14.2.1.3 Catastrophic Events (Full Version)

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dr.hal -> 14.2.1.3 Catastrophic Events (1/20/2022 9:44:45 PM)

Looking at the section of the manual concerning "Catastrophic Events", I wonder what the details are and if any players have any deeper understanding. It says "in the course of a repair....." and "during any repair...." such an event might occur that would result in the destruction of the ship under repair. I read that as stating that, first the ship has to be under repair and second, that it is a ONE time dice roll per "repair". Now does that mean the die is rolled every turn for each ship under repair for every turn under repair or that it is rolled ONCE during that repair cycle (until repairs are "complete"?) for each ship. Clearly the manual is not totally informative and forces one to speculate as to the chances of such an event occuring (which admittedly are very low, BUT!). If it is once for ever turn for each ship under any forum of repair during that turn, then it can become a significant figure over the course of the war.... If that's the case, even sending a ship into stand down mode to repair a "1" point systems problem involves a small risk of that ship being destroyed. Does anyone on the forum have any insight (note, NOT speculation, but actual insight)? Has this happened to anyone while playing a game? Under what circumstances?



RangerJoe -> RE: 14.2.1.3 Catastrophic Events (1/20/2022 9:56:03 PM)

I have had a tanker underway get on fire and then it sank . . .



Don Bowen -> RE: 14.2.1.3 Catastrophic Events (1/20/2022 10:13:06 PM)

I do not recall the exact implementation of this "feature" but it is intended to reflect accidents occuring during any repair. A welders torch starting a fire, a crane dropping a heavy load onto (or though) the ship, a major whoops while unloading ammunition, some minor electrical repair causing a generator to short out, overheat, and start a fire, all the way to something drastic, like the Stewart falling off the blocks in a drydock. To quote a very-cleaned-up expression from my navy days: feces occurs and occasionally it is unusually maloderous. The original expression frequently included a reference to exactly how this particular load of feces compared to some odiferous nastiness.

Almost all of these accidents will merely result in more damage to the ship. How much is determined by a dice roll and can be minimal or potentially be massive. If the original damage plus the added damage from the "accident" exceed 99%, the ship is destroyed.

I personnally believe that occurrences of operational or repairing damage are far lower than reality but too much reality here would hinder game play. Just enough to keep it interesting and it always, always, happens at the wrong time.



Kull -> RE: 14.2.1.3 Catastrophic Events (1/20/2022 10:26:23 PM)

Oh yes, one of the most famous cases of this was the luxury liner SS Normandie which was being refitted as a troopship in New York. It caught fire at the dock, capsized, and was ultimately scrapped. I may have one in-game example, although the damage was not extreme (will look for the save game and report back)



RangerJoe -> RE: 14.2.1.3 Catastrophic Events (1/20/2022 10:36:05 PM)

The Normandie

https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/normandie-catches-fire-capsizes-1942-article-1.2103184

Then a little more recent bunch of fires . . .

https://taskandpurpose.com/news/bonhomme-richard-kearsarge-john-f-kennedy-fires/



LargeSlowTarget -> RE: 14.2.1.3 Catastrophic Events (1/20/2022 10:36:16 PM)

There is a very very small chance that a ship under repair may explode - think spontaneous magazine explosion on Mutsu. Never seen it. I have had ships hitting uncharted rocks and sink.



Wirraway_Ace -> RE: 14.2.1.3 Catastrophic Events (1/20/2022 10:36:45 PM)

LST beat me to Mutsu.


I have no idea how the game generates these event. They are good color, when they happen.



Kull -> RE: 14.2.1.3 Catastrophic Events (1/20/2022 10:38:53 PM)

Three AVDs start their conversion in Sydney on 3/20/43. Note the damage is fairly similar. I also highlight the repair yard usage, because - on further review - there may be something else going on here:

[image]local://upfiles/25668/EB4BE05667D54A7A86C2CC5D5D1E3EA3.jpg[/image]



Kull -> RE: 14.2.1.3 Catastrophic Events (1/20/2022 10:42:54 PM)

One day later, and we see there's a noticeable disparity between Hulbert's damage and that of the other two. However, in that same period, the repair yard became "overloaded". Since Hulbert doesn't have extra damage, but simply shows a slower rate of damage removal, it's probably not due to the "small chance of repair damage" algorithm. Oh well!

[image]local://upfiles/25668/6AAB8C3329E243168F1FB1FCB6A6DC81.jpg[/image]



dr.hal -> RE: 14.2.1.3 Catastrophic Events (1/20/2022 10:49:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

I do not recall the exact implementation of this "feature"

Thanks Don for keeping the discussion on topic and I'm sorry to hear that you don't recall the details!!! I certainly understand what this concept is supposed to reflect in real life (as I've noted in another thread, my grandfather almost lost his life while working on the USS Constellation in the Brooklyn Naval Yard due to such an "accident") as accidents or simply dumb moves happen. I also realize it's rare, I just thought someone might know a bit more around the parameters the game uses to assess such things, especially how often the "dice are rolled" so to speak for any given ship under repair. Again, from what I read, it's ships "under repair" not steaming along or as a result of battle damage (unless it's undergoing repair of that damage!). And I agree, the instances of such events seem to be VERY rare indeed, far below the actual events during the war, much like aircraft training accidents in which pilots are casualties in the game vs. actual statistics of the war records.



Kull -> RE: 14.2.1.3 Catastrophic Events (1/20/2022 10:53:22 PM)

I recall reading in one of the Dev Threads that the original algorithm was much more accurate, but that some playtesters were appalled at the in-game results, so it was significantly reduced.



dr.hal -> RE: 14.2.1.3 Catastrophic Events (1/20/2022 10:54:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

One day later, and we see there's a noticeable disparity between Hulbert's damage and that of the other two. However, in that same period, the repair yard became "overloaded". Since Hulbert doesn't have extra damage, but simply shows a slower rate of damage removal, it's probably not due to the "small chance of repair damage" algorithm. Oh well!

[image]local://upfiles/25668/6AAB8C3329E243168F1FB1FCB6A6DC81.jpg[/image]

Interesting Kull, it might be the result of the APA's being moved into the shipyard repair by the game due to the fact that both were automatically approved for an "upgrade" which the player (You) allowed, meaning they are moved into the shipyard by the program, whether there's room or not (I've had this happen to me MANY times).



dr.hal -> RE: 14.2.1.3 Catastrophic Events (1/20/2022 10:56:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

I recall reading in one of the Dev Threads that the original algorithm was much more accurate, but that some playtesters were appalled at the in-game results, so it was significantly reduced.

Do you mean the original algorithm concerning "Catastrophic Events"?



Kull -> RE: 14.2.1.3 Catastrophic Events (1/20/2022 10:59:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

I recall reading in one of the Dev Threads that the original algorithm was much more accurate, but that some playtesters were appalled at the in-game results, so it was significantly reduced.

Do you mean the original algorithm concerning "Catastrophic Events"?


Yes, that is correct



BBfanboy -> RE: 14.2.1.3 Catastrophic Events (1/21/2022 12:24:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

One day later, and we see there's a noticeable disparity between Hulbert's damage and that of the other two. However, in that same period, the repair yard became "overloaded". Since Hulbert doesn't have extra damage, but simply shows a slower rate of damage removal, it's probably not due to the "small chance of repair damage" algorithm. Oh well!

[image]local://upfiles/25668/6AAB8C3329E243168F1FB1FCB6A6DC81.jpg[/image]

Looks like the shipyard gave it a "stacking" penalty! [:D]



RangerJoe -> RE: 14.2.1.3 Catastrophic Events (1/21/2022 12:30:17 AM)

Those APAs don't need to be in the shipyard at all. Those AVDs can get out when the floatation and engine damage major reach 5 or less on both.



CaptBeefheart -> RE: 14.2.1.3 Catastrophic Events (1/21/2022 1:00:21 AM)

Don: Thanks for the explanation. This kind of color helps make the game great. We'll be sorry to see you leave this forum.

On the above repair example, I've always thought it would be nice if ships would automatically go to pier mode if shipyard mode doesn't help (like the APAs above). Anyway, something for WITP2.

Cheers,
CB



Erik Rutins -> RE: 14.2.1.3 Catastrophic Events (1/21/2022 1:41:04 AM)

I know Don is giving away his books, but I don't recall reading that he's leaving the forum. Did I miss something?



Kull -> RE: 14.2.1.3 Catastrophic Events (1/21/2022 1:49:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Those APAs don't need to be in the shipyard at all. Those AVDs can get out when the floatation and engine damage major reach 5 or less on both.


You know RJ, I'd always heard that, but in my game it seems to be very arbitrary. For example, here's a closer look at APA J. Franklin Bell. No pierside repair option. And it gets weirder.....

[image]local://upfiles/25668/3C32CE9BEA884480A91388F952EFAE8E.jpg[/image]



dr.hal -> RE: 14.2.1.3 Catastrophic Events (1/21/2022 1:54:03 AM)

Not that I'm aware of Erik, you might want to PM him. Hal



Kull -> RE: 14.2.1.3 Catastrophic Events (1/21/2022 1:55:36 AM)

Six days later and I've been violating all the laws of physics and cramming ships into Sydney for their conversions. Fortunately the 3 AVDs we looked at earlier have cleared out their major damage, so it should be easy to shift them over to Pierside right? But only AVD Hulbert is at Pierside! Get off your butt Kull, move the other two!

[image]local://upfiles/25668/832FCDD569A646AAB4C40DFCBE4C3471.jpg[/image]



Kull -> RE: 14.2.1.3 Catastrophic Events (1/21/2022 2:03:07 AM)

OK, OK! Let's start with AVD MacFarland......except....ummm....there's one little problem. No pierside option.

Why one and not the other two? Oddly enough I looked at other saves and other ports, and similar things happen to other classes. The only common denominator seems to be, "entered the conversion with Sys Damage of 1 or more". If it's zero, then no pierside repair option. It would be interesting if others could replicate that, because if so, it's probably a bug and perhaps Michael could look at it.

[image]local://upfiles/25668/3C157550BEF145A58CA9B4862998E9E2.jpg[/image]



dr.hal -> RE: 14.2.1.3 Catastrophic Events (1/21/2022 2:05:31 AM)

Kull in post #7 it shows the APA Bell before it was switched into the yard. Was it selected for upgrade and what date upgrade? In post #18 it shows that the "current" upgrade is March 43, while the next is, as you point out, April 44. If it was put into Sidney with the 3/43 upgrade YET to be done, and then in the next move it was moved into the yard to HAVE that upgrade installed, then it would show the next future upgrade, that of 4/44. So without knowing what date it was moved to Sidney and what it's upgrade status was at that time, it's current status is "strange". BUT it can be explained if the ship entered Sidney after 3/43 and you had oked it for upgrade, then the program shifted it automatically which would then show the next future upgrade. Make sense?



Kull -> RE: 14.2.1.3 Catastrophic Events (1/21/2022 2:20:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Kull in post #7 it shows the APA Bell before it was switched into the yard. Was it selected for upgrade and what date upgrade? In post #18 it shows that the "current" upgrade is March 43, while the next is, as you point out, April 44. If it was put into Sidney with the 3/43 upgrade YET to be done, and then in the next move it was moved into the yard to HAVE that upgrade installed, then it would show the next future upgrade, that of 4/44. So without knowing what date it was moved to Sidney and what it's upgrade status was at that time, it's current status is "strange". BUT it can be explained if the ship entered Sidney after 3/43 and you had oked it for upgrade, then the program shifted it automatically which would then show the next future upgrade. Make sense?


The first screen shot was March 20 1943, and shows them as "AP". I was clearing out the system damage in Pierside mode AND had them marked YES for the 3/43 conversion. The next screen shot is March 21 1943 and they are now APAs in Shipyard mode and can't be shifted to Pierside.

BUT....that means I should be able to test the "Sys Damage theory"! Just re-run the save, but this time no pierside repair first, just conversion. Let's see what happens....



RangerJoe -> RE: 14.2.1.3 Catastrophic Events (1/21/2022 2:20:29 AM)

Those APAs don't need to be in the shipyard at all. Those AVDs can get out when the floatation and engine damage major reach 5 or less on both.



Kull -> RE: 14.2.1.3 Catastrophic Events (1/21/2022 2:21:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Those APAs don't need to be in the shipyard at all. Those AVDs can get out when the floatation and engine damage major reach 5 or less on both.


Look at the screenshots....no they can't. Pierside is not a selectable option.



dr.hal -> RE: 14.2.1.3 Catastrophic Events (1/21/2022 2:29:48 AM)

If the ship is put into a port that can accomodate an upgrade and the upgrade is allowed, then it will happen automatically. If there's a shipyard in that port, the upgrading ship will automatically be put into the yard, overload or not. As RJ points out, almost always the upgrading ship can be switched back to "pierside" manually on that turn. It's only NOT possible if the damage incurred by the ship prior to its upgrade OR, OR, OR as a result of the hits taken because of the upgrade, will the ship not be allowed to move pierside (as the upgrade is in progress!!!!). I'm not sure if you can force the ship back to pierside, as I've never tested it.



dr.hal -> RE: 14.2.1.3 Catastrophic Events (1/21/2022 2:31:51 AM)

BUT, as usually we are WAY off topic from my OP!!!!! Ugh.



RangerJoe -> RE: 14.2.1.3 Catastrophic Events (1/21/2022 2:32:11 AM)

Go to the "Manage ships under repair" screen and change them there . . .



Kull -> RE: 14.2.1.3 Catastrophic Events (1/21/2022 3:03:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Go to the "Manage ships under repair" screen and change them there . . .


Hoo Boy! Been playing this game for 13 years and NEVER used that button. [&:] Thanks RJ [&o], and LOL at me!

So Doc, I apologize for grabbing your thread, but there is an important lesson for newbies in all this:

1) You can play this game for over a decade and still learn new things on a regular basis
2) Your failure to know EVERYTHING has no impact on game success or enjoyment
2) And lastly, "Forum Experts" don't always know what they are talking about [:D]



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