RE: Beta Patch VVS performance

RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (Full Version)

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loki100 -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/8/2022 4:13:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK Right now, the main meta-strategy of the German players is to withdraw all aircraft from the Eastern Front to other theaters and instead bring more infantry to the Eastern Front. German players don't feel the need or need for air support in the game at the moment. The excessive fragility of aviation only contributes to this. ... don't make such ready assumptions 1) I put a lot of effort into using the LW from the satrt to the end of the game, the only time I strip it down is for the winter of 41-42 when I reduce it to the fighters and a few tac bombers 2) I always use GS, incl in the Soviet turn and it pays off constantly

xhoel -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/8/2022 4:23:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK Right now, the main meta-strategy of the German players is to withdraw all aircraft from the Eastern Front to other theaters and instead bring more infantry to the Eastern Front. German players don't feel the need or need for air support in the game at the moment. Why do you always make assumptions that are wrong and usually not based on any kind of evidence? 1) I use the LW sparingly and try to concentrate them in sectors to achieve local superiority. I dont withdraw my fighters to other TBs and I dont know where you are seeing this happening. In my game the Soviets are able to do quite well against the LW, exchanging 2:1 in losses. 2) I use GS whenever possible and both me, loki100 and Rosencrantus have commented on this thread that GS is good at disrupting ground elements and also at hitting artillery. So on this thread only, you have 3 German players that use GS, contrary to what you are claiming. And in every forum asking about the usage of air force, its always GS that is recommended as a mechanic that players should use more.

jubjub -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/8/2022 4:26:45 PM)
quote: 1) I use the LW sparingly and try to concentrate them in sectors to achieve local superiority. I dont withdraw my fighters to other TBs and I dont know where you are seeing this happening. In my game the Soviets are able to do quite well against the LW, exchanging 2:1 in losses. This loss ratio is what I saw in my previous '41 campaigns by '42. However, my current campaigns just see the VVS blown out of the sky with no recourse.

ShaggyHiK -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/8/2022 4:31:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xhoel Why do you always make assumptions that are wrong and usually not based on any kind of evidence? 1) I use the LW sparingly and try to concentrate them in sectors to achieve local superiority. I dont withdraw my fighters to other TBs and I dont know where you are seeing this happening. In my game the Soviets are able to do quite well against the LW, exchanging 2:1 in losses. 2) I use GS whenever possible and both me, loki100 and Rosencrantus have commented on this thread that GS is good at disrupting ground elements and also at hitting artillery. So on this thread only, you have 3 German players that use GS, contrary to what you are claiming. And in every forum asking about the usage of air force, its always GS that is recommended as a mechanic that players should use more. Of course, I can give screenshots from games where I see African troops in the east and do not see German Ju-87s. But this will not prove anything, it will only show the difference in how you play and how others play. The bottom line here is that you can consistently see that from the German side most of the aviation is displayed on the theater of operations, for the sake of additional divisions that will obviously bring more benefits than aviation. I also don't think that aviation should be tied specifically to GS, aviation operations and gaining air supremacy are associated with GA, REC and SUP missions. It is impossible to gain air superiority without reconnaissance of enemy airfields, without strikes against them and without fighter flights to control enemy airfields. GS - should be effective when enemy aircraft in the area are either weak enough or completely absent.

xhoel -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/8/2022 4:36:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK The bottom line here is that you can consistently see that from the German side most of the aviation is displayed on the theater of operations, for the sake of additional divisions that will obviously bring more benefits than aviation. Thats not how the TB requirement system works though. Consistently? You are the first player that has mentioned this. I havent seen this in any AARs so far. Please point them out to me if there are so many of these cases.

Stamb -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/8/2022 4:41:08 PM)
xhoel and ShaggyHiK no point to discuss how it was before, before GS was pretty much useless Now, with 0.19 patch, GS is showing much better results. Axis players will use bombers again, if they will be able to bring enough supplies for them.

ShaggyHiK -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/8/2022 4:50:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xhoel Thats not how the TB requirement system works though. Consistently? You are the first player that has mentioned this. I havent seen this in any AARs so far. Please point them out to me if there are so many of these cases. This is an example from a 4v4 game. More specifically, Beethoven, my opponent on the other side of the front line, can tell here. Also in other games for which the AAR is not conducted, I also see examples of the use of precisely the almost complete withdrawal of German aviation to the theater.

Rosencrantus -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/8/2022 4:55:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stamb xhoel and ShaggyHiK no point to discuss how it was before, before GS was pretty much useless Now, with 0.19 patch, GS is showing much better results. Axis players will use bombers again, if they will be able to bring enough supplies for them. Useless on the defensive, on older patches GS wasn't as good (i.e not many destroyed/damaged but still provided a lot of disruptions on the offensive.

Stamb -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/8/2022 5:03:49 PM)
I saw multiple posts, and experienced that by myself that pretty often it was 1,2,3 elements disrupted. After it I told f**k it and send bombers to reserve/TBs.

vvs007 -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/8/2022 5:05:01 PM)
it seems that behind many details and tools of air warfare, the DEV have lost the most important thing - to show the huge impact of air superiority and how important it is to challenge it ... today the meta strategy for Soviet aviation is to put it in reserve until the 1944 ... leave a few fighters in depth, hoping to shoot down a few scouts, bombers .... if the mechanics are pushing for non-historical decisions, then such mechanics are broken ... in fact, the Soviets fought hard and won air superiority to 1944 .. first changing fighters 1 to 5, then to 3 , and then they became equal and better ... that's how the irl war was won. the Soviet player is concentrating a huge number of troops to strike in the summer of 41 - this is not historical, because irl LW thwarted such strikes, the total air superiority prevented the Russians from moving, supplying, kill artillery,... LW recon helped for german divizions to prepare to repel such counterattacks... it is strange for me that in simpler schemes in TOAW 4 and HOI4 it works, but not in WITE2 :)

ShaggyHiK -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/8/2022 5:12:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vvs007 it seems that behind many details and tools of air warfare, the DEV have lost the most important thing - to show the huge impact of air superiority and how important it is to challenge it ... today the meta strategy for Soviet aviation is to put it in reserve until the 1944 ... leave a few fighters in depth, hoping to shoot down a few scouts, bombers .... if the mechanics are pushing for non-historical decisions, then such mechanics are broken ... in fact, the Soviets fought hard and won air superiority to 1944 .. first changing fighters 1 to 5, then to 3 , and then they became equal and better ... that's how the irl war was won. the Soviet player is concentrating a huge number of troops to strike in the summer of 41 - this is not historical, because irl LW thwarted such strikes, the total air superiority prevented the Russians from moving, supplying, kill artillery,... LW recon helped for german divizions to prepare to repel such counterattacks... it is strange for me that in simpler schemes in TOAW 4 and HOI4 it works, but not in WITE2 :) Adjusting the balance in such simple games as HoI4 is much easier. You will never see environments in HoI, and if this happens, then in fact the opponent who allowed the environment lost. In this case, it is not worth citing such an arcade game as HoI as an example. The depth of gameplay in wite2 is undeniable. Therefore, accurately reflecting all aspects of a real war is a laborious task, by changing aviation you also affect the ground component, and if everything is not taken into account and corrected, you will get one-sided games.

AlbertN -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/11/2022 5:27:15 PM)
VVS is just insane in the most recent patch, in general there is a bucket of losses across the whole front if the VVS gets in action. I've started 2 new games and pratically the Germans suffer greatly out of pure VVS bombing. The Luftwaffe does not cope - when they intercept it's all good. But when they do not ...

ShaggyHiK -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/12/2022 12:31:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AlbertN VVS is just insane in the most recent patch, in general there is a bucket of losses across the whole front if the VVS gets in action. I've started 2 new games and pratically the Germans suffer greatly out of pure VVS bombing. The Luftwaffe does not cope - when they intercept it's all good. But when they do not ... So after all, this is reflected in the documents of the German and Soviet sides, when their own aircraft cease to cover the battlefield for some reason. Questions immediately arise in the documents, where is our aviation? Organize a cover. We are being hit and we are losing... The USSR has exactly the same problems. If you think that the Soviet player does not feel the strikes of your aircraft, you are mistaken. He often hurts more than you.

AlbertN -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/12/2022 12:37:50 AM)
@Shaggy - Sorry but you do not play the game enough from my perspective ... here how much the 70+ LW bombers cope: (This is from my Soviet game) [image]local://upfiles/36315/DFA42623F8D1401E9A6C3B84C8518987.jpg[/image]

AlbertN -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/12/2022 12:39:03 AM)
All the while, unopposed VVS bombers ... [image]local://upfiles/36315/14DAD150FCF1441FA630A53E602C8573.jpg[/image]

ShaggyHiK -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/12/2022 12:42:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AlbertN @Shaggy - Sorry but you do not play the game enough from my perspective ... here how much the 70+ LW bombers cope: (This is from my Soviet game) I am sure that in this case you did not use a large caliber of bombs, although the USSR has 2 fortifications. Secondly, you use Ju-88 and He-111 line aircraft for ground support, do you understand that these aircraft are not suitable for direct ground support? You make mistakes at the preparation stage and when you see unsuccessful fights, you think that everything is lost. And even in such a situation, your planes were able to suppress 1/4 of the Soviet guns.

AlbertN -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/12/2022 12:43:57 AM)
I am the Soviet here - red screen if you can see Shaggy.

ShaggyHiK -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/12/2022 12:53:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AlbertN I am the Soviet here - red screen if you can see Shaggy. The only thing I disagree with is that the IL-2 was so good at destroying a whole battalion of Stugs. 13 out of 15 by the actions of one aviation is, of course, not realistic. And the fact that you are on the Soviet side does not change the main message. That on the German side the use of aviation in battle was with incorrect settings. Again, speaking of aviation, one must understand that German aviation could dominate a narrow section of the front, but in other directions, there are constant complaints about losses from Soviet aviation from German ground units. And there is nothing strange in the fact that Soviet pilots, without encountering resistance, can hit targets. But this is not a problem of air efficiency, this is a problem of the replenishment system, which prioritizes the African direction of the western front and other theaters of war of the German player. The issue here is that in the current replenishment system, the German player is not able to replenish losses.

ShaggyHiK -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/12/2022 1:05:28 AM)
There is a fine line here, in reality the German army suffered heavy losses precisely on the Soviet-German front. And no matter how anyone would like to say that the actions of the Americans and the British brought some significant effect, the German army suffered a much larger part of the losses in the East. Especially if we talk about 41-42-43 and this is just as true, and it's hard to argue, and for most of the 44 years. A huge part of the replenishment went precisely to the East. In the game, the Soviet player is not able to inflict significant losses on the German player most of the game time. Logistical losses are always an order of magnitude higher than losses incurred in battles or air actions, but also the German player is not able to make up for any losses in the East due to the fact that probably 80% of replenishments go to parts behind the map, which is not true. There is a fine line of customization here. If the German player gets the opportunity to replenish, but the Soviet player cannot inflict losses, then the German army will not sag, as it happened in reality. If the Soviet player can inflict more casualties, but the German player does not get the opportunity to replenish, then the German army will end too quickly. And both variants are of course anti-historical, and break the atmosphere of the war. And here you need an integrated approach. Which, on the one hand, will allow the Soviet player to increase the losses inflicted on the German army, but on the other hand, give the German player the opportunity to make up for these losses.

Stamb -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/12/2022 8:23:35 AM)
I have similar experience as Albert. Air support is super effective vs AT guns and arty. I had no chance to use my own bombers yet. It is blizzard turns right now. Without air support guns losses are 1:2. With it is 1:1. Is it reincarnation of arty patch, but in terms of flying artillery? [image]https://i.imgur.com/r7QOKmG.jpg[/image] [image]https://i.imgur.com/OIhkIbj.jpg[/image]

Stamb -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/12/2022 8:30:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK ... In the game, the Soviet player is not able to inflict significant losses on the German player most of the game time. ... If only German player could inflict historical ~5 mil Soviet losses in `41 instead of 2.5, maximum 3 mil like it is right now...

ShaggyHiK -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/12/2022 12:23:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stamb quote: ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK ... In the game, the Soviet player is not able to inflict significant losses on the German player most of the game time. ... If only German player could inflict historical ~5 mil Soviet losses in `41 instead of 2.5, maximum 3 mil like it is right now... If the Soviet player suffers such losses in 41, then he will end up somewhere on the line Arkhangelsk - Saratov - Astrakhan. Would you be interested in playing this? Unless you do not need difficulties, but only a relaxed game like with counter-strike cheats

Nikel -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/12/2022 12:39:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK quote: ORIGINAL: Stamb quote: ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK ... In the game, the Soviet player is not able to inflict significant losses on the German player most of the game time. ... If only German player could inflict historical ~5 mil Soviet losses in `41 instead of 2.5, maximum 3 mil like it is right now... If the Soviet player suffers such losses in 41, then he will end up somewhere on the line Arkhangelsk - Saratov - Astrakhan. Would you be interested in playing this? Unless you do not need difficulties, but only a relaxed game like with counter-strike cheats Should not. Depending on the source 4,4-4,8 Million casualties in 1941 and the front was far from the one you describe. More or less the historical line, before winter offensive, vs the line you describe in the game map. [image]https://i.postimg.cc/05H1hwxd/Lines.png[/image]

DesertedFox -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/12/2022 12:39:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK quote: ORIGINAL: Stamb quote: ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK ... In the game, the Soviet player is not able to inflict significant losses on the German player most of the game time. ... If only German player could inflict historical ~5 mil Soviet losses in `41 instead of 2.5, maximum 3 mil like it is right now... If the Soviet player suffers such losses in 41, then he will end up somewhere on the line Arkhangelsk - Saratov - Astrakhan. Would you be interested in playing this? Unless you do not need difficulties, but only a relaxed game like with counter-strike cheats Let's have a look at an example of a game. T53 - 21 Jun 1942- Russian casualties 6.586 million men. Fair to say they had 5 million casualties in 41. https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5110929&mpage=1&key= Let's now look at how that ended. June 43, Russian player concedes. https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5110929&mpage=19&key= Yes, we definitely need more games with Russians casualties reaching 5 million in 41 so as they can surrender mid 43.

Nikel -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/12/2022 1:04:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesertedFox Let's have a look at an example of a game. T53 - 21 Jun 1942- Russian casualties 6.586 million men. Fair to say they had 5 million casualties in 41. https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5110929&mpage=1&key= Let's now look at how that ended. June 43, Russian player concedes. https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5110929&mpage=19&key= Yes, we definitely need more games with Russians casualties reaching 5 million in 41 so as they can surrender mid 43. And how many were the historical casualties in 1941 + the first half of 1942? More than that. And still they did not surrender.

AlbertN -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/12/2022 1:27:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesertedFox quote: ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK quote: ORIGINAL: Stamb quote: ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK ... In the game, the Soviet player is not able to inflict significant losses on the German player most of the game time. ... If only German player could inflict historical ~5 mil Soviet losses in `41 instead of 2.5, maximum 3 mil like it is right now... If the Soviet player suffers such losses in 41, then he will end up somewhere on the line Arkhangelsk - Saratov - Astrakhan. Would you be interested in playing this? Unless you do not need difficulties, but only a relaxed game like with counter-strike cheats Let's have a look at an example of a game. T53 - 21 Jun 1942- Russian casualties 6.586 million men. Fair to say they had 5 million casualties in 41. https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5110929&mpage=1&key= Let's now look at how that ended. June 43, Russian player concedes. https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5110929&mpage=19&key= Yes, we definitely need more games with Russians casualties reaching 5 million in 41 so as they can surrender mid 43. Seeing that you brought in my AAR as reference - I'd like to underline that '41 was ever relative there and both players have made a few statements on what they feel that may have led to the '43 wrapping. If then one desires to just look at numbers and think 'Ah there is the mandatory outcome' then do so, but it's just a partial insight of facts.

Stamb -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/12/2022 2:07:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK If the Soviet player suffers such losses in 41, then he will end up somewhere on the line Arkhangelsk - Saratov - Astrakhan. Would you be interested in playing this? Unless you do not need difficulties, but only a relaxed game like with counter-strike cheats It would be not interesting. Game should be balanced. You was saying that Axis do not suffer historical losses, and I replied that Soviets do not suffer it either. I would be glad to have historical losses for both sides and ability to counter attack for the Soviets. quote: ORIGINAL: DesertedFox Sure lets look only on a games where Soviets lose. What about this one were panzers were completely trashed and Axis gave up? https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5135309 And how close to a historical frontline do we get here with 2.5 mil losses in `41? https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4992932 What happens when we count Axis and Soviet victories in this topic? https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5076008 In ideal world it should be 50/50, I believe. What do we have now?

DesertedFox -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/12/2022 2:11:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AlbertN quote: ORIGINAL: DesertedFox quote: ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK quote: ORIGINAL: Stamb quote: ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK ... In the game, the Soviet player is not able to inflict significant losses on the German player most of the game time. ... If only German player could inflict historical ~5 mil Soviet losses in `41 instead of 2.5, maximum 3 mil like it is right now... If the Soviet player suffers such losses in 41, then he will end up somewhere on the line Arkhangelsk - Saratov - Astrakhan. Would you be interested in playing this? Unless you do not need difficulties, but only a relaxed game like with counter-strike cheats Let's have a look at an example of a game. T53 - 21 Jun 1942- Russian casualties 6.586 million men. Fair to say they had 5 million casualties in 41. https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5110929&mpage=1&key= Let's now look at how that ended. June 43, Russian player concedes. https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5110929&mpage=19&key= Yes, we definitely need more games with Russians casualties reaching 5 million in 41 so as they can surrender mid 43. Seeing that you brought in my AAR as reference - I'd like to underline that '41 was ever relative there and both players have made a few statements on what they feel that may have led to the '43 wrapping. If then one desires to just look at numbers and think 'Ah there is the mandatory outcome' then do so, but it's just a partial insight of facts. I make a number of points re your AAR. 1. The Russian casualties in 41 were 5 million or thereabouts. The number you require to have a balanced game. Balanced in this sense means the Russians resign in mid 43, as that is what happened in your game. 2. The circumstances that come about for the Russians to lose this number of troops will mean 41 was a disaster in WITE2 terms, not the historical war the game is based upon. 3. It is my contention and I am not alone, that should the Russians in WITE2 lose 5 million men in 41 the most likely outcome will be a German victory. 4. I am not disputing the historical losses the Russians incurred, but rather that this historical figure needs to be reached to have a "balanced" game.

DesertedFox -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/12/2022 2:19:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stamb quote: ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK If the Soviet player suffers such losses in 41, then he will end up somewhere on the line Arkhangelsk - Saratov - Astrakhan. Would you be interested in playing this? Unless you do not need difficulties, but only a relaxed game like with counter-strike cheats It would be not interesting. Game should be balanced. You was saying that Axis do not suffer historical losses, and I replied that Soviets do not suffer it either. I would be glad to have historical losses for both sides and ability to counter attack for the Soviets. quote: ORIGINAL: DesertedFox Sure lets look only on a games where Soviets lose. What about this one were panzers were completely trashed and Axis gave up? https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5135309 And how close to a historical frontline do we get here with 2.5 mil losses in `41? https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4992932 What happens when we count Axis and Soviet victories in this topic? https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5076008 In ideal world it should be 50/50, I believe. What do we have now? I am not sure why you are posting these stats now and referencing them to what I said. I said that 5 million Russian casualties in 41 will most likely result in a German victory. I have never said that the game in its current form is "balanced" so you inferring that I think it is, is false and misleading. I have said that the patch after (and those following on from) the arty patch is the most balanced we have since the game began. I do believe the Germans are still behind the eight ball but maybe not as much as the German fan club.

Stamb -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/12/2022 2:25:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesertedFox I am not sure why you are posting these stats now and referencing them to what I said. I said that 5 million Russian casualties in 41 will most likely result in a German victory. I have never said that the game in its current form is "balanced" so you inferring that I think it is, is false and misleading. I have said that the patch after (and those following on from) the arty patch is the most balanced we have since the game began. I do believe the Germans are still behind the eight ball but maybe not as much as the German fan club. You made your posts in such a way that shows that 2.5 mil losses are auto victory for the Axis. Especially with this one: quote: Yes, we definitely need more games with Russians casualties reaching 5 million in 41 so as they can surrender mid 43. Which I countered with other AARs.

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