RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. (Full Version)

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Yaab -> RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. (1/18/2022 8:01:42 PM)

I hoped he would do the part two "This is how I uninstall the WITP:AE".




Maallon -> RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. (1/18/2022 8:03:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

I hoped he would do the part two "This is how I uninstall the WITP:AE".

There is no such thing Yaab, you are not allowed to leave once you are inside. [:)]




RangerJoe -> RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. (1/18/2022 8:07:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Maallon


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

I hoped he would do the part two "This is how I uninstall the WITP:AE".

There is no such thing Yaab, you are not allowed to leave once you are inside. [:)]


The game is like "Hotel California" where you can check out but never leave . . . [8D]




tolsdorff -> RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. (1/18/2022 8:11:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Maallon


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

I hoped he would do the part two "This is how I uninstall the WITP:AE".

There is no such thing Yaab, you are not allowed to leave once you are inside. [:)]



I have uninstalled WITPAE 100's of times by now over the last 10 years. Deleted every trace of it from my laptop countless times.
And yet, somehow, this afternoon I looked an it... is... still... there....




Yaab -> RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. (1/18/2022 8:15:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maallon


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

I hoped he would do the part two "This is how I uninstall the WITP:AE".

There is no such thing Yaab, you are not allowed to leave once you are inside. [:)]


And this forum is the Spessart Inn. It's a trap!

Jokes aside, AFAIK the WITP:AE doesn't have the option to uninstall. I have always uninstalled it via Revo or U-Obit software.




tolsdorff -> RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. (1/18/2022 8:32:29 PM)

There is a native WITPAE uninstaller in the 'C:/Windows/War in the pacific AE' directory. Works perfectly.




Yaab -> RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. (1/18/2022 8:39:19 PM)

I tried using it for my first uninstall many years ago and it didn't work. Maybe something was wrong with my computer setup. Anyway, I have always used third party software ever since.




warspite1 -> RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. (1/18/2022 8:59:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: actrade

I don't have the "hashmarks" to comment on who posts what, but I will single out Trugrit for the single best post (IMHO) for new players on this forum.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4916799

I have this one bookmarked on my browser and refer to it more often than I want to admit. THIS, gentlemen, is the example we should all follow in welcoming and helping new players to this wonderful, albeit somewhat difficult undertaking the game can be just to set up.


warspite1

Hi actrade. You want to mention Trugrit for his help. No problem. But why did you have to include his post attacking me. That attack would be over the line going forward and doesn't show Trugrit in the positive fashion your post is meant to.

Can I respectfully ask that you remove his comment in your post 210 please? Thank-you in advance.




Lokasenna -> RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. (1/18/2022 9:09:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

Right off the bat, Alfred's tone was "look at this idiot." It was extremely offputting to be told this, when it was, in fact, not at all what I was doing:


So now you are putting an attitude to his tone. He was merely trying to help and in fact was giving good advice to make sure that the correct air unit went onto the preferred ship.

The "golden idol" and "forum golden boy" were also unnecessary name calling as well.

In fact, if you read from other posters, they were happy to receive the information given and not just from Alfred. That way, they did not have to ask the same questions themselves. What is a problem is when someone posts a question, did not like the answer given, then shortly afterwards will ask the same thing only it is slightly reworded. To me, it appears that you developed an attitude fairly quickly . . .




It's not name-calling, it's a characterization of the (prevailing) attitudes and perceptions. You're also trying to create a distinction between attitude and tone, by all appearances because we've never gotten along. Come to think of it, I'm not sure why I bother responding to you at all. It's rarely worthwhile.




Lokasenna -> RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. (1/18/2022 9:12:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Trugrit


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

Here a bit more about the Derby crap:

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=533379

Rex Brynnen said:

"Several of the largest organizations of professional wargamers (that is, those who run serious games on national security issues in government, think tanks, etc) have recent endorsed the Derby House Principles on diversity and inclusion in professional wargaming: link

These are not aimed at hobby gaming, but I thought they might be of interest in that they represent emerging best practice on the professional side."

He also says these "rules" were made by someone in UK MoD

I am guessing MG needs to enforce this as they are also in "professional" wargaming business:

https://pro.matrixgames.com

(scroll a bit down to find their partners)





The Derby Principles are not crap. They are a good set of principles that we all should follow.

They are political not by what is inclusive but what is left out (exclusive)

The Derby Principles say this:
“No one should ever feel excluded or less welcome because of gender, ethnicity, religion, disability, or background.”

Gender
ethnicity
religion
disability
background.

What is missing from this set of principles? I think the word would be creed.

https://www.rt.com/usa/474499-political-discrimination-colors-hiring-study/

Because gaming is not just about online forums and games.
Wargamers play in person or in clubs.

Creed would be easy to add to the Derby Principles.




Hear hear.

And for the record, I substantively disagree with Trugrit on a lot of stuff.




witpqs -> RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. (1/18/2022 9:37:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: Trugrit


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

Here a bit more about the Derby crap:

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=533379

Rex Brynnen said:

"Several of the largest organizations of professional wargamers (that is, those who run serious games on national security issues in government, think tanks, etc) have recent endorsed the Derby House Principles on diversity and inclusion in professional wargaming: link

These are not aimed at hobby gaming, but I thought they might be of interest in that they represent emerging best practice on the professional side."

He also says these "rules" were made by someone in UK MoD

I am guessing MG needs to enforce this as they are also in "professional" wargaming business:

https://pro.matrixgames.com

(scroll a bit down to find their partners)





The Derby Principles are not crap. They are a good set of principles that we all should follow.

They are political not by what is inclusive but what is left out (exclusive)

The Derby Principles say this:
“No one should ever feel excluded or less welcome because of gender, ethnicity, religion, disability, or background.”

Gender
ethnicity
religion
disability
background.

What is missing from this set of principles? I think the word would be creed.

https://www.rt.com/usa/474499-political-discrimination-colors-hiring-study/

Because gaming is not just about online forums and games.
Wargamers play in person or in clubs.

Creed would be easy to add to the Derby Principles.




Hear hear.

And for the record, I substantively disagree with Trugrit on a lot of stuff.

Guys, creed means religion or such a belief system.




RangerJoe -> RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. (1/18/2022 10:56:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

Right off the bat, Alfred's tone was "look at this idiot." It was extremely offputting to be told this, when it was, in fact, not at all what I was doing:


So now you are putting an attitude to his tone. He was merely trying to help and in fact was giving good advice to make sure that the correct air unit went onto the preferred ship.

The "golden idol" and "forum golden boy" were also unnecessary name calling as well.

In fact, if you read from other posters, they were happy to receive the information given and not just from Alfred. That way, they did not have to ask the same questions themselves. What is a problem is when someone posts a question, did not like the answer given, then shortly afterwards will ask the same thing only it is slightly reworded. To me, it appears that you developed an attitude fairly quickly . . .


It's not name-calling, it's a characterization of the (prevailing) attitudes and perceptions. You're also trying to create a distinction between attitude and tone, by all appearances because we've never gotten along. Come to think of it, I'm not sure why I bother responding to you at all. It's rarely worthwhile.


It was and is name calling. But because you are doing it that makes it not name calling? It is a characterization of your and some others attitudes and perceptions but it is not inclusive. If you want to find something to offend you, you can easily do so even if there was no offense meant or even perceived by others.

Come to think of it, Alfred did not use the term "idiot" at all in reference to you in that post or thread.




BBfanboy -> RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. (1/18/2022 11:09:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

Right off the bat, Alfred's tone was "look at this idiot." It was extremely offputting to be told this, when it was, in fact, not at all what I was doing:


So now you are putting an attitude to his tone. He was merely trying to help and in fact was giving good advice to make sure that the correct air unit went onto the preferred ship.

The "golden idol" and "forum golden boy" were also unnecessary name calling as well.

In fact, if you read from other posters, they were happy to receive the information given and not just from Alfred. That way, they did not have to ask the same questions themselves. What is a problem is when someone posts a question, did not like the answer given, then shortly afterwards will ask the same thing only it is slightly reworded. To me, it appears that you developed an attitude fairly quickly . . .


It's not name-calling, it's a characterization of the (prevailing) attitudes and perceptions. You're also trying to create a distinction between attitude and tone, by all appearances because we've never gotten along. Come to think of it, I'm not sure why I bother responding to you at all. It's rarely worthwhile.


It was and is name calling. But because you are doing it that makes it not name calling? It is a characterization of your and some others attitudes and perceptions but it is not inclusive. If you want to find something to offend you, you can easily do so even if there was no offense meant or even perceived by others.

Come to think of it, Alfred did not use the term "idiot" at all in reference to you in that post or thread.

C'mon RJ - tone is what the receiver feels it to be, and with words and tone you get "connotation" - the impression of what the speaker is really saying even if the words don't include it. If someone felt that Alfred's brusque tone was saying "they are an idiot", that is valid for them to feel that way whether or not we eavesdroppers feel it is so. The issue is over and done with so please - let's not parse the semantics to find reasons to keep arguing.




RangerJoe -> RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. (1/18/2022 11:18:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

Right off the bat, Alfred's tone was "look at this idiot." It was extremely offputting to be told this, when it was, in fact, not at all what I was doing:


So now you are putting an attitude to his tone. He was merely trying to help and in fact was giving good advice to make sure that the correct air unit went onto the preferred ship.

The "golden idol" and "forum golden boy" were also unnecessary name calling as well.

In fact, if you read from other posters, they were happy to receive the information given and not just from Alfred. That way, they did not have to ask the same questions themselves. What is a problem is when someone posts a question, did not like the answer given, then shortly afterwards will ask the same thing only it is slightly reworded. To me, it appears that you developed an attitude fairly quickly . . .


It's not name-calling, it's a characterization of the (prevailing) attitudes and perceptions. You're also trying to create a distinction between attitude and tone, by all appearances because we've never gotten along. Come to think of it, I'm not sure why I bother responding to you at all. It's rarely worthwhile.


It was and is name calling. But because you are doing it that makes it not name calling? It is a characterization of your and some others attitudes and perceptions but it is not inclusive. If you want to find something to offend you, you can easily do so even if there was no offense meant or even perceived by others.

Come to think of it, Alfred did not use the term "idiot" at all in reference to you in that post or thread.

C'mon RJ - tone is what the receiver feels it to be, and with words and tone you get "connotation" - the impression of what the speaker is really saying even if the words don't include it. If someone felt that Alfred's brusque tone was saying "they are an idiot", that is valid for them to feel that way whether or not we eavesdroppers feel it is so. The issue is over and done with so please - let's not parse the semantics to find reasons to keep arguing.


Perception is reality . . .

I refused to be bullied . . .




Erik Rutins -> RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. (1/18/2022 11:43:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
Come to think of it, Alfred did not use the term "idiot" at all in reference to you in that post or thread.


He didn't have to. His opinion was very clear. Go back and read the thread Lokasenna shared, starting from here:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3074031

Alfred tells him there's only one way to do this and assigns him homework. Lokasenna thanks him but explains that this is a game and he prefers to play it his way and explains that Alfred's tone is starting to bug him.

Alfred then posts this treatise in response:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3074274

Which includes these lines, all in one post: "You do not know what you are saying for the answers have been provided and yet you continue to ask thoughtless questions which demonstrate a lack of knowledge." "If you really knew what a TOE is and what it represents in this game, you would not again be asking this thoughtless question" "If you really knew anything rather than having an ego that makes you believe you know, you would have been asking what are the conditions necessary for a TOE to change." "Like many with inflated egos, only some of the facts to a problem are presented, and yet the forum is expected to guess the solution without being made privy to all the relevant facts." "It does not behove a newbie to present themselves as lazy, incapable of coping with detail and with an ego that interferes with their understanding of answers given."

Now, I don't know about you, but if someone talked to me like that, I sure wouldn't be saying "thank you". You can correct someone without these kinds of insults and armchair psychoanalysis. Alfred chose the low road.

That was clear to other posters as well, a few posts down Johnjohn asks everyone to cool it and HansBolter agrees that Alfred owes Lokasenna an apology.

I don't understand why some posters are trying to spin this or pretend it's not right there. Alfred was often quite rude when he didn't need to be, period. I guarantee you wouldn't enjoy being on the receiving end of those comments above, RJ.

Regards,

- Erik




BBfanboy -> RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. (1/18/2022 11:44:55 PM)

Sorry if you felt I was bullying you RJ - I just thought you were giving your first response without thinking through what the guys involved in the original dispute must have been feeling. After all, we tend to argue more when our feelings are disturbed.

I have a thick skin and used "fogging" to let Alfred's brusqueness go by so I could consider the good info he provided. Others do not have that skill so they felt insulted. No matter how much anyone thought they deserved it, it is their right to feel that way and Alfred's tone was not the best way to handle the correction of rookie mistakes. So there - I praise Alfred for his knowledge and precision, but do not defend the way he delivers it. I see no need for anyone to take sides as both sides have some valid points which have been well discussed.

Now I'm going to go away and reflect on the times I was annoyed at someone asking about a WITP-AE topic that had already been hashed out multiple times and I was pretty short with them about looking around and seeing if the topic was already raised!

[image]local://upfiles/35791/C88290166F5E4E188CE16426CE3765F4.gif[/image]




Lokasenna -> RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. (1/19/2022 1:22:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Sorry if you felt I was bullying you RJ - I just thought you were giving your first response without thinking through what the guys involved in the original dispute must have been feeling. After all, we tend to argue more when our feelings are disturbed.

I have a thick skin and used "fogging" to let Alfred's brusqueness go by so I could consider the good info he provided. Others do not have that skill so they felt insulted. No matter how much anyone thought they deserved it, it is their right to feel that way and Alfred's tone was not the best way to handle the correction of rookie mistakes. So there - I praise Alfred for his knowledge and precision, but do not defend the way he delivers it. I see no need for anyone to take sides as both sides have some valid points which have been well discussed.

Now I'm going to go away and reflect on the times I was annoyed at someone asking about a WITP-AE topic that had already been hashed out multiple times and I was pretty short with them about looking around and seeing if the topic was already raised!

[image]local://upfiles/35791/C88290166F5E4E188CE16426CE3765F4.gif[/image]


Personally, my response is: "If it's so easy to find, why don't you (as a supposedly helpful veteran forum member) do that easy thing and then explain it to me?"

There's zero reason to respond with something like "use the search function" or "go read my previous posts on the subject." As if (1) the search function worked very well, and without bothering to explain that googling with the correct "site:matrixgames.com/forums(/AE sub-URL)" search parameter gets best results, and (2) ignoring the fact that finding previous posts, in many cases years-old or even simply out of the poster's 100 most recent post, was at all easy.

Repetitive questions should be the easiest to respond to, and the easiest to not respond to with disdain and aggression. A good forum member would link the most recent thread, if it really does come up that often, or help the new member out with a little coaching on how to use a search engine to search the forums for those elusive, allegedly holy posts.




DesertWolf101 -> RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. (1/19/2022 1:35:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Sorry if you felt I was bullying you RJ - I just thought you were giving your first response without thinking through what the guys involved in the original dispute must have been feeling. After all, we tend to argue more when our feelings are disturbed.

I have a thick skin and used "fogging" to let Alfred's brusqueness go by so I could consider the good info he provided. Others do not have that skill so they felt insulted. No matter how much anyone thought they deserved it, it is their right to feel that way and Alfred's tone was not the best way to handle the correction of rookie mistakes. So there - I praise Alfred for his knowledge and precision, but do not defend the way he delivers it. I see no need for anyone to take sides as both sides have some valid points which have been well discussed.

Now I'm going to go away and reflect on the times I was annoyed at someone asking about a WITP-AE topic that had already been hashed out multiple times and I was pretty short with them about looking around and seeing if the topic was already raised!

[image]local://upfiles/35791/C88290166F5E4E188CE16426CE3765F4.gif[/image]


Personally, my response is: "If it's so easy to find, why don't you (as a supposedly helpful veteran forum member) do that easy thing and then explain it to me?"

There's zero reason to respond with something like "use the search function" or "go read my previous posts on the subject." As if (1) the search function worked very well, and without bothering to explain that googling with the correct "site:matrixgames.com/forums(/AE sub-URL)" search parameter gets best results, and (2) ignoring the fact that finding previous posts, in many cases years-old or even simply out of the poster's 100 most recent post, was at all easy.

Repetitive questions should be the easiest to respond to, and the easiest to not respond to with disdain and aggression. A good forum member would link the most recent thread, if it really does come up that often, or help the new member out with a little coaching on how to use a search engine to search the forums for those elusive, allegedly holy posts.


+1

Or if unable to respond as suggested above, simply say nothing. I don't understand why one would get all upset as if they were personally insulted when someone they never even met asks a game related question on a forum, even if that question is 'ignorant'.




RangerJoe -> RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. (1/19/2022 1:37:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Sorry if you felt I was bullying you RJ - I just thought you were giving your first response without thinking through what the guys involved in the original dispute must have been feeling. After all, we tend to argue more when our feelings are disturbed.

I have a thick skin and used "fogging" to let Alfred's brusqueness go by so I could consider the good info he provided. Others do not have that skill so they felt insulted. No matter how much anyone thought they deserved it, it is their right to feel that way and Alfred's tone was not the best way to handle the correction of rookie mistakes. So there - I praise Alfred for his knowledge and precision, but do not defend the way he delivers it. I see no need for anyone to take sides as both sides have some valid points which have been well discussed.

Now I'm going to go away and reflect on the times I was annoyed at someone asking about a WITP-AE topic that had already been hashed out multiple times and I was pretty short with them about looking around and seeing if the topic was already raised!

[image]local://upfiles/35791/C88290166F5E4E188CE16426CE3765F4.gif[/image]


Personally, my response is: "If it's so easy to find, why don't you (as a supposedly helpful veteran forum member) do that easy thing and then explain it to me?"

There's zero reason to respond with something like "use the search function" or "go read my previous posts on the subject." As if (1) the search function worked very well, and without bothering to explain that googling with the correct "site:matrixgames.com/forums(/AE sub-URL)" search parameter gets best results, and (2) ignoring the fact that finding previous posts, in many cases years-old or even simply out of the poster's 100 most recent post, was at all easy.

Repetitive questions should be the easiest to respond to, and the easiest to not respond to with disdain and aggression. A good forum member would link the most recent thread, if it really does come up that often, or help the new member out with a little coaching on how to use a search engine to search the forums for those elusive, allegedly holy posts.


There are these threads which for now some of the information is dated and these would then need to be updated as well but are still useful places to start. I frequently refer new players to these and suggest that they bookmark them . . .

FAQ / Info for Newb's

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2260137

Useful Info for Beginners

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2576157

The second one does have useful information on how to search at the very beginning, besides another thread that was recently bumped as well.




RangerJoe -> RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. (1/19/2022 1:40:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Sorry if you felt I was bullying you RJ - I just thought you were giving your first response without thinking through what the guys involved in the original dispute must have been feeling. After all, we tend to argue more when our feelings are disturbed.

I have a thick skin and used "fogging" to let Alfred's brusqueness go by so I could consider the good info he provided. Others do not have that skill so they felt insulted. No matter how much anyone thought they deserved it, it is their right to feel that way and Alfred's tone was not the best way to handle the correction of rookie mistakes. So there - I praise Alfred for his knowledge and precision, but do not defend the way he delivers it. I see no need for anyone to take sides as both sides have some valid points which have been well discussed.

Now I'm going to go away and reflect on the times I was annoyed at someone asking about a WITP-AE topic that had already been hashed out multiple times and I was pretty short with them about looking around and seeing if the topic was already raised!

[image]local://upfiles/35791/C88290166F5E4E188CE16426CE3765F4.gif[/image]


I was not referring to you, my friend from Big Canada Land who is living on the warm, windswept prairie . . .




DD696 -> RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. (1/19/2022 1:04:48 PM)

In a few days I will be turning 75 years old. This post will serve as an early birthday present to myself.

I started playing war games in 1967, the old Avalon Hill series. Can't remember which was the first. My wife and I met a fella motorcycling from San Francisco to Hobbs, New Mexico to visit relatives and we befriended him. He introduced me to commercially available war games. Previously I had experimented with using road maps and pieces of tape on them to represent military units and attempting to figure out a rudimentary combat system. The best I could come up at the time was that if I had 3 times as many troops in a combat then the opponent had 3 times the causalities inflicted on him.

I have purchased many hundreds of war games over the years, from retail stores such as the local hobby shop in Scottsdale, Arizona to Best Buy to, well, I can't recall the name of the specialty chain stores selling computer games and software. I can say that never once was I denied the ability to purchase a game or prevented from playing it. However, I am male. I am considered white (but I also have an American Heritage ago). Until 1997 I was also under 50. I can say that I have never seen, nor have I ever heard of anyone being denied the ability to purchase a war game - providing to could provide the appropriate money to do so.

For the last 20 plus years internet online sales have become the prime method of purchasing war games. I believe there are 5 companies with whom I have done business, Matrix Games being primary one. When I would purchase a game from Matrix, or any other company, I was never asked if I was male, female, or it. I was never asked as to which racial heritage I claim to be from. I was never asked my age. Now, I'm just taking a wild assed guess here, but I do not believe that Matrix restricts the sales of games they publish to only males, white, and over 50. Now, I could be wrong, only Eric (who seems to be the only remaining representative of good old Matrix Games), for now we have to deal with Slitherine, so the Slitherine folks would really have to confirm this.

Which brings me to this question: Has anyone even been denied to right to purchase a war game based upon your gender, racial heritage, or age? Does any know of anyone who has been denied the right to purchase a war game based upon their gender, racial heritage, or age? Were you, or anyone you know, denied the right to play a war game (other than parents, wives, bosses, company commanders (a military reference))? I can say that my cats have denied me the right to play board games.

Really! Think about that for a bit. Could it possibly be that women choose different hobbies to pursue?

In 2004 I decided to become an active forum member. As I have said elsewhere in this thread, I have not posted very often. These forums are filled with animosity. Back in those early days I became active because of the original War in the Pacific game. I am one who plays against the AI. I remember the never ending harassment because I preferred to play against the AI. I'd make a post and some nitwit would insist that I PBEM. Time after time and time after time....... It got so bad that I finally used as my signature statement "I have not, will not, and will never play a PBEM game". It irritated me to no end. I still refuse to play a PBEM game. Thankfully, over the years AI players are now considered to be grudgingly slightly below equal.

Over the years I have only taken note of 3 self identified women in these forums. Graffin Zeppelin here (she faded away), Rhonda Brown (she sadly passed away), and MrsWargamer (she received a permanent ban). I wish I could say that I never say any harassment of these women, but I did primarily from one current forum member. I am fairly astute at reading certain forums and follow them well.

She was permanently banned by Eric. My thinking on this matter was that there was a failure to fully understand what led her to get so angry that she would defy Eric in the manner in which she did. Which brings us to the current forum member, very active in these forums, and this thread. He has perfected the art to baiting people to the point at which they finally have had enough and lash back at this baiter-in-chief. He baited her mercilessly. To me he has attempted to do so repeatedly, one time when he and another member were disparaging my military service by ending one of his baiting tirades saying "but I don't know what your criminal record is".

That is not against forum rules, but it certainly tended to rile the hell out of me. Just yesterday Loksenna (probably misspelled) was the subject of his baiting. I am sure that any forum member who reads here regularly will know who this individual is.

For my early 75th birthday present I am granting myself a more serene, peaceful and less stressful life. It is too short to have to put up with the crap that occurs on a daily basis here. This forum has been a good source of knowledge, but when the cost of acquiring that knowledge is to have your dignity degraded and your character attacked, then the cost of that knowledge is too high.

Semper Fi.




Erik Rutins -> RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. (1/19/2022 1:18:05 PM)

Hi DD696,

Thanks for your support over the years.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DD696
Now, I'm just taking a wild assed guess here, but I do not believe that Matrix restricts the sales of games they publish to only males, white, and over 50. Now, I could be wrong, only Eric (who seems to be the only remaining representative of good old Matrix Games), for now we have to deal with Slitherine, so the Slitherine folks would really have to confirm this.

Which brings me to this question: Has anyone even been denied to right to purchase a war game based upon your gender, racial heritage, or age? Does any know of anyone who has been denied the right to purchase a war game based upon their gender, racial heritage, or age? Were you, or anyone you know, denied the right to play a war game (other than parents, wives, bosses, company commanders (a military reference))? I can say that my cats have denied me the right to play board games.


Nope, of course we don't deny that and no one to my knowledge has claimed that we do, nor is that part of any of these debates.

quote:

Really! Think about that for a bit. Could it possibly be that women choose different hobbies to pursue?


Of course and that doesn't change the fact that should a woman choose to pursue this hobby, we want her to feel as welcome here as if walking into her local game store. Same goes for a kid who gets a wargame as a present at 10 or 12 years old and comes here for more information.

quote:

I remember the never ending harassment because I preferred to play against the AI. I'd make a post and some nitwit would insist that I PBEM. Time after time and time after time....... It got so bad that I finally used as my signature statement "I have not, will not, and will never play a PBEM game". It irritated me to no end. I still refuse to play a PBEM game. Thankfully, over the years AI players are now considered to be grudgingly slightly below equal.


I'm sorry about that, I didn't realize it was that bad. I'm hoping new players won't have that experience going forward.

quote:

She was permanently banned by Eric. My thinking on this matter was that there was a failure to fully understand what led her to get so angry that she would defy Eric in the manner in which she did.


I know who you're referring to and unfortunately she decided to really seek a permanent ban. As far as I could tell at the time, she was the instigator as often as not - there was trolling by both parties and both received warnings and then temporary bans first. For better or worse, the other party never crossed the line as egregiously as she did in her final public personal attack so he didn't end up permanently banned as she did.

quote:

Which brings us to the current forum member, very active in these forums, and this thread. He has perfected the art to baiting people to the point at which they finally have had enough and lash back at this baiter-in-chief. He baited her mercilessly. To me he has attempted to do so repeatedly, one time when he and another member were disparaging my military service by ending one of his baiting tirades saying "but I don't know what your criminal record is".


You should be aware that said forum member has two recent bans and based on pushing the limits is thus on relatively thin ice compared to the average forum member if forum rules are broken again. I don't like to permanently ban anyone, but folks who work at it do eventually get there.

quote:

For my early 75th birthday present I am granting myself a more serene, peaceful and less stressful life. It is too short to have to put up with the crap that occurs on a daily basis here. This forum has been a good source of knowledge, but when the cost of acquiring that knowledge is to have your dignity degraded and your character attacked, then the cost of that knowledge is too high.


Understood and I'm sorry to hear that you'll be going. If you like, check back in a month or so and see how things are going. I'm hoping we are about to turn over a new page in terms of more civil discussions.

Regards,

- Erik




littleike -> RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. (1/19/2022 2:45:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DD696

In a few days I will be turning 75 years old. This post will serve as an early birthday present to myself.

I started playing war games in 1967, the old Avalon Hill series. Can't remember which was the first. My wife and I met a fella motorcycling from San Francisco to Hobbs, New Mexico to visit relatives and we befriended him. He introduced me to commercially available war games. Previously I had experimented with using road maps and pieces of tape on them to represent military units and attempting to figure out a rudimentary combat system. The best I could come up at the time was that if I had 3 times as many troops in a combat then the opponent had 3 times the causalities inflicted on him.

I have purchased many hundreds of war games over the years, from retail stores such as the local hobby shop in Scottsdale, Arizona to Best Buy to, well, I can't recall the name of the specialty chain stores selling computer games and software. I can say that never once was I denied the ability to purchase a game or prevented from playing it. However, I am male. I am considered white (but I also have an American Heritage ago). Until 1997 I was also under 50. I can say that I have never seen, nor have I ever heard of anyone being denied the ability to purchase a war game - providing to could provide the appropriate money to do so.

For the last 20 plus years internet online sales have become the prime method of purchasing war games. I believe there are 5 companies with whom I have done business, Matrix Games being primary one. When I would purchase a game from Matrix, or any other company, I was never asked if I was male, female, or it. I was never asked as to which racial heritage I claim to be from. I was never asked my age. Now, I'm just taking a wild assed guess here, but I do not believe that Matrix restricts the sales of games they publish to only males, white, and over 50. Now, I could be wrong, only Eric (who seems to be the only remaining representative of good old Matrix Games), for now we have to deal with Slitherine, so the Slitherine folks would really have to confirm this.

Which brings me to this question: Has anyone even been denied to right to purchase a war game based upon your gender, racial heritage, or age? Does any know of anyone who has been denied the right to purchase a war game based upon their gender, racial heritage, or age? Were you, or anyone you know, denied the right to play a war game (other than parents, wives, bosses, company commanders (a military reference))? I can say that my cats have denied me the right to play board games.

Really! Think about that for a bit. Could it possibly be that women choose different hobbies to pursue?

In 2004 I decided to become an active forum member. As I have said elsewhere in this thread, I have not posted very often. These forums are filled with animosity. Back in those early days I became active because of the original War in the Pacific game. I am one who plays against the AI. I remember the never ending harassment because I preferred to play against the AI. I'd make a post and some nitwit would insist that I PBEM. Time after time and time after time....... It got so bad that I finally used as my signature statement "I have not, will not, and will never play a PBEM game". It irritated me to no end. I still refuse to play a PBEM game. Thankfully, over the years AI players are now considered to be grudgingly slightly below equal.

Over the years I have only taken note of 3 self identified women in these forums. Graffin Zeppelin here (she faded away), Rhonda Brown (she sadly passed away), and MrsWargamer (she received a permanent ban). I wish I could say that I never say any harassment of these women, but I did primarily from one current forum member. I am fairly astute at reading certain forums and follow them well.

She was permanently banned by Eric. My thinking on this matter was that there was a failure to fully understand what led her to get so angry that she would defy Eric in the manner in which she did. Which brings us to the current forum member, very active in these forums, and this thread. He has perfected the art to baiting people to the point at which they finally have had enough and lash back at this baiter-in-chief. He baited her mercilessly. To me he has attempted to do so repeatedly, one time when he and another member were disparaging my military service by ending one of his baiting tirades saying "but I don't know what your criminal record is".

That is not against forum rules, but it certainly tended to rile the hell out of me. Just yesterday Loksenna (probably misspelled) was the subject of his baiting. I am sure that any forum member who reads here regularly will know who this individual is.

For my early 75th birthday present I am granting myself a more serene, peaceful and less stressful life. It is too short to have to put up with the crap that occurs on a daily basis here. This forum has been a good source of knowledge, but when the cost of acquiring that knowledge is to have your dignity degraded and your character attacked, then the cost of that knowledge is too high.

Semper Fi.


My very best wishes for your 75 birthday DD696

I made my 74 in last december and i was thinking to be the oldest here!!

So, in the name of the sixties, juke box, rock'n roll, Harley and Triumph, chewing gum, fifteen balls, heavy smoke films, flipper, drive inn and coca cola, (and also some pin up ...with moderation ) stop yourself!!

You are not alone here. [:)]






Zovs -> RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. (1/19/2022 3:11:04 PM)

Likewise I have been playing war games (board at first) since 1978. In all that time I have only met three females that play war games (with regards to games like D&D I have met quite a lot more maybe 10 or so, but I did not play fantasy games much only about two years when I was around 16 to 18). One of those was Mrs Wargamer. The other was a wife a board (both war and non-war) gamer (we used to play ASL, she believe it or not knew and like chapters A and B, infantry and terrain) and she also played a few other board war games with her husband and his friends but if memory serves me, her favorites where Twilight 2000 and Cantata (I think that is how its spelled). The other female war gamer I met was when we used to take our board war games (paper maps and cardboard counters) to a buddy's house and set them up. Back in those days there used to be war game clubs where you'd meet each week to game. I believe that is where I met her. IIRC she was more into miniatures the paper war games.

In contrast to the three females I met I have met, played, seen, conversed with many thousands of men in board war games. I am guessing around 100 or so from Europe, Australia and or Canada, but most from America. Of the at least thousand war gamers I have met or played (face to face or online) I can't recall playing against any Mexicans, Middle Eastern or Africans. I have met and played against a few black folks (I could never get my roommate in the Army to play any of my war games, he was black and we ere good friends, but he never liked my whiskey much and I never liked his gin much, but we still drank, he just thought I was nuts for wanting to play war games when in the Army we did that all the time lol).

So my observations over the years is that:
a) Most war gamers are men
b) Most are white
c) Most have a fair amount of disposable income to waste
d) Most are my age or much older
e) Younger folks just are not interested in learning board war games
f) Younger folks are not much interested in digital war games

These are just my observations and experiences.

I really don't know how you get the bug.

But I was a teenager in the late 70's/early 80's and I remember my mom taking me to various hobby shops in Washington State and also dropping me off at the U of W and playing college kids board war games from SPI and AH back then. However, I'll never forgot the day in 1978 when I had 10 bucks (my months allowance) and walked into the white and green Stadium Hobby shop and pulled out a AH game I never saw before and read the back of the box and was instantly hooked.

"A shot disturbs the eerie silence of a deserted city street, punctuated by the frantic footfalls of men seeking cover. One of Kruger's last veteran nco's lies motionless in the street. The remnants of the dead man's squad are nowhere to be seen - scattered in nearby houses and gutters - all thoughts of the advance abandoned with the sudden demise of their leader...the compulsion for revenge obviously overcome by their instinct for self preservation. Off to the right, Kruger's own men have located the source of the lethal shot and are laying down a steady stream of fire on the church steeple directly ahead. The absence of responding fire suggests that the lone Russian marksman has beat a hasty retreat or been victimized by the withering fire of the German retort. Kruger has seen enough. He is to occupy the church and set up a regimental observation post at once. His orders leave no leeway for delays by a single sniper. He gives the signal to rush the building. Obedient to their training, his men, veterans of France, the Balkans, and 18 months of fighting in Russia, spring to their feet. Seconds later the sharp, staccato retort of a Russian machine gun concludes with the assertiveness of death itself that this time Kruger was wrong..."

This is Squad Leader..."

I have never been the same since that fateful summer day at the ripe old age of 12 but alas the price sticker was $12.50, I had to wait one whole month while I earned my next $10 to purchase that game, praying that it would still be there when I got back. It was. And the rest as they say is history.

...




Erik Rutins -> RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. (1/19/2022 3:24:24 PM)

I'll just note that my wife does also play war and strategy games (though not as much as I do - her recent favorite is a board game called Imperial Struggle) and across the years of going to conventions with our booth and speaking with gamers of all kinds, probably somewhere around 5-10% of those interested in our wargames were women. However, there is a self-fulfilling prophecy aspect to this as well, in that if you are not welcoming to new gamers of whatever type, you will likely not grow your community. It's also the case that a lot of men don't even know about wargaming and even fewer women do, so the more we can do as a company in terms of outreach the more likely we'll find people who never knew this was a possible hobby who might like it.

Its quite possible that even if we are as welcoming as possible, we still end up something like 80/20 male/female as we see even in the very young that there are some differences in innate interests. Still, I think it's worth being as welcoming as we can to all rookie/new wargamers and to potential wargamers of all kinds.

As I said at the start, if you think of this as a wargaming club in your local game store, think about what would be appropriate to put on the walls there or what type of reception the club would expect the regulars to extend to new folks walking in the door and I think we'll be in the same ballpark.

Regards,

- Erik




Wirraway_Ace -> RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. (1/19/2022 4:49:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

But I was a teenager in the late 70's/early 80's and I remember my mom taking me to various hobby shops in Washington State and also dropping me off at the U of W and playing college kids board war games from SPI and AH back then. However, I'll never forgot the day in 1978 when I had 10 bucks (my months allowance) and walked into the white and green Stadium Hobby shop and pulled out a AH game I never saw before and read the back of the box and was instantly hooked.

...

I don't recall the Stadium Hobby shop. On most weekends in 78, I would have been at American Eagles just north of the UW campus, buying GHC micro armor for a game of Tractics while my father bought another Tamiya waterline kit or another Spitfire model. Near the end of his life, he decided to finish all the Spitfire kits he had bought over the years but never finished. There were thirteen.




jwilkerson -> RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. (1/19/2022 4:49:37 PM)

Hi all,

I've been a member here for 19.5 years ... and a MOD on the WITP and then AE forums for 6-7 years (roughly Feb 2006 - Aug 2012) ... my interest has been pretty focused on WITP and AE :D ... outside of that, I've been a historical wargamer for zillions of years. Board games, computer games, miniatures and even role-playing.

When David made me a MOD in 2006, he didn't ask me or even tell me, I woke up one morning and I was a MOD ... and I tried hard to wiggle out of it, but David never relented. He was a good MOD trainer.

If I had an issue, I would PM the person and discuss the matter. I think 9 times out of 10 or 19 or of 20, that solved the issue. MODs didn't have banning powers back in those days ... but in the 6.5 years I was a mod, if I had an serious issue, I would escalate to David and he would make the call. I think 3 people got perm bans and maybe 6 got 1 week bans. So we were pretty "gentle" in those days.

David did tell me his standards for the forum were "Your grandmother should be able to come here and be comfortable". I don't think we always enforced that, but that was the vision.

Of course, I was dedicated to the WITP and AE forums only, so that meant I could get really close to the people in those forums ... I lived there along with them. And that probably helped a lot. Well, I had already been a member of the WITP for 4 years before becoming the MOD.

As Erik said, no one is perfect.

As to females on here. I knew (in the internet sense) RhondaBrn ... and she and I got a little personal for a while (not meaning "romantic personal") but she had an off grid power system and I was building one, so she gave me the benefits of her wisdom regarding design and issues based on her experience. So, I think a female can be successful here, though in general wargaming has been a male activity over most of my history in the hobby. When I go to wargame conventions, there are females there, though in much smaller numbers, unless there is a significant role-playing presents at the con.

Erik's been around a long time here and I trust him to make things right and help us transition to the level of "decency" that David really envisioned for this place from the start. It isn't a new idea.




Treetop64 -> RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. (1/19/2022 9:00:08 PM)

Things are going swimmingly here, apparently.

I vaguely recall making a comment years ago noting the civil and relatively sophisticated behavior of the forum members here, compared to other strategy and gaming rooms. There were spirited disagreements from which came no resolution, compromise, etc. Eventually the parties involved simply agreed to disagree, and moved on with some humor and a change of subject, and that was it.

There was also an air of self-reliance regarding finding answers to questions. Someone asks a question and they're either given an answer or pointed to where they can find the answer. In the latter case that person should then be able to look for and discover the answer for themselves, learning a lot more than they initially bargained for in the process. But responding with the notion that their question instead be answered then and there, simply because they asked it, is annoying. I agree that Alfred could be coarse at times but I always valued his knowledge - though by no means is he the only knowledgeable person in the forums - and whatever objective response you got from him was solid.

I don't know that I'm making a point here. I guess I'm trying so say that I don't want to see this forum descend into the politically correct stupidity we see poisoning our society. Blatantly insulting and deliberately demeaning behavior should not be tolerated. Obviously. But we're all adults here and I think we can handle ourselves in frank discussions over controversial topics, without community enforcement guidelines enabling someone to clamp down on the community because they personally didn't like what was said.




Zovs -> RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. (1/19/2022 10:09:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

But I was a teenager in the late 70's/early 80's and I remember my mom taking me to various hobby shops in Washington State and also dropping me off at the U of W and playing college kids board war games from SPI and AH back then. However, I'll never forgot the day in 1978 when I had 10 bucks (my months allowance) and walked into the white and green Stadium Hobby shop and pulled out a AH game I never saw before and read the back of the box and was instantly hooked.

...

I don't recall the Stadium Hobby shop. On most weekends in 78, I would have been at American Eagles just north of the UW campus, buying GHC micro armor for a game of Tractics while my father bought another Tamiya waterline kit or another Spitfire model. Near the end of his life, he decided to finish all the Spitfire kits he had bought over the years but never finished. There were thirteen.



American Eagles was a blast! We used to meet every Saturday to game. I met John Fernandez (SPI and Micro Armor GHQ) and Charles Sharp (GDW) there.

Stadium was in an old mall (probably gone now, the mall that is) in Lakewood, near the Lakewood Public Library. In the strip mall there was a music store and another store where I found out about SPI and that really opened me up to war games. This was all 1978-83 ish.




Platoonist -> RE: A discussion about our Community and Moderation. (1/19/2022 10:24:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs



American Eagles was a blast! We used to meet every Saturday to game. I met John Fernandez (SPI and Micro Armor GHQ) and Charles Sharp (GDW) there.

Stadium was in an old mall (probably gone now, the mall that is) in Lakewood, near the Lakewood Public Library. In the strip mall there was a music store and another store where I found out about SPI and that really opened me up to war games. This was all 1978-83 ish.



I remember patronizing American Eagles back in the mid 1980s when they were still in their Greenwood location in northern Seattle. They always had a generous selection of war game titles. Eventually they moved their location to Market Street in Ballard, and then to Lake City where they sadly went out of business back in 2011. What killed them apparently was a dearth of model kit-builders. It just wasn't a hobby the kids were interested in anymore.




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