RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (Full Version)

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DesertedFox -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/3/2022 12:44:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

My recommendation, back in BETA I believe but can be wrong, was to not replace any leader in an HQ that had a leader killed until the phasing players turn. Yes, you will still have a leader death but you can't go fishing for more leader deaths from the same HQ displaced again.


1. This to me makes the most sense.

2. If this was to be implemented you could also look at the transfer out issue raised in an

isolated hex having a 15% chance of a death as well, due to

a.possibly flying off a makeshift runway or

b. fighter interception or

c. bad weather or

d. mechanical fault.

No need to do a check on the incoming leader as usually anyone

flown out of a pocket was replaced by a similar or lower-ranked officer already in the pocket.

My stance on item 2 would depend on item 1 being implemented. I feel 17 deaths on turn 1 is way too much.

Heck someone had 12 deaths a little while ago as well and I feel that figure is pushing it.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/3/2022 12:51:05 PM)

Linking this to my AAR


https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5134139

No post on the AAR about this but want for reference between the two



Jango32 -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/3/2022 12:59:09 PM)

That would probably require changing it so leaderless HQs are possible to have, and then have the checks done at the higher HQ level for divisions that belong to the HQ that got its leader killed. Not against the idea, but it would require a programmer from the dev team to comment on how easy it would be to do; or maybe Joel.



Beethoven1 -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/3/2022 1:01:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

And playing with an earlier patch is a good idea but what other situations does that bring up?


I have another idea. In the StB scenario, some leaders (e.g. Rotmistrov) are not available until a certain date. So I presume in the editor it is possible to make leaders like Tolbukhin only be available starting on, say, turn 3 or 4 or so.

If so, then what I would do is make a modified scenario where the particularly good/irreplaceable leaders like Tolbukhin don't exist in the game until turn 3 or 4. That would stop them from being re-assigned to doomed HQs within the pockets on the first turn or two.

Mind you, I don't have a problem with some of the normal/bad leaders (in particular the ones that were actually there on the front) getting killed - it even adds a bit of atmosphere. But this is a different thing as compared to that.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/3/2022 1:06:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Beethoven1

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

And playing with an earlier patch is a good idea but what other situations does that bring up?


I have another idea. In the StB scenario, some leaders (e.g. Rotmistrov) are not available until a certain date. So I presume in the editor it is possible to make leaders like Tolbukhin only be available starting on, say, turn 3 or 4 or so.

If so, then what I would do is make a modified scenario where the particularly good/irreplaceable leaders like Tolbukhin don't exist in the game until turn 3 or 4. That would stop them from being re-assigned to doomed HQs within the pockets on the first turn or two.

Mind you, I don't have a problem with some of the normal/bad leaders (in particular the ones that were actually there on the front) getting killed - it even adds a bit of atmosphere. But this is a different thing as compared to that.


OH! I like that idea, especially what Jango32 mentioned in the post above, to put in an available date! Excellent idea.



K62 -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/3/2022 2:03:27 PM)

Just for extra context, I was playing Axis on that T1 and I was not intentionally targeting Soviet leaders. Tolbukhin and Bobkin got assigned to the same corps HQ that kept displacing in the path that PG3 was going to take anyway.

[image]local://upfiles/6726/F3A571E9B15946E986E17F460B40CC9B.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/3/2022 2:25:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: K62

Just for extra context, I was playing Axis on that T1 and I was not intentionally targeting Soviet leaders. Tolbukhin and Bobkin got assigned to the same corps HQ that kept displacing in the path that PG3 was going to take anyway.

[image]local://upfiles/6726/F3A571E9B15946E986E17F460B40CC9B.jpg[/image]


It is the nature of the beast of turn 1 and displacing HQ. It happened to Jubjub in my game and wrote about it in that AAR it was not intentional. It is just not something you can control & thank you for adding this to this post for context. Maybe I can get lucky and get a few good replacement leaders that don't get knocked off after replacing the previous ones in turn 2 :-P. If I have to I will enter Berlin with

[image]local://upfiles/53556/DB86A81EDEB643A6B4CAD923405D25FC.jpg[/image]



Denniss -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/3/2022 3:02:18 PM)

These losses seem way over the top.



Stamb -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/3/2022 3:05:36 PM)

I let AI do the first turn and he killed 7 leaders. With 15% chance it is also too high. 46 displacement had to be made. 46*0.15 = 6.9



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/4/2022 1:09:11 PM)

Here is another game that has 22 leader kills beginning of turn 2 post 22 https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5137928

And I quote MSAG, " Altogether 22 Leaders are KIA to date. Notable ones lost this turn are Kuznetsov (Mech 4, Inf 6) and Andrei Vlasov"


I did not see MSAG's 1st turn leader loss & may have missed it



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/4/2022 10:03:02 PM)

Another game with 15 leaders killed Turn 1 Bread(RedJohn) vs Beethoven1

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5141454




Zovs -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/4/2022 10:09:23 PM)

Did a search and the Soviets lost 416 general officers, so not sure of the new ratio of lost currently in the game.



Stamb -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/4/2022 10:15:16 PM)

15% chance for non isolated leader to die is not working
Check previous page for my math. It is closer to 50%. If not more



xhoel -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/5/2022 2:22:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Did a search and the Soviets lost 416 general officers, so not sure of the new ratio of lost currently in the game.


Both sides lost a lot of leaders in combat. It was part of the leading from the front mentality. The issue is that a lot of those commanders were lower level ones that WitE 2 does not simulate. So losing a regimental/battalion/brigade or division commander is not reflected in the game.

As such, seeing a lot of higher level leaders (in this case Corps and Army commanders) dying like flies is just too much and not based on historical records. Whatever the current KIA rates are, should be toned down.



Zovs -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/5/2022 3:22:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Did a search and the Soviets lost 416 general officers, so not sure of the new ratio of lost currently in the game.


Both sides lost a lot of leaders in combat. It was part of the leading from the front mentality. The issue is that a lot of those commanders were lower level ones that WitE 2 does not simulate. So losing a regimental/battalion/brigade or division commander is not reflected in the game.

As such, seeing a lot of higher level leaders (in this case Corps and Army commanders) dying like flies is just too much and not based on historical records. Whatever the current KIA rates are, should be toned down.


Sounds reasonable. When I did the search what caught my eye was general officers and I must have translated that in my head to staff officers, lol.



AlbertN -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/5/2022 4:16:19 PM)

I agree on the fact there should not be a HQ-Leader replacement during the same turn or maybe it can be another special rule for the first turns of the Grand Campaign. That the Soviets are slow at replacing their leaders?




M60A3TTS -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/5/2022 4:50:01 PM)

A couple things to add to the conversation. First, no Soviet commanders at any level were being flown out of pockets at the start of the war. Second, what few leaders were during the war, they were army level at least. I have my doubts that anyone at the corps level would have been deemed necessary for rescue with the sole exception perhaps being Rokossovsky had he found himself in such a predicament. Leaders like Tolbukhin and Malinovsky were still an unknown quality at this stage. Second, when leaders flew out, or even in, such as Zhukov to Leningrad in 1941, and Paulus in 1942 at Stalingrad it was not a high risk operation relatively speaking. In fact I know of no leaders who died in transit by enemy aircraft fire. In Zhukov's memoirs he stated that while flying into Leningrad, they went in unescorted, were pursued by a couple German aircraft for a time but escaped unscathed. They had also radioed for assistance by their own fighters that were on the ground at the time, but none ever appeared and Zhukov never found out why. Third, Soviet leaders who died at the early stages of the war particularly if surrounded didn't have replacement leaders flown in. He would simply be replaced by the unit Chief of Staff or whoever was the highest ranking officer at the time.

Maybe if it could be coded, when a leader of a unit is killed, a temporary flag is set on the unit and the assigned replacement leader cannot be killed. Once the turn ends, the flag would be removed.



Joel Billings -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/5/2022 4:53:08 PM)

I've done several tests displacing around 60 HQs each time that are not-isolated, and got results from a low of 4 to a high of 18 (more common result is around 8). In any case, I'm not getting 50% against in-supply HQs. I'm using a save someone sent me where I can easily displace a large number of Soviet HQs. We used that save (and another with isolated HQs) to test the fix and it seems to be working as it should from our tests (but with the big variation possible as shown in the tests I just did.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/5/2022 7:28:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

I've done several tests displacing around 60 HQs each time that are not-isolated, and got results from a low of 4 to a high of 18 (more common result is around 8). In any case, I'm not getting 50% against in-supply HQs. I'm using a save someone sent me where I can easily displace a large number of Soviet HQs. We used that save (and another with isolated HQs) to test the fix and it seems to be working as it should from our tests (but with the big variation possible as shown in the tests I just did.


The "nail" that seals this coffin shut.




Nikel -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/6/2022 6:52:02 PM)

For reference, a list of senior soviet commanders who died along the war with several references, the last A. A. Stepanov, "the figure was 472 who died during the years of the Great Patriotic War, a general, an admiral and equal senior military leaders (including 268 who died at the front, 25 died in captivity, 56 were repressed, 123 died and died for non-combat reasons in the rear)." (Google translation).


472 deads/215 turns = 2,2 deads per turn.

https://tinyurl.com/2p8tcw57



Though in the references I do not see A Maslov, the author of the book that translated Glantz.


[image]https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51yrnCfWnRL._SX342_SY445_QL70_ML2_.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/7/2022 3:57:29 AM)

Hypothetical question here.

What happens if "ALL" the leaders in the game gets killed off that are available and a replacement is not available to fill the HQ. What happens then in the game?


***I know this will probably NEVER happen but what happens if it does? Is there a Generic leader that comes into being for the HQ? I know this is stupid but I am always curious ***



King-Salomon -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/7/2022 10:36:43 AM)

don't forget, "killed" leaders in WitE2 are not only the killed ones but also the captured ones in RL.



DesertedFox -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/7/2022 10:52:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikel

For reference, a list of senior soviet commanders who died along the war with several references, the last A. A. Stepanov, "the figure was 472 who died during the years of the Great Patriotic War, a general, an admiral and equal senior military leaders (including 268 who died at the front, 25 died in captivity, 56 were repressed, 123 died and died for non-combat reasons in the rear)." (Google translation).


472 deads/215 turns = 2,2 deads per turn.

https://tinyurl.com/2p8tcw57


Though in the references I do not see A Maslov, the author of the book that translated Glantz.




The leaders in the game represent only the Commander of the corp, army, army group, or front.

They do not represent the various senior officers attached to the HQ's depending on their level, such as Intelligence, 2nd IC, Artillery, and Air Liason officers to name some off the top of my head.

That figure of 472 will include more of these types of officers than the actual commanders.




KenchiSulla -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/7/2022 12:57:27 PM)

Two things I think are important to consider before making any changes:

- What would happen in real life when a leader dies? He gets replaced, there is no end of list....
- How many leaders are rated highly in game (arguably the "end war" performance level) without actually being bloodied to earn the rating....



Nikel -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/7/2022 1:05:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertedFox



The leaders in the game represent only the Commander of the corp, army, army group, or front.

They do not represent the various senior officers attached to the HQ's depending on their level, such as Intelligence, 2nd IC, Artillery, and Air Liason officers to name some off the top of my head.

That figure of 472 will include more of these types of officers than the actual commanders.





Yes, in the list there are commanders that are not in the game.

IMHO too many are killed or removed right now.

I guess an average of 2 per turn along the war would be OK.

Of course the Soviets won the war, if the result would have been the contrary, more would have died one way or the other, so 2 is a good historical result if they end in Berlin.

But what if the Germans end in the Urals?





Nikel -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/7/2022 8:07:09 PM)

Another list, army commanders, pity they are not numerated.

I count:

246 (normal, guards, shock and other armies).

19 (tank armies).

11 (air defence armies).

27 (air armies).

25 (sapper armies). "Sapper", but reading the biography of some of them, looks like "slaves" armies. I guess these are not in the game.



Anyway among them there were 30 deaths:

21 in battle.

2 "repressed".

2 suicide to avoid captivity.

2 in accidents (1 plane and 1 car).

1 disease.

1 missing.

1 died in captivity.


So 30 deaths in 328 (sappers ignored), 1:11 or 9%.

30 in 215 turns, 1 death every 7 turns.



I did not review all of them, but at least 2 (not the deaths, the list in general) are missing in the game:

Oka I. Gorodovikov, Colonel General since 1940 and commander of the 8th army in 1941.

Vasily G. Ryazanov, 1st assault aviation corps, and Lieutenant General of Aviation since March 17, 1943.


https://tinyurl.com/4cw8vy22



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/8/2022 11:02:11 PM)



quote:

ORIGINAL: Beethoven1


Good thing that I am not using generals/HQs this game, or I would be pissed!

[image]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/908135521279180823/940448662448906240/1189.JPG[/image]



Post 52 of this thread. More dead leaders.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5141454&mpage=2&key=�




Cavalry Corp -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/9/2022 5:39:26 PM)

I would like to see leaders wounded and captured - not just killed. And I think the kill rate probably is a bit too high.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/9/2022 6:17:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cavalry Corp

I would like to see leaders wounded and captured - not just killed. And I think the kill rate probably is a bit too high.


Seems the kill rate is a bit high, but it is what it is.

Need a Leader change and don't have or want to spend the AP? Well step right up we have a deal for you. Once the front line settles down just retreat a hex and put those HQ's on the front line to get that needed change for little or no cost. The rates are nice and you too can have that dream leader by sacrificing those old ones to the enemy :-P. OR BETTER YET! Just relocate the HQ until that dream leader shows up from relocation deaths, no front line service needed by the HQ then.




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/10/2022 12:33:41 AM)

quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: jubjub

quote:


Ya, Joel Billings said that the numbers are what he expects for leader kills. I am totally ok with that. But for killing of good leaders for the Soviets up front the first few turns, I call it "Bullshit" in my own opinion. You have to play to "save" good leaders with the Soviets now. It is a perfect strategy for Germany to pursue & I am sure it will be going forward. I know I will the next time I take up Germany. As for the Soviets you might as well "relocate" your HQ's out of the pocket & try to save them. BUT you have to relocate them during the Air phase, if you do it in the Ground phase they love to relocate back towards the enemy!!!!!! A few of mine did!


I'm still not convinced that the 15% rate is being applied to HQ's that displaced out of a pocket earlier in the turn. I have had too many occasions where the same HQ's keep losing leaders at a very high rate after they've been displaced from a pocket.

Does anyone have a save they are using to test this stuff?


I am ok with the killing of leaders but the rate is not 15%, it is higher. The problem is tied to the "pseudo random number" I bet. In theory if 100 HQ's are displaced then 15 of them should have a leader casualty. We aren't having that since K62 in our game did not displace 100 HQ's. He maybe displaced maybe up to 25ish and some a couple of times. The simple math dictates that that is not 15%. It seems on the first turn that when a German completes a pocket it treats it as surrounded and could be applying the 50% kill rate. Guess on my part but seems likely.



Brought this from another post in an AAR to here. The post came from this AAR
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5141454&mpage=2&key=



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