RE: The Red Army Is (Not) Overpowered - A tongue in cheek aar (Full Version)

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56ajax -> RE: The Red Army Is (Not) Overpowered - A tongue in cheek aar (1/30/2022 4:07:06 AM)

When do the Tank divs start disbanding into brigades?



RedJohn -> RE: The Red Army Is (Not) Overpowered - A tongue in cheek aar (1/30/2022 4:10:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 56ajax

When do the Tank divs start disbanding into brigades?


I believe there's a 20 or 30% chance for them to reform into brigades if they're routed, and I think every tank is converted turn 32 or something.



RedJohn -> RE: The Red Army Is (Not) Overpowered - A tongue in cheek aar (1/30/2022 4:14:17 AM)

Turn 7 start. I did move my cavalry around though, to encircle some Germans and to move out of a potential pocket - insofar as I could of course.

Slow grinding at Leningrad, no attacks towards Moscow, but some pushing north of Gomel. Gomel itself also fell.

[image]local://upfiles/68404/086AEAE80B8E4DCCBC414251C574AD8F.jpg[/image]



RedJohn -> RE: The Red Army Is (Not) Overpowered - A tongue in cheek aar (1/30/2022 4:38:57 AM)

Turn end. Pretty much the only movement was north of Gomel, and the cavalry in the south. I've deployed more useless troops - such as NKVD units brought in from TBs - to the south also.

I should also mention since I forgot to last time, Rostov was given 8 rifle divisions as reinforcements last turn in order to build up it as a city fort. I probably won't keep them all there, but Rostov is certainly a worthwhile investment as for whatever reason it's CVs seem to balloon.

[image]local://upfiles/68404/14CA481997F34665AE3450A76E1A2754.jpg[/image]



RedJohn -> RE: The Red Army Is (Not) Overpowered - A tongue in cheek aar (1/30/2022 4:43:11 AM)

A mighty 600 CV, despite most of it's divisions being 50-70% TOE.

[image]local://upfiles/68404/7B1A3BC16BA04603A73A18C1ACBDD5ED.jpg[/image]



RedJohn -> RE: The Red Army Is (Not) Overpowered - A tongue in cheek aar (1/30/2022 4:51:13 AM)

OOB turn 7. Central front is made an assault HQ - dunno if I mentioned that.

[image]local://upfiles/68404/C04BD8CF52154F48A1485A68DE581A74.jpg[/image]



RedJohn -> RE: The Red Army Is (Not) Overpowered - A tongue in cheek aar (1/30/2022 4:28:51 PM)

A setback, I've managed to let me cavalry get encircled. I was hoping to save the ones from the potential pocket, but may have doomed the entire army instead!

We've called BOBKIN to save us.

[image]local://upfiles/68404/5C570F3DCDA644F0A05A18C2A8FD5B14.jpg[/image]



RedJohn -> RE: The Red Army Is (Not) Overpowered - A tongue in cheek aar (1/30/2022 4:32:19 PM)

Bobkin saves the day... For now. Our brave cavalry have also decided of their own accord to march in and cut off the enemies armored forces.

[image]local://upfiles/68404/7022A52269F94E7ABB06C1D81CE49729.jpg[/image]



RedJohn -> RE: The Red Army Is (Not) Overpowered - A tongue in cheek aar (1/30/2022 4:33:10 PM)

1

[image]local://upfiles/68404/5DC62BC20BEE44EAAA2B87C329127722.jpg[/image]



RedJohn -> RE: The Red Army Is (Not) Overpowered - A tongue in cheek aar (1/30/2022 4:33:53 PM)

2



[image]local://upfiles/68404/E84AD1C93BB44E39B60D4F442FB89DF5.jpg[/image]



RedJohn -> RE: The Red Army Is (Not) Overpowered - A tongue in cheek aar (1/30/2022 4:35:01 PM)

3

[image]local://upfiles/68404/8E5A000617AD404FB0035AA283AFE284.jpg[/image]



RedJohn -> RE: The Red Army Is (Not) Overpowered - A tongue in cheek aar (1/30/2022 4:37:39 PM)

It's BOBKIN with the steel chair! A lot of units encircled, undoubtedly.

[image]local://upfiles/68404/6F20F4436916402592A682190D26230B.jpg[/image]



Stamb -> RE: The Red Army Is (Not) Overpowered - A tongue in cheek aar (1/30/2022 4:40:31 PM)

That is very impressive! Panzers seems to be useless in comparison with motorized divisions. Full pz division route while 1/3rd! of moto divisions just retreats.



Stamb -> RE: The Red Army Is (Not) Overpowered - A tongue in cheek aar (1/30/2022 4:43:05 PM)

Also there was no artillery SU in first two battles. Might turn into hold for a Model.



RedJohn -> RE: The Red Army Is (Not) Overpowered - A tongue in cheek aar (1/30/2022 4:44:11 PM)

The panzer was isolated, so it'll rout, but your statement is still correct insofar as motorised are weirdly stupid strong vs panzers which tend to fail massively against enemy armored. They'll deal casualties, absolutely, but will take tons of their own.

Also: rostov fort.

[image]local://upfiles/68404/BBD5298FDD6242209830BDD8418EE832.jpg[/image]



RedJohn -> RE: The Red Army Is (Not) Overpowered - A tongue in cheek aar (1/30/2022 4:47:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

Also there was no artillery SU in first two battles. Might turn into hold for a Model.


Probably, yeah. I'd have just hit it again with another 2 tank divisions though, so.



Jango32 -> RE: The Red Army Is (Not) Overpowered - A tongue in cheek aar (1/30/2022 4:47:37 PM)

Isn't the answer obvious regarding Panzer performance, even against the supposedly obsolete T-26s and BTs? The Red Army is (not) overpowered.



RedJohn -> RE: The Red Army Is (Not) Overpowered - A tongue in cheek aar (1/30/2022 4:48:11 PM)

Rokossovosky hits another panzer. Tauchpanzers are amphibious tanks I believe?

[image]local://upfiles/68404/4AE6AB26877F4BF191FE03AEE9C9CB89.jpg[/image]



RedJohn -> RE: The Red Army Is (Not) Overpowered - A tongue in cheek aar (1/30/2022 4:52:05 PM)

Another tank battle, though the ratio is not in our favour here sadly. Still we hit more Panzers.

[image]local://upfiles/68404/C78A29A3834A4E7B81D109DE8E476B18.jpg[/image]



Stamb -> RE: The Red Army Is (Not) Overpowered - A tongue in cheek aar (1/30/2022 4:54:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32

Isn't the answer obvious regarding Panzer performance, even against the supposedly obsolete T-26s and BTs? The Red Army is (not) overpowered.

There was a chaos in command and a lack of ammo for a tanks (maybe not only ammo and maybe not only for a tanks) for the Soviets during `41 (if I recall correctly what I read).

While in game there are no issues with supplies so players can refit and supply units easily. And there is no chaos as player has complete control over whole army thus organizing things as he wants.
I am very happy that someone decided to push game mechanics to its limit and show current balance problems.



Stamb -> RE: The Red Army Is (Not) Overpowered - A tongue in cheek aar (1/30/2022 5:10:27 PM)

And while we are talking about balance.

From the very start of the game and even now (after playing for few months) I can not understand how motorized division can perform much better than a panzer division?

Panzer division attacks enemy mech/armor formations -> losses it owns tanks -> becomes useless with 50-60% TOE after few attacks/defense actions.
While motorized divisions barely takes any damage. How armored cars can perform better than a tanks?

So either panzer divisions are under performing heavily or motorized are too OP. We have to agree that until `43 Germans had pretty bad tanks. So maybe panzer divisions are represented correctly.

Sorry for my rambling comrade RedJohn, but I think this is the topic where we can discuss such things.



Jango32 -> RE: The Red Army Is (Not) Overpowered - A tongue in cheek aar (1/30/2022 5:21:59 PM)

This is probably a result of how brittle AFVs are in the game. Panzer divisions were very resilient and powerful formations both on the offense and on the defense not because of how many tanks they had, but because of the tanks and all the other TOE elements working together as combined arms.


In the game though, they are best used for flipping hexes and bullying infantry divisions. Engaging enemy tank or mechanized divisions, even if they are equipped with allegedly obsolete T-26s and BTs, will knock out lots of German AFVs regardless.



Stamb -> RE: The Red Army Is (Not) Overpowered - A tongue in cheek aar (1/30/2022 5:29:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32

This is probably a result of how brittle AFVs are in the game. Panzer divisions were very resilient and powerful formations both on the offense and on the defense not because of how many tanks they had, but because of the tanks and all the other TOE elements working together as combined arms.


In the game though, they are best used for flipping hexes and bullying infantry divisions. Engaging enemy tank or mechanized divisions, even if they are equipped with allegedly obsolete T-26s and BTs, will knock out lots of German AFVs regardless.

Exactly. Remember that there was also flying artillery in support for them, called Luftwaffe. And now open any AAR: "Bombers to Berlin, Stukas to reserve or also to Berlin so they would not use any supply."

Indication that you can not (if you are not a madman) use panzers in order to make a breakthrough should be already a red flag.



Stamb -> RE: The Red Army Is (Not) Overpowered - A tongue in cheek aar (1/30/2022 5:31:32 PM)

As I told previously - I would happily trade all panzer divisions to a mech one. Hell, I would even agree for 3 panzer for 2 motorized.



RedJohn -> RE: The Red Army Is (Not) Overpowered - A tongue in cheek aar (1/30/2022 5:44:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32

Isn't the answer obvious regarding Panzer performance, even against the supposedly obsolete T-26s and BTs? The Red Army is (not) overpowered.

There was a chaos in command and a lack of ammo for a tanks (maybe not only ammo and maybe not only for a tanks) for the Soviets during `41 (if I recall correctly what I read).

While in game there are no issues with supplies so players can refit and supply units easily. And there is no chaos as player has complete control over whole army thus organizing things as he wants.
I am very happy that someone decided to push game mechanics to its limit and show current balance problems.


It's important to note that despite my experience I'm still a pretty mediocre player. My multiple, 100% Loss rate as Germans proves that I think lmao.

But the Soviets are in my eyes so broken that I can basically do whatever I want - if I abandon the south - and just win anyway.



vvs007 -> RE: The Red Army Is (Not) Overpowered - A tongue in cheek aar (1/30/2022 5:58:22 PM)

LOL :) As soon as we see a rare game (one of twenty AARs? or less?) when a Russian player understands the situation better, game mechanics, and just plays better ... immediately we hear screams: "oh my god ... balance!!! ... russian tanks destroy the germans 3 vs 1, not 20 vs 1 as we would like"... it's just ridiculous... :)

let's better talk about how 10 Messerschmits shoot down 100 fighters + 200 twin-engine bombers per flight. Or why Croatian biplanes are better than Soviet MIG3? and would like to understand where in WITE 2 - Germans 90 000 aircrafts historically produced throughout the war? All died in Africa and Normandy?:)

Would like to hope that a respected RedJohn will finally create close to the historical VVS 2.0 and show how the Luftwaffe was historically defeated. But something tells me that this game is coming to prompt end, as it usually happens with us if the blitzkrieg fails. :)

RedJohn good game, thank you!




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: The Red Army Is (Not) Overpowered - A tongue in cheek aar (1/30/2022 6:04:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

As I told previously - I would happily trade all panzer divisions to a mech one. Hell, I would even agree for 3 panzer for 2 motorized.


Brought all this up about motorized units in my earlier AARs. Glad people are seeing this now :-)



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: The Red Army Is (Not) Overpowered - A tongue in cheek aar (1/30/2022 6:06:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vvs007

LOL :) As soon as we see a rare game (one of twenty AARs? or less?) when a Russian player understands the situation better, game mechanics, and just plays better ... immediately we hear screams: "oh my god ... balance!!! ... russian tanks destroy the germans 3 vs 1, not 20 vs 1 as we would like"... it's just ridiculous... :)

let's better talk about how 10 Messerschmits shoot down 100 fighters + 200 twin-engine bombers per flight. Or why Croatian biplanes are better than Soviet MIG3? and would like to understand where in WITE 2 - Germans 90 000 aircrafts historically produced throughout the war? All died in Africa and Normandy?:)

Would like to hope that a respected RedJohn will finally create close to the historical VVS 2.0 and show how the Luftwaffe was historically defeated. But something tells me that this game is coming to prompt end, as it usually happens with us if the blitzkrieg fails. :)

RedJohn good game, thank you!




This has been shown before, nothing new.



Stamb -> RE: The Red Army Is (Not) Overpowered - A tongue in cheek aar (1/30/2022 6:11:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vvs007

LOL :) As soon as we see a rare game (one of twenty AARs? or less?) when a Russian player understands the situation better, game mechanics, and just plays better ... immediately we hear screams: "oh my god ... balance!!! ... russian tanks destroy the germans 3 vs 1, not 20 vs 1 as we would like"... it's just ridiculous... :)

Do you understand that with current balance it is almost impossible to win for the Axis when there are two players with the same skill AND Soviet player is playing for the win, thus retreating, not trying to play historically.
I have read all of the AARs in wite 2 on this forum (I have no access to the beta forum, or however it is called). And the only times when Axis was winning - it was due to a big difference in a skill, like HLYA vs somebody who plays Soviets for the first time and with motorization which is completely broken).

Check this topic:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5076008

In ideal world it should be 50%/50%.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vvs007
let's better talk about how 10 Messerschmits shoot down 100 fighters + 200 twin-engine bombers per flight. Or why Croatian biplanes are better than Soviet MIG3? and would like to understand where in WITE 2 - Germans 90 000 aircrafts historically produced throughout the war? All died in Africa and Normandy?:)
...


This is also not normal and should be fixed. It current patch I it will be closed to a 30-40 BF models. Not sure where do you see such losses.
And while we are talking about Axis allies in the air - Soviet i16 planes are destroying Rumanians for example

I am nor Axis nor Soviet fanboy. I just want a balanced game so both players can have a chance of winning it. Who would even agree to play a side that can not (maybe it can in 10% - 20%) win a game?



Stamb -> RE: The Red Army Is (Not) Overpowered - A tongue in cheek aar (1/30/2022 6:14:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

As I told previously - I would happily trade all panzer divisions to a mech one. Hell, I would even agree for 3 panzer for 2 motorized.


Brought all this up about motorized units in my earlier AARs. Glad people are seeing this now :-)

At that time I had no idea about this amazing game. Unfortunately your message was not seen.



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