by the Soviets to the point of disintegration and with the Soviets taking very few losses in the process.

This is even more of a problem in the later war since the number difference plays a big role. A good German division, entrenched in a level 3 fort will be pounded to dust by a multitude of Soviet Rifle Corps and will be rendered combat incapable. I saw quite a few late war AARs while the game was going through development and I have seen the damage that the Soviet Army can do.

It is not as toothless as you say it is and can inflict some serious damage on the Germans.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK

If we analyze the moves from a strategic point of view, then the German army almost does not suffer losses during hostilities organized by man. The basis of Germany's losses is logistic losses. Which almost do not depend on the actions of a person on the Soviet side and only partly depend on the actions of the German player himself. Of course, I am somewhat generalizing here. It is always possible to try to carry out a series of successful attacks for the USSR and inflict significant local losses on the German troops, but against the general background this will still be a fairly low level of losses.


Cant say I agree with you. Like I said, every battle slowly drains the German forces and after 17 weeks of constant combat the German Divisions will be on the lower end of TOE. Couple that with the logistics system, the bad weather, the lack of depots and lower manpower and you will have a German Army that is vunerable to counterattacks.






ShaggyHiK -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/7/2021 10:58:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel
Cant say I agree with you. Like I said, every battle slowly drains the German forces and after 17 weeks of constant combat the German Divisions will be on the lower end of TOE. Couple that with the logistics system, the bad weather, the lack of depots and lower manpower and you will have a German Army that is vunerable to counterattacks.


The German army is depleted to a lesser extent by the fighting and to a greater extent by the logistic phase, especially in the early stages. The culmination of this is the winter period.



xhoel -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/7/2021 11:19:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK

The German army is depleted to a lesser extent by the fighting and to a greater extent by the logistic phase, especially in the early stages. The culmination of this is the winter period.


I think it is a combination of both and yes the culmination is reached during the first winter.



IDGBIA -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/7/2021 2:19:39 PM)

The kind of concentration isn't actually that difficult to do at all. All you need is 3 corps with commanders with around 7-8 initiative (a reasonably common number for Germany as they have 49 leaders with these numbers) with 6 artillery units each or the possibility to receive 6 artillery units each which is not that hard as arty can teleport across the whole front in a turn from higher commands and Hqs can move up to 50mps (25 if you want to move them back where they started)

The ammo use is not that prohibitive either inf divisions seem to use around 100 ammo per deliberate attack while artillery battalions use 4 so 4x18 that's 72, still less than a single division for a huge effect

This is in heavy snow on average roads against a full toe and morale guards rifle corp and while it doesnt rout it still retreats inflicting very few casualties, the damage isnt very high either

and this is in Dec 42 after the first German morale drop

this is exaggerated from the general point of artillery being too strong but the main point being what is soviet supposed to do? you can have a level 3 fort on every tile all the way from Smolensk to Moscow. Terrain other than urban doesnt seem to stop the disruption so your only defense is to put enough men on each tile to not have them all disrupted and Germany outnumbers you on the front in the early war so if he decides to do this what do you do other than just accept that none of your men will ever fire a shot before losing the tile.

At the very least this contradicts the advice of having streamlined commands and limiting the number of hqs in each battle, why would you let a -6% malus bother you when you can get up to 6 more devastating artillery battalions in the combat

[image]local://upfiles/82525/1648B522D7204311A32814A448720B43.gif[/image]



AlbertN -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/7/2021 2:49:05 PM)

I am sorry but this is -1- battle of the whole front.
If the Germans want to concentrate their assets (and 18 Artillery SU are a LOT), and mixing troops from 3 AKs of the same Army too, etc.
It is not exactly something replicable all across the frontline.
That to me represents a point of effort.

Said that I think - and forwarded already - I favored the Admin Point cost to migrate SUs around and the like. But that is an abandoned design from WITE1.

On the other hand Soviets can teleport units from map to reserve and then from reserve to map without taking rail usage - ontop of being able to shuffle SU around in the same way as Germans.




loki100 -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/7/2021 2:53:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: IDGBIA

The kind of concentration isn't actually that difficult to do at all. All you need is 3 corps with commanders with around 7-8 initiative (a reasonably common number for Germany as they have 49 leaders with these numbers) with 6 artillery units each or the possibility to receive 6 artillery units each which is not that hard as arty can teleport across the whole front in a turn from higher commands and Hqs can move up to 50mps (25 if you want to move them back where they started) ...


well this isn't how the SU system works over a matter of turns - which I suspect you know. But you are using 590 guns in this attack, looking at a mid Feb 43 turn the Germans have 1,300 guns in their SUs so this concentrates something like 35% of them in the same battle.

Thats an impressive concentration that gets an impressive result

so what do we have, there is a massive reward for the axis player if they pull off a very specific allocation, they win one battle dramatically. In the meantime the rest of the front has limited artillery and is very vulnerable to a Soviet riposte



jubjub -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/7/2021 2:57:25 PM)

quote:

what is soviet supposed to do?


Attack?

But really, the Soviets have so many options besides building lvl 3 forts and playing WWI sim. Why are you so hung up about singular Soviet defensive battles?



IDGBIA -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/7/2021 3:19:47 PM)

Germany wont be able to do this on the whole front but soviet also wont have full toe 60 xp and morale Guard corps under some of their best leaders on the whole front either.

German artillery is just as powerful defensively as offensively so I don't feel attacking is an option it will only soften you up to rout next turn. Maybe there is something I'm missing so I would love to hear some of the other options soviet has because the only option I see right now is to hope Germany forgets he has 14 arty locked in a hq somewhere that he's not using or try dive cav behind him to hit his hqs and disrupt logistics

the 5 corp megazord is unrealistic but I think an intentional 3 corp overlap is very doable in an actual game infact I'm doing it in my 41 HVH game right now and getting good results with soviets being almost entirely disrupted and sometimes not even damaging or destroying a single element even on supposedly good terrain like heavy woods or swamps.

if you are for example trying to push towards Moscow then you probably will have 3 corp in a similar area with 6 artillery in each so why not intentionally overlap them even if its just 2 corp near each other with 3 arty in each because that's all you had for that area, if you're going to attack with 2 divisions why not intentionally overlap them to get the artillery support from both instead of just one. you could even split 1 divison into reigments and put it under 3 different nearby corp to get more guns. as I've previously said the ammo use per battalion is significantly lower than the use of a whole infantry division in a deliberate so the logistical strain isn't that great and again the artillery support can teleport and hqs can move 50MP the concentration can appear all in 1 turn for no ap cost.



loki100 -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/7/2021 3:52:27 PM)

I'm sorry but you are now not being very realistic in your claims.

The attack has something like 33% of the German artillery SUs, so feasibly the Germans could have 3 of them in a turn. In response, the rest of the front is dependent on organic divisional assets. So yes, artillery fires defensively - if its there.

And no artillery support does not move around as you are claiming to try and make your argument work.

All you're showing is the game engine rightly rewards an axis player who constructs an extreme allocation of their assets.



ShaggyHiK -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/7/2021 4:09:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

I'm sorry but you are now not being very realistic in your claims.

The attack has something like 33% of the German artillery SUs, so feasibly the Germans could have 3 of them in a turn. In response, the rest of the front is dependent on organic divisional assets. So yes, artillery fires defensively - if its there.

And no artillery support does not move around as you are claiming to try and make your argument work.

All you're showing is the game engine rightly rewards an axis player who constructs an extreme allocation of their assets.

At the beginning of the year 41, the Player in the USSR has only 10 AT-Brigades. Is the USSR player rewarded if they use all 33% of the brigades in some direction?
Why when you talk about rewarding a player for using his SU chips when the same doesn't work for the player on the opposite side? The Soviet player does not receive a special reward if a large number of anti-tank guns or artillery regiments are used in a battle at once.



jubjub -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/7/2021 4:57:29 PM)

quote:

German artillery is just as powerful defensively as offensively so I don't feel attacking is an option it will only soften you up to rout next turn. Maybe there is something I'm missing so I would love to hear some of the other options soviet has because the only option I see right now is to hope Germany forgets he has 14 arty locked in a hq somewhere that he's not using or try dive cav behind him to hit his hqs and disrupt logistics


Once you're on the offensive, the key is to make sustained attacks in one sector. The other key is to attack where the Germans aren't well supplied, so you need to recon for their FBD's while planning your attack. German ID's can't withstand repeated attacks, and neither can the German supply network.

If you attack a German infantry division with 100k men and get within closing range, the ID will expend >50% of their ammo, lose 1/3-1/2 of their rifle squads, and dramatically weaken, even if they hold. This is significantly exacerbated if they aren't near a depot with stored freight. They usually can't hold a second attack if they're poorly supplied. Once they retreat, the reduction in ammo, manpower, morale and CPP is usually enough to reduce them to 1-3 CV.

Each infantry division consumes 250+ tons of freight when attacked in this way. A motorized/panzer division will consume about 500 tons by itself. If you run 6 large attacks like this, it adds up at least 1,500 tons of freight being consumed - usually much more. A depot supplying 10 divisions locally will have to supply this freight and replacements, in addition to the base supply freight (800 tons). Additionally, once you get momentum, they may have to transport divisions to the area by train, further reducing the amount of freight available. If they don't have a super depot, their freight will quickly run dry. You can also bomb the nearest railyard to oblivion if you have local air superiority.

Do this enough in one area, and you may be able to create a large breakthrough, cut an important rail line, or achieve some other operational or strategic victory.

Another option is to attack the Axis Allies. You can also lure the Germans into a low supply salient and counter attack them. Soviets have lots of options.



IDGBIA -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/7/2021 4:59:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

I'm sorry but you are now not being very realistic in your claims.

The attack has something like 33% of the German artillery SUs, so feasibly the Germans could have 3 of them in a turn. In response, the rest of the front is dependent on organic divisional assets. So yes, artillery fires defensively - if its there.

And no artillery support does not move around as you are claiming to try and make your argument work.

All you're showing is the game engine rightly rewards an axis player who constructs an extreme allocation of their assets.


axis has 124 GERMAN artillery assets on the map in 41 and 104 right at the start of Stalingrad to berlin
so I suppose 18 out of 104-124 is something like 33% not exactly but in a similar ballpark you know like how 21 and 12 are very similar numbers


You can send artillery to okw and then out to any corp on the map in 2 turns total, you can do that after your attacks for that turn so you can still use it offensively. you can set the support level on the corp to 0 so the artillery flows back up the chain in your logistics phase ready to be deployed again anywhere on the next turn and crucially after the soviet turn. or you can just move the hq up to 25 or 50 if you don't mind it not getting back where its supposed to be. 25 mps of admin movement can get you a distance like Orel to Kharkov and you only need to make it within 10 rg of the corp you want to deliver the artillery too so even if your hq isn't full movement you can move artillery a pretty large distance a turn but I suppose it does take fatigue from moving when its in the actual hq(it takes none in the last 10 tile teleport).

I don't think this is the game engine rewarding extremes allocation of forces I think this is the game engine making that allocation very easy and preferable to a more sensible command structure by allowing you to easily bypass the 6 support unit per hq limit, a limit that I'm sure was there for a reason and isnt supposed to be bypassed with just a -6% cv malus. and to relate this back to complaining about soviets like a baby for a moment, the soviet command overlap malus is higher and soviet artillery is significantly weaker leaving the megazord as a Germany only wonder weapon and if that's WAD why doesn't axis just have a special rule to have more support units join?

This all relates back to the initial major complaint about playing soviet right now, its counter intuitive offensively you're limited because of artillery, less forces and a need to build defence in depth and fortify so you can hold defensively, this also limits use of assaults hqs since not being able to fortify beyond level 1 hurts alot. Defensively you're similarly limited, terrain offers no protection from disruption so you need alot of troops in one place to fire back and hurt any Germans at all and forts only seems to begin to lower disruption at lv 3 based on my testing so playing soviet sort of just feels like you sit there and hope Germany runs out of mps and doesn't rout you too much. I think you can sort of see this in a few of AARs in the current patch, Leningrad is a much softer nut to crack with the artillery change making terrain less of a crutch than it was and it sort of just feels wrong axis can push basically anything and not just that but they can do it with exceptionally low casualties, I dont want to win every battle but it would be nice to actually damage Germany when he attacks harsh terrain with an actually prepared soviet unit instead of just fatigue and using up his movement points

but then again maybe me and everyone else complaining are just bad and should stick to playing vs ai



Sir.Arnold -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/7/2021 5:35:00 PM)

The only way to convince German players that the Soviet Union really lacks playability is to let them play back to the Soviet Union (against expert players)

Then they will know what the Soviet players are talking about
And how ignorant they are of the Soviet Union in 1941

Look at how ignorant they are. "Build a level 3 fortress". It is extremely difficult for the Soviet Union to build a level 3 fortress in 41 years. Even if they do, they are only a few hex. Germany can encircle or attack

If Germany concentrated SU units in 1941 or 1942, you can launch a "counterattack" in other regions. I suggest that the people who proposed this idea really play with the Soviet Union in 1941, and then they will find how ridiculous it is

WHY?

Because in 1941, even without SU, the German infantry division could block the attack of six Soviet infantry divisions as long as the TOE was more than 50%, because the artillery of the German infantry division was enough to disrupt a large part of the Soviet troops

The Soviet army had a large number of artillery, so the Soviet army could concentrate artillery "attack"
Sadly, due to the ridiculous limitation of Soviet artillery ammunition, you will find that your artillery efficiency is only 10%-20% of the Germans in the offensive, and the German artillery may only be 25% or less of yours. Can disrupt your troops a lot and kill your troops a lot, but the Soviet Union can’t.

I really recommend that all German players use the Soviet Union against human Germany several times in 1941.



xhoel -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/7/2021 5:39:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sir.Arnold

Then they will know what the Soviet players are talking about
And how ignorant they are of the Soviet Union in 1941

Look at how ignorant they are.



Ah yes, we are all idiots who have no idea what we are talking about! Such good faith discussion, keep it up!



821Bobo -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/7/2021 5:41:00 PM)

I will happily take the Soviets and play a game with you Sir.Arnold.



Sir.Arnold -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/7/2021 5:52:45 PM)

Finally, I said to the production team,

Adjust the artillery HE hit rate for each terrain and cancel the inexplicable ammunition restrictions of the Soviet artillery

There is no reason, swamps, rough, and heavy woods are efficient as Clear.

There is no reason. The Soviet artillery has enough ammunition, even just a few HEX away from the depot, it just can’t fire 100%.

I know some people will say assault front

But to be honest, really fatal was that Soviet artillery could not 100% fire during defense

Originally, morale and experience caused Germany to be 5 times more efficient than Soviet artillery, but the limitation of Soviet artillery ammunition resulted in a difference of more than 10 times in actual efficiency

Please consider this suggestion



Sir.Arnold -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/7/2021 5:58:50 PM)

If it is necessary to adjust the artillery in version 1.01.15, then at least make the terrain more efficient, which is good for both sides

And cancel the Soviet ammunition restriction, because the artillery has changed greatly after version 1.01.15. You guys are based on this restriction before this version, which needs to be changed

I think both of my proposals are very reasonable

I’m a little tired to discuss, and I’ve been under pressure recently at work. Please forgive me if there is any inappropriate language.



Thogode -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/7/2021 6:01:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sir.Arnold

Then they will know what the Soviet players are talking about
And how ignorant they are of the Soviet Union in 1941

Look at how ignorant they are.



Ah yes, we are all idiots who have no idea what we are talking about! Such good faith discussion, keep it up!


Compared with other Matrix forums, i.e. WitPAE, this forum is a quite unpleasant place.
Even the most simple question ends in a "Holy War".



Sir.Arnold -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/7/2021 6:05:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Thogode


quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sir.Arnold

Then they will know what the Soviet players are talking about
And how ignorant they are of the Soviet Union in 1941

Look at how ignorant they are.



Ah yes, we are all idiots who have no idea what we are talking about! Such good faith discussion, keep it up!


Compared with other Matrix forums, i.e. WitPAE, this forum is a quite unpleasant place.
Even the most simple question ends in a "Holy War".



I don't want to argue any more. Wait for the next version to adjust



loki100 -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/7/2021 6:05:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sir.Arnold

...
Then they will know what the Soviet players are talking about
And how ignorant they are of the Soviet Union in 1941

....

I really recommend that all German players use the Soviet Union against human Germany several times in 1941.


if you want to convince people I really suggest keep it polite - that really should not need to be written out.

Since I have played the Soviets (both HtH and vs AI) far more than the Axis I do know what I'm talking about

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thogode
...

Compared with other Matrix forums, i.e. WitPAE, this forum is a quite unpleasant place.
Even the most simple question ends in a "Holy War".



depressingly all too true and there is no need or justification for it



Sir.Arnold -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/7/2021 6:17:12 PM)

Please forgive me if there is any inappropriate language

anyway I don't want to argue any more. Wait for the next version to adjust



Joel Billings -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/7/2021 6:30:01 PM)

Yes, please let's all keep it civil. We are looking into this. There were changes made to combat that increased the disruption caused by indirect fire. It's not hard to tweak it back, but we need to run some tests to see how that interacts with all of the other combat changes that were made. It's possible a quick change will be made, and it's also possible that it will take longer to make adjustments. Fundamentally we agree that the disruptions from indirect fire have gone up too much, but by how much, and determining what other things may need tweaking requires some time. Even then, it will take actual game results to have a better sense of things. Such is the life of tweaking a monster game.



Sir.Arnold -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/7/2021 6:30:23 PM)

All in all, this is just a game, not real history

Instead of focusing on quarreling, I intend to use it to make money and make my real life better

Wish you a good life



Sir.Arnold -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/7/2021 6:36:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Yes, please let's all keep it civil. We are looking into this. There were changes made to combat that increased the disruption caused by indirect fire. It's not hard to tweak it back, but we need to run some tests to see how that interacts with all of the other combat changes that were made. It's possible a quick change will be made, and it's also possible that it will take longer to make adjustments. Fundamentally we agree that the disruptions from indirect fire have gone up too much, but by how much, and determining what other things may need tweaking requires some time. Even then, it will take actual game results to have a better sense of things. Such is the life of tweaking a monster game.


I have also participated in making game mod in my spare time, so I can understand your feelings

Adjusting the game mechanism is a very troublesome thing



Gam3r -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/7/2021 8:23:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel

Because even in 1945 German units will usually have morale at around 55-65 and similar experience. Moreover motorized German units will have morale of around 65-76 depending on unit type. Add to that good commanders that had all war to hone their craft and a LW that still can pack a punch.


Aside from artificial game mechanics. There is no such thing as morale or leader rating IRL.

You show day 2 that invalisate my point. My point is: we have defenders ready for defence and attackers ready to attack for 41 and 45. And while VtB looks OK, Typhoon results in too many losses for Soviets IMO.

You cannot destroy 100% TOE in one assault. MAYBE that true for People Milita, but not for regular RD.

What game doesnot model is: any ROUT and most RETREAT for soviet RD in 41 result in loss for 100% their heavy GUNS like ML-20. And infantrymen are useles without their guns as proved by PM TOE.

The reason behind this - lack of a fast moving gun carriers. The tractors move slower than walk speed


this one actually: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-65_Stalinets





Gam3r -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/7/2021 8:38:23 PM)

From an actual game


So you sayng that cv 68 attacking cv 65 in a prepared defence position, forced to cross the river. Still results in a rout?

I wonder how they dont lose 80% of their TOE as usuall...


Thouse Br-5 were preregistered to fire on a river crossing, that might be a costly attack for the Germans even if they managed to take ground

[image]local://upfiles/78197/9FD9C1310F5C453984786EB5584FA056.jpg[/image]



IDGBIA -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/10/2021 3:32:13 AM)

I've done some battles in the new patch and artillery disruption now seems much lower and also seems to be impacted by terrain, so all of my complains are basically addressed soviet units now seem to get the chance to fire back a bit and with lower disruptions and terrain seems to matter more. it is possible this swings things too far back in the other direction with Germany possibly getting more bogged down and killing less but It seems ok to me and I haven't tested the potency of German defensive artillery so its hard to tell if has made the axis too weak or returned them to a sensible level were they cant simply deliberate everything and win with artillery.

and with artillery nerfed the utility of the megazord is sadly diminished.



Stamb -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/10/2021 8:34:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gam3r

From an actual game


So you sayng that cv 68 attacking cv 65 in a prepared defence position, forced to cross the river. Still results in a rout?

I wonder how they dont lose 80% of their TOE as usuall...


Thouse Br-5 were preregistered to fire on a river crossing, that might be a costly attack for the Germans even if they managed to take ground

[image]local://upfiles/78197/9FD9C1310F5C453984786EB5584FA056.jpg[/image]

why wouldn't you update to a latest patch but still using .06? Artillery was the strongest at that point.



Yogol -> RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now (12/10/2021 8:57:30 AM)

All other things aside...

1. Is it optimal to assign the SP-artillery to individual divisions or to the corps HQ?

2. If I put 6 artillery, 3 flammpanzers and 6 anti-tank units in a HQ, how is it decided which 6 are selected in a fight? The highest combat value first? The highest morale?

3. If I put 30 SUs on a corps HQ, I know that maximum 18 are used against heavy urban. How does this go? Will it take 18 SUs and if 3 fail their checks, only 15 participate? Or will it keep doing checks until it has 18?



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