Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (Full Version)

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tm1 -> Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/20/2022 9:10:15 PM)

Hi

I know I should put this in the " feature Suggestion " sub forum, however in the General section it will be seen more.

I have been keeping up with the discussions on the forum regularly, there have been a number posts / threads about the fuel and armaments factories.

Back in the day before WITE 2 came out and everyone was playing WITE 1 the discussion was about both sides never running out of fuel.

When 2 was announced and the game was was being designed I seem to recall in one of the updates posts to the community that in the new game this fuel issue would be addressed for the new game.

Also in WITE 1 the early capture / destruction of Soviet Industry was from what I viewed a popular idea.

Fast forward to now and I mentioned up above we are having discussions about both these subjects again.

The " Sudden Death " requirements are great and if The Axis reach The Caucasus its " Game Over " for The Soviets.

Also I have read posts saying that The Axis can run out of fuel in 1942 and 44/45.

But we still seem to have members of the community asking about both the fuel and armaments issues.

I know 2 by 3 games have a lot of things on there plate just with the current format of the game and there doing a great job, love this game.

So My proposal would be the design of a fuel issue ( both sides ) and early capture / destruction of Soviet Industry " NON Sudden death oriented 41 campaign ".

I know 3 by 2 games cant just throw one together overnight, it could come in a expansion pack sometime down the track or maybe in a DLC or something in 6 months time or so.

The " Sudden death " is great challenge even for me playing the AI, but I always like to challenge myself even more and adding 2 more obstacles / incentives in this game makes it all the more fun.

So could maybe 2 by 3 games put out a POLL and see what the community thinks about such a Idea.

regards













Stamb -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/20/2022 9:27:10 PM)

+1
As I wrote in some topic, I am ready to even pay for a DLC that will make sense of capturing factories in Kharkov, Zaporozhye, Dnepropetrovsk, Stalino and nearby cities and so on. If they are captured before a date - it must lead to less production of a Soviet equipment.

IRL Germans were going for this cities for a reason. At it is factories and production. This is what wins a war.



loki100 -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/20/2022 9:38:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

...
As I wrote in some topic, I am ready to even pay for a DLC that will make sense of capturing factories in Kharkov, Zaporozhye, Dnepropetrovsk, Stalino and nearby cities and so on. If they are captured before a date - it must lead to less production of a Soviet equipment.

...


it does at the moment



thedoctorking -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/20/2022 9:48:49 PM)

If I understand correctly, factories are evacuated on their historical date and this makes no change in the Soviet production. But it the Axis occupy the city before that historical date, then the factory is evacuated, but the Soviets lose that production for the intervening period. So there is a reason for the Axis to try to occupy factory sites quickly and for the Soviets to defend those factory cities as best they can.



Stamb -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/20/2022 9:58:24 PM)

When I have time I will play as both sides and then just rush to this cities as an Axis and then compare production for the Soviets when this cities are taken and not. It will give an answer.

Or maybe some players have a saves when this cities were taken ahead of historical date and can check Logistics production screen to see if there are any penalties in production.



tm1 -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/20/2022 10:12:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

...
As I wrote in some topic, I am ready to even pay for a DLC that will make sense of capturing factories in Kharkov, Zaporozhye, Dnepropetrovsk, Stalino and nearby cities and so on. If they are captured before a date - it must lead to less production of a Soviet equipment.

...


it does at the moment



I'm sure your correct on this matter but what I am saying is that from playing WITE 1 early capture of some Soviet Factories resulted in there permanent destruction, while others were rebuilt for Axis use.

However in WITE 2 if the Axis capture a city early the factories still get evacuated and there is just a disruption in production based on the capture time.

There is the exception I believe that factories that were never captured historically do in fact become permanently destroyed which is great but these factories are so far back in the interior of Russia it would seem unlikely to reach them, well not against a human player anyway.

What I'm proposing is the destruction of some but not all factories in Western Russia that are overrun in 1941 during the opening Axis invasion be permanently removed from Russian industry.

regards




carlkay58 -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/20/2022 11:56:51 PM)

The current system has Soviet factories removed to the east having a delay in time before they begin to operate again at full strength factory size.

If the Axis captures the city BEFORE the historical evacuation two things happen. The first is that the delay is longer and will not be ready until well after the historical evacuation would have been. I have seen delays as long as 120 turns for captured factories. The other penalty is that the factory size is also reduced - sometimes down to 1. The size of a factory grows slowly over time until it hits a maximum size. So early captured factories will be out longer than historical evacuation and be smaller.

The Axis are no longer able to totally destroy a factory. Why? Because the Soviets would have built a new factory to replace it. Just because the single factory producing equipment X is captured and destroyed by the Axis does not mean that the Soviets would then abandon the project because the factory was destroyed. They would rebuild the factory from scratch - which is what the current game process does. It is a longer process to do so and that is reflected in the game.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/21/2022 12:18:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

The current system has Soviet factories removed to the east having a delay in time before they begin to operate again at full strength factory size.

If the Axis captures the city BEFORE the historical evacuation two things happen. The first is that the delay is longer and will not be ready until well after the historical evacuation would have been. I have seen delays as long as 120 turns for captured factories. The other penalty is that the factory size is also reduced - sometimes down to 1. The size of a factory grows slowly over time until it hits a maximum size. So early captured factories will be out longer than historical evacuation and be smaller.

The Axis are no longer able to totally destroy a factory. Why? Because the Soviets would have built a new factory to replace it. Just because the single factory producing equipment X is captured and destroyed by the Axis does not mean that the Soviets would then abandon the project because the factory was destroyed. They would rebuild the factory from scratch - which is what the current game process does. It is a longer process to do so and that is reflected in the game.



If you capture Moscow you will destroy the factories there. If the factories were not moved in real life that the game is modeled after then the factories are destroyed if captured in the game. I mentioned this in this thread https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5064885 I am pretty sure this has not changed since I was gone the last couple of months.

Thus, if you take Stalingrad the factories are destroyed.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/21/2022 12:21:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

The current system has Soviet factories removed to the east having a delay in time before they begin to operate again at full strength factory size.

If the Axis captures the city BEFORE the historical evacuation two things happen. The first is that the delay is longer and will not be ready until well after the historical evacuation would have been. I have seen delays as long as 120 turns for captured factories. The other penalty is that the factory size is also reduced - sometimes down to 1. The size of a factory grows slowly over time until it hits a maximum size. So early captured factories will be out longer than historical evacuation and be smaller.

The Axis are no longer able to totally destroy a factory. Why? Because the Soviets would have built a new factory to replace it. Just because the single factory producing equipment X is captured and destroyed by the Axis does not mean that the Soviets would then abandon the project because the factory was destroyed. They would rebuild the factory from scratch - which is what the current game process does. It is a longer process to do so and that is reflected in the game.



If you capture Moscow you will destroy the factories there. If the factories were not moved in real life that the game is modeled after then the factories are destroyed if captured in the game. I mentioned this in this thread https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5064885 I am pretty sure this has not changed since I was gone the last couple of months.

Thus, if you take Stalingrad the factories are destroyed.


It was post #10 in the thread linked above where I started the conversation on destroying industry.



tm1 -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/21/2022 12:21:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

The current system has Soviet factories removed to the east having a delay in time before they begin to operate again at full strength factory size.

If the Axis captures the city BEFORE the historical evacuation two things happen. The first is that the delay is longer and will not be ready until well after the historical evacuation would have been. I have seen delays as long as 120 turns for captured factories. The other penalty is that the factory size is also reduced - sometimes down to 1. The size of a factory grows slowly over time until it hits a maximum size. So early captured factories will be out longer than historical evacuation and be smaller.

The Axis are no longer able to totally destroy a factory. Why? Because the Soviets would have built a new factory to replace it. Just because the single factory producing equipment X is captured and destroyed by the Axis does not mean that the Soviets would then abandon the project because the factory was destroyed. They would rebuild the factory from scratch - which is what the current game process does. It is a longer process to do so and that is reflected in the game.



You have made some good points there on the Factories, however there is still the question of Fuel.

like I said in my opening post if The Axis capture The Caucasus its basically game over for the Russians, that is in a SUDDEN DEATH campaign as more likely The Axis will have the numbers when the Check is activated.

However in a LONG game the loss of The Caucasus could possibly be a disaster ( The Soviets ) for them, on the other with LENDLEASE and oil facilities in the extreme EAST might save them.

I am not looking at this from one side as I also feel The Axis should have the same issues to.

I play The Axis but I want a even playing field, so if I launch a 1942 offensive and run out of fuel, so be it.

I see a lot of players saying they may run out of fuel in 42 but there will be a post from some one you wont because of game design more or less and then another post saying you may.

I just want the game to be as historical as can possibly for both sides, that is all.


regards






thedoctorking -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/21/2022 12:57:17 AM)

Yeah, I remember one really lame thing that happened to me in a WitE1 game - my Li-2 factory was captured before it could be evacuated, and so the Soviet air force didn't have any transport capability until the Yankees started sending us C-47's in 1973. I remember thinking at the time that the Soviets would certainly have figured out how to build a new factory if their original one was overrun.



Jango32 -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/21/2022 7:05:29 AM)

Capturing Stalingrad does not destroy the factories.



Jango32 -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/21/2022 7:20:22 AM)

In any event there is no real production loss even if you do let cities be taken before evacuation happened, this is most felt when players just abandon Ukraine with minimal defenses just to delay the Axis a bit, but not actually hold them back. I also have no recollection of someone on the forum (AAR or otherwise) actually doing a manual evacuation in anticipation of losing a hex earlier than historical, which makes me believe there is no reason to do so.



KenchiSulla -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/21/2022 7:53:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32

In any event there is no real production loss even if you do let cities be taken before evacuation happened, this is most felt when players just abandon Ukraine with minimal defenses just to delay the Axis a bit, but not actually hold them back. I also have no recollection of someone on the forum (AAR or otherwise) actually doing a manual evacuation in anticipation of losing a hex earlier than historical, which makes me believe there is no reason to do so.


When you have a city that has its rail cut but otherwise well defended and still contains factories I would move the factories manually



loki100 -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/21/2022 8:02:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

When I have time I will play as both sides and then just rush to this cities as an Axis and then compare production for the Soviets when this cities are taken and not. It will give an answer.

....


rather handily there is an answer in the manual

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/9638/r2BCtz.jpg[/image]

quote:

ORIGINAL: tm1

...

Also in WITE 1 the early capture / destruction of Soviet Industry was from what I viewed a popular idea.

...




two issues - one a lot of the WiTE1 game play around this was utterly unrealistic with German mot divisions doing odd moves to 'lock down' factories etc. Also Soviet players sending factories forward so they would get destroyed to save on supply/production or moving them on a regular basis so they stayed damaged. I'm sure there was a load else.

So, one goal in WiTE2, was to limit the value of ahistorical actions

the other, equally important, is to better place the player, in WiTE1 you ended up as a hybrid of Stalin and Stavka, WiTE2 you are in charge of military operations and the wider context is handled for you (or constrains you via the VP system).

When I first started testing (some time ago), I fussed around trying to work the perfect HI/arms pt mix to save, when to evacuate and so on. Realised it was not part of the design and have never bothered with it since.



Stamb -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/21/2022 8:32:45 AM)

I want to perform my test to check if production of different kinds of weapons will go down or not.

Let's imagine following situation.
When fabrics are operating at full power (enough supplies/armament points and all other stuff that is needed) every turn Soviet produces:
- 10k rifles
- 500 howitzers

Will production of a weapons itself (not armament points) go down or Soviets still will be able to produce 10k rifles, 500 howitzers like before only because they have virtual pool of stockpiled armament points (which grapth goes only up and up in every game, even vs an AI), if cities with this factories will be captured ahead of a historical date?
This is a question.



Stamb -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/21/2022 8:41:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58
...
The Axis are no longer able to totally destroy a factory. Why? Because the Soviets would have built a new factory to replace it. Just because the single factory producing equipment X is captured and destroyed by the Axis does not mean that the Soviets would then abandon the project because the factory was destroyed. They would rebuild the factory from scratch - which is what the current game process does. It is a longer process to do so and that is reflected in the game.


It makes sense, but for example production of a main weapons is fixed. Lets say Axis builds 20 88mm flak per turn. While still producing tons of other weapons that are already counted in thousands in a pool. Would not it make a sense to shift production to fulfill a gap in a missing items?



Beethoven1 -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/21/2022 12:34:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32

In any event there is no real production loss even if you do let cities be taken before evacuation happened, this is most felt when players just abandon Ukraine with minimal defenses just to delay the Axis a bit, but not actually hold them back. I also have no recollection of someone on the forum (AAR or otherwise) actually doing a manual evacuation in anticipation of losing a hex earlier than historical, which makes me believe there is no reason to do so.


I have done manual evacuation, and pretty sure I mentioned it in an AAR somewhere. You do get more production by manually evacuating if you are going to lose somewhere prior to its historical capture date, because if factories are force evacuated early they get more damage and so they take longer to repair and get back to 100% production. This probably doesn't make much if any difference for armaments, since Soviets should have basically enough of those anyway, but it does make at least some difference for production of AFVs and planes in some cases (since those have the specialized factories).



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/21/2022 3:39:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32

Capturing Stalingrad does not destroy the factories.


Capturing Stalingrad "will" destroy the T-34 Chassis factories that are located there if the hex is taken by the Germans.



Jango32 -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/21/2022 3:42:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


Capturing Stalingrad "will" destroy the T-34 Chassis factories that are located there if the hex is taken by the Germans.


They will not be permanently destroyed, you will get the same amount of factories in Tizny Nigal and the Stalingrad factories will automatically be deleted (even if Stalingrad is never lost) on the historical capture date.



Jango32 -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/21/2022 3:59:50 PM)

So technically you are correct that they get permanently destroyed if Stalingrad is captured, however in practice it is scripted that the Soviets will always get an equal number of factories in Tizny Nigal to the factories in Stalingrad, with an additional script that destroys the factories in Stalingrad in case it is never captured.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/21/2022 4:09:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


Capturing Stalingrad "will" destroy the T-34 Chassis factories that are located there if the hex is taken by the Germans.


They will not be permanently destroyed, you will get the same amount of factories in Tizny Nigal and the Stalingrad factories will automatically be deleted (even if Stalingrad is never lost) on the historical capture date.


My tests are showing otherwise but I am using the IL-2's that are in Moscow as a reference point since they don't have a historical date of movement so they were not moved. The other items had a move date. The T-34's in Stalingrad are listed like the IL-2's and I have not seen the IL2's come back after the capture of Moscow. Even advancing the Turn and the production screen still does not have the destroyed IL2s Maybe you have more info than I have but my test is showing what I wrote is correct and pretty sure per the manual. If you can show how the destroyed T-34's from Stalingrad comes back, or the IL2's I destroyed taking Moscow I would greatly appreciate it.

This is just my test case and took Moscow and advanced the turn, you can clearly see all the factories that did move, but the IL2's were not in that list of having been evacuated.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/7BCB69645B1D4F409225E971C898A210.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/21/2022 4:10:56 PM)

Even after advancing the turn the Moscow production is not there. I can advance a few more to test if they show up after so many turns.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/53D09406FB044B529DA3DB68EB353DA3.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/21/2022 4:16:12 PM)

Maybe there is a delay for the IL2's to come back? Or maybe they are gone. It is one or the other. I believe they are gone.



RC01214 -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/21/2022 4:35:02 PM)

If I remember the editor values for the Stalingrad T34 factories correctly, they are removed at the historical loss date, with several other T34 factories elsewhere expanding to compensate for their loss shortly afterwards.

The vehicle (truck) factories there and elsewhere are permanently lost if captured, but on map production for soviets is not that high for a major difference to be noticed. Most Soviet vehicles come from Lend lease.

Armaments and heavy industry factories seem to vary by location: much of Kharkov is evacuated if captured or on the historical loss date, but for Odessa and Minsk, they seem to be permanently lost. Perhaps no one is noticing any changes because Soviet production in the Urals and Moscow is high enough for the losses to not matter?

Oil, fuel, and resources are only damaged, never lost or evacuated. I think it was not physically possible to move these IRL and Germany had plans to use them and deny them to the Soviets via conquest of the Caucasus.

Take all this with a grain of salt however; I may not be accounting for any hard coded moves or compensations for losses.



RedJohn -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/21/2022 4:36:04 PM)

The current model is more realistic insofar as the Soviets would indeed not just never replace industry lost, but it directly counteracts against the implemented VP system which is now the only argument for not just running away rapidly as the Soviets.

Given the potential snowball you can achieve in 42 and 43 though, I don't see the VP system as a viable system that incentivizes players enough to defend forward, and would thus welcome suggestions like OP's to incentvize the Germans to go for cities and the Soviets to defend those cities.



Jango32 -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/21/2022 5:03:14 PM)

Maybe a compromise solution would be that Soviets permanently lose half the factories in a hex if overrun before evacuation.



loki100 -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/22/2022 10:13:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


Capturing Stalingrad "will" destroy the T-34 Chassis factories that are located there if the hex is taken by the Germans.


They will not be permanently destroyed, you will get the same amount of factories in Tizny Nigal and the Stalingrad factories will automatically be deleted (even if Stalingrad is never lost) on the historical capture date.


My tests are showing otherwise but I am using the IL-2's that are in Moscow as a reference point since they don't have a historical date of movement so they were not moved. The other items had a move date. The T-34's in Stalingrad are listed like the IL-2's and I have not seen the IL2's come back after the capture of Moscow. Even advancing the Turn and the production screen still does not have the destroyed IL2s Maybe you have more info than I have but my test is showing what I wrote is correct and pretty sure per the manual. If you can show how the destroyed T-34's from Stalingrad comes back, or the IL2's I destroyed taking Moscow I would greatly appreciate it.

This is just my test case and took Moscow and advanced the turn, you can clearly see all the factories that did move, but the IL2's were not in that list of having been evacuated.

...


Jango is right, yes the T34s in Stalingrad are destroyed on loss but are then replaced elsewhere. You are right, the Il-2 and other production in Moscow is a permanent loss.

The key being that the latter were never historically lost while Stalingrad did fall (I realise you know this but that seems to be a key bit of the logic to the factory migration routines)



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/22/2022 4:35:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


Capturing Stalingrad "will" destroy the T-34 Chassis factories that are located there if the hex is taken by the Germans.


They will not be permanently destroyed, you will get the same amount of factories in Tizny Nigal and the Stalingrad factories will automatically be deleted (even if Stalingrad is never lost) on the historical capture date.


My tests are showing otherwise but I am using the IL-2's that are in Moscow as a reference point since they don't have a historical date of movement so they were not moved. The other items had a move date. The T-34's in Stalingrad are listed like the IL-2's and I have not seen the IL2's come back after the capture of Moscow. Even advancing the Turn and the production screen still does not have the destroyed IL2s Maybe you have more info than I have but my test is showing what I wrote is correct and pretty sure per the manual. If you can show how the destroyed T-34's from Stalingrad comes back, or the IL2's I destroyed taking Moscow I would greatly appreciate it.

This is just my test case and took Moscow and advanced the turn, you can clearly see all the factories that did move, but the IL2's were not in that list of having been evacuated.

...


Jango is right, yes the T34s in Stalingrad are destroyed on loss but are then replaced elsewhere. You are right, the Il-2 and other production in Moscow is a permanent loss.

The key being that the latter were never historically lost while Stalingrad did fall (I realise you know this but that seems to be a key bit of the logic to the factory migration routines)



Only one was replaced of the two that were in Stalingrad and went to Leningrad. I tested it out.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/DABEC3476A8845C8B685D012D002C217.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/22/2022 4:40:57 PM)

The Commanders report

[image]local://upfiles/53556/4B1E9ABACE404170B4EFFF6400754EF1.jpg[/image]



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