RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (Full Version)

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DesertedFox -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/12/2022 2:50:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertedFox
I am not sure why you are posting these stats now and referencing them to what I said.

I said that 5 million Russian casualties in 41 will most likely result in a German victory.

I have never said that the game in its current form is "balanced" so you inferring that I think it is, is false and misleading.

I have said that the patch after (and those following on from) the arty patch is the most balanced we have since the game began.

I do believe the Germans are still behind the eight ball but maybe not as much as the German fan club.

You made your posts in such a way that shows that 2.5 mil losses are auto victory for the Axis.
Especially with this one:

quote:

Yes, we definitely need more games with Russians casualties reaching 5 million in 41 so as they can surrender mid 43.


Which I countered with other AARs.



You're hilarious.

I said 5 million Russian casualties will most likely be a win for the Axis.

I have never made a comment or an inference on 2.5 losses to date but I will make one now.

2.5 million casualties for the Russians in 41 is most likely a Russian win.








malyhin1517 -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/13/2022 8:00:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel


quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK

The bottom line here is that you can consistently see that from the German side most of the aviation is displayed on the theater of operations, for the sake of additional divisions that will obviously bring more benefits than aviation.



Thats not how the TB requirement system works though.

Consistently? You are the first player that has mentioned this. I havent seen this in any AARs so far. Please point them out to me if there are so many of these cases.

I don't write AAR for my games, but I do get most of the fighters and long-range bombers out of the map, as well as recon because I don't see its effectiveness in the game. On the map, I leave only part of the fighters and tactical bombers for ground support. The withdrawal of aviation to other theaters makes it possible to provide these theaters with the necessary amount of aviation and partially release infantry from there to the map. In addition, for this I actively use allies, especially Italians! After finishing balancing the theaters, I return the remnants of aviation from the reserve to the map. But in winter, I remove it from the map, since there is not enough supply for aviation.



Stamb -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/13/2022 8:04:19 PM)

Right now GS is doing much more damage. That is why it is worth keeping them on a map.

I see no way how you can reinforce other TBs with aviation to such a degree that it will allow you to pull divisions. At least from an Axis side.
There is a cap of how much value airplanes can add. And even with default units it is pretty much capped. Except of Soviet Garrison



malyhin1517 -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/13/2022 8:18:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

Right now GS is doing much more damage. That is why it is worth keeping them on a map.

I see no way how you can reinforce other TBs with aviation to such a degree that it will allow you to pull divisions. At least from an Axis side.
There is a cap of how much value airplanes can add. And even with default units it is pretty much capped. Except of Soviet Garrison

I am aware of the limitations. But the Germans have many theatres. You also take into account artillery, construction units, air defense and then you can get extra infantry divisions. And if, instead of a map, Italians are sent to Western Europe, then there will be even more German infantry on the map!



Stamb -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/14/2022 9:47:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

Would be nice to know if Axis side can except same results with their GS and if this changes were intended or some side effect?

I guess I have an answer.

Soviets attack (loadout 100kg bombs + rockets):
[image]https://i.imgur.com/ji4XZb8.jpg[/image]

2 150mm howitzers destroyed + some AT guns, and 16! howitzers disrupted
Same pattern was in a previous turns. Howitzers and AT guns as a main target. Some destroyed, much more disrupted. Few elements damaged.

I was able to get my aviation to a front, as there was a forecast for a snowfall instead of blizzard so I could finally use my bombers and show a real power of Luftwaffe.
Boom!
[image]https://i.imgur.com/GqhCFJt.jpg[/image]

0 destroyed, 0 damaged, some support disrupted along side with mortars and a total of 4 howitzers.

Hmm. Maybe I am a newbie and should switch to a serious bombs instead of 50kg toys?

Lets try 1000kg bombs. For sure they will do kaput to a Soviets!

[image]https://i.imgur.com/OwN6lxy.jpg[/image]

1 support destroyed, 0 damaged, 2 howitzers destroyed


I would like to believe that this is a joke:


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

Would be nice to know if Axis side can except same results with their GS and if this changes were intended or some side effect?


of course not, the entire game is an anti-german design [8D]

or more sensibly, it was always intended there was a bonus if one side just went and hid so if that is now happening then yes both sides gain


But I can not. I literally think that it is anti german design! And I have reasons to think so.

And before ShaggyHiK says that IL2 is the best plane ever. I totally agree. It is. Even better than a modern planes. No doubts that modern Russia is keeping it for a day X in a secret places.



Stamb -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/14/2022 9:52:07 PM)

And yes, I am using 02.19 beta, not some older patches

[image]local://upfiles/82464/DFD2FFE62A1E41FF81103A0B7ADA3234.jpg[/image]



Lovenought -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/14/2022 10:00:27 PM)

I think the HE111 is a level bomber? In that same campaign, my SB-2S and Pe-2s are rarely doing more than a few disruptions. It's the IL-2s and Biplane bombers that do most of the damage (along with fighters set to ground attack).

You should try setting some of your 99 XP Pilots to ground attack and see what it does. Even with the malus from being trained as fighters, I assume the extreme XP will more than compensate. Or you could retrain some as Attacker pilots.



Stamb -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/14/2022 10:03:31 PM)

Sure. You want to trick me, Lovenought is my opponent in this game :), to make my fighters useless. No way.



Jango32 -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/14/2022 10:04:33 PM)

What about Stukas instead of He-111s and Ju-88s?



Stamb -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/14/2022 10:05:44 PM)

They are out of action as blizzard is coming and I have no airbases in the cities to hide them.



Stamb -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/14/2022 10:09:19 PM)

But I will try tactical bombers. As level bombers is no go for sure. Enormous amount of supply used to bring them to a front.



Stamb -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/14/2022 10:23:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32

What about Stukas instead of He-111s and Ju-88s?

Actually I found where to attack with Stukas.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/Uuesy3o.jpg[/image]
Result are closer to a Soviets one.

The only problem is flak losses, maybe they are same as historical, I do not know. But with production rate of 14 it means that Axis can use 1 GS attack per turn.

And I was attacking a hex that had only 2/0 flak.



Stamb -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/14/2022 10:59:18 PM)

But Soviets should also suffer from flak losses, right?
No. 0 losses from flak


[image]local://upfiles/82464/ED5C9463DC5D45C5B04D7AC1A972A96F.jpg[/image]



AlbertN -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/14/2022 11:27:01 PM)

For what I've experienced German Flak atm is useless for GS.
Also Flak that is into HQ brought adjacent to the ground attack to come do not intervene at all in this case. (I litterally tried in T1 to bring a HQ loaded with the LW type of flak all along but ...)

So I assume at this stage the LW-Type of Flak SU should be also attacheable to units ontop of being sorted?

And yes Soviet Flak is already uber in '41.



jubjub -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/16/2022 11:08:59 PM)

Don't expect much from level bombers besides disruption.


[image]local://upfiles/80089/53820628DC2741408BAAED708989C6E1.jpg[/image]



Stamb -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/16/2022 11:12:51 PM)

You have 76 Ju87 which are tactical bombers. I'm sure without them results would be much worse



jubjub -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/16/2022 11:13:59 PM)

quote:

You have 76 Ju87 which are tactical bombers. I'm sure without them results would be much worse


This is a great result. The point is that tactical bombers are good.



Stamb -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/16/2022 11:20:07 PM)

They are. But I lost 25% of them in one attack due to AA in divisions. No AA SUs from Soviet side. I produce 14 per turn. In one attack I lost more than I produce. And it is with a dominance in the air. Soviet fighters were wiped out completely, 41 out of 41 plane.



ShaggyHiK -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/18/2022 8:54:18 AM)

You are somewhat wrong. IL-2 is a rather bad aircraft. Small bomb load, poor weight balance which severely limits maneuverability and other problems, but there are pluses.

The loss of pieces from air defense should be lower than that of the IL-2 due to the fact that the Ju-87 is an order of magnitude less time in the zone of effective air defense fire.

At the approach stage, the height is quite high, the air defenses do not conduct effective fire, at the dive stage, when it is relatively easy to hit the Ju-87 with fire, it is literally 15-30-40 seconds. After that, the exit from the battle occurs at a sufficiently high speed, but at a low altitude, and if there are forests, terrain folds or houses above the target, they will limit the ability to fire.

In contrast to the IL-2, which can be hit by anti-aircraft artillery fire at any stage of approach to the target, the stage of attack, the stage of exit from the battle. And it will always be low enough in the zone of effective fire of small-caliber anti-aircraft guns.

It is not serious to use the He-111 and Ju-88 as a combat support aircraft. It is better to use for example Hs-126 or Bf-109E, Bf-110 or FW-190, Hs-129.
Keep in mind that in the game the dive mechanic works crookedly, if at all, so Ju-87 incur sensitive losses.

As far as I understand, the difference in losses from anti-aircraft fire is in the amount of armor on the plane.
The IL-2 has an armor parameter of about 2. I can’t say from memory, but I can’t check to make sure I’m not mistaken.
When receiving hits from anti-aircraft guns, he apparently cuts off the damage received due to armor. If another Soviet aircraft without armor participated in the attack, it would have suffered higher losses.

But in fact, it still doesn’t work like that in real life, but it works in the game.

The Ju-87 has rather weak armor, and therefore the impact of anti-aircraft fire in the game is an order of magnitude higher.



Stamb -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/18/2022 9:10:08 AM)

We can theorize a lot of how it was IRL. But I have screens from by combats. I lost 22% of my tactical bombers in 1 attack. Soviets had only natural AA in their divisions. No additional AA support units. Before an attack I checked that hex at it was showing that Soviets have 2/0 flak. 2/0 means 2 low level flak AA value. It is not untypical to see this number. And it can be much higher, 3,4,5. What would happen in that case with tactical bombers?

During Soviet attack they lost 0 il2 planes or any other due to AA fire. There was reserve commitment from a panzer division with directly attracted AA unit. On map it shows as 1/0.
0 flak losses from Soviet side. Maybe it is due to armor, maybe not. I do not know. Maybe it was just bad luck. But if this pattern occurs in the next battles then we can not talk about any balance.

Quoting AlbertN from other thread:
"I stalled my new Axis games as soon as on T1 the VVS blasted away a bazillion of German guns across the board"



ShaggyHiK -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/18/2022 9:13:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

We can theorize a lot of how it was IRL. But I have screens from by combats. I lost 22% of my tactical bombers in 1 attack. Soviets had only natural AA in their divisions. No additional AA support units. Before an attack I checked that hex at it was showing that Soviets have 2/0 flak. 2/0 means 2 low level flak AA value. It is not untypical to see this number. And it can be much higher, 3,4,5. What would happen in that case with tactical bombers?

During Soviet attack they lost 0 il2 planes or any other due to AA fire. There was reserve commitment from a panzer division with directly attracted AA unit. On map it shows as 1/0.
0 flak losses from Soviet side. Maybe it is due to armor, maybe not. I do not know. Maybe it was just bad luck. But if this pattern occurs in the next battles then we can not talk about any balance.

Quoting AlbertN from other thread:
"I stalled my new Axis games as soon as on T1 the VVS blasted away a bazillion of German guns across the board"

An interesting comment from Albert, it is interesting to look at how he controlled aviation that the Soviet was able to make so much noise on the first or second move.



Lovenought -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/18/2022 9:15:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

They are. But I lost 25% of them in one attack due to AA in divisions. No AA SUs from Soviet side. I produce 14 per turn. In one attack I lost more than I produce. And it is with a dominance in the air. Soviet fighters were wiped out completely, 41 out of 41 plane.

The Soviet Anti-Tank Regiment actually uses the 85mm AA gun as it's primary equipment. Although that was still only one SU, to be fair.



Stamb -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/18/2022 9:17:43 AM)

You can check post 65 in this thread, first screenshot. Soviets kill/disrupt artillery/at guns in mass. Despite presence of my fighters (what would happen without them?). Probably it is the same for him.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lovenought


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

They are. But I lost 25% of them in one attack due to AA in divisions. No AA SUs from Soviet side. I produce 14 per turn. In one attack I lost more than I produce. And it is with a dominance in the air. Soviet fighters were wiped out completely, 41 out of 41 plane.

The Soviet Anti-Tank Regiment actually uses the 85mm AA gun as it's primary equipment. Although that was still only one SU, to be fair.

Aha.



ShaggyHiK -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/18/2022 9:20:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

I lost 22% of my tactical bombers in 1 attack.



This is not the first time I've come across the opinion "I lost 22% of my Air Force, I can't use it"

When in my game I lose 600-800 aircraft for the Soviet side. People look at me like I'm crazy, why are you doing this?

This is the essence of the problem. Someone wants to salt their planes so that they can be better preserved, and someone wants to influence the enemy, trying to somehow interfere with him and inflict losses.



Stamb -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/18/2022 9:32:11 AM)

I showed production rate of tactical bombers. In 1 attack I lost more than I produce. Yes, I will be not able to use it as there will be nothing to use. Its simple!



ShaggyHiK -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/18/2022 9:33:39 AM)

I think there is no need to feel sorry for your aviation. While the group has at least 10 aircraft. They should fly and try to be useful.

Try the GA task for your Ju-87s in the areas where you are going to attack.
Make a GA for your He-111s and Ju-88s by disrupting Soviet supply depots.
Create small groups of Ju-87s and FBs as Bombers for close air support.

Before that, build at least level 2 of the airfield. Using your building shelves so you don't suffer from depleting your planes too much.

Create a task for an experienced JG superiority group in this area, and of course organize reconnaissance of all these targets with your reconnaissance aircraft.

Perhaps you will make a mistake in something, and you will not do as well as you would like, you will suffer losses. Perhaps the enemy will fly, start hitting him at the airfields. Destroying the infrastructure of the airfield.
Force him to leave the area.

Fighting the enemy is always a loss, if you think that Soviet aviation is endless, you are mistaken. It is no less infinite than yours.



Stamb -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/18/2022 9:37:25 AM)

GA is banned as it has some weird interception rules.
JG are already trained to a max.
good luck trying to build airbases and expand them near a front (ju 87 range) with Axis supply in `41

On that note I have to take care of IRL things.



Lovenought -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/18/2022 9:37:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

I lost 22% of my tactical bombers in 1 attack.



This is not the first time I've come across the opinion "I lost 22% of my Air Force, I can't use it"

When in my game I lose 600-800 aircraft for the Soviet side. People look at me like I'm crazy, why are you doing this?

This is the essence of the problem. Someone wants to salt their planes so that they can be better preserved, and someone wants to influence the enemy, trying to somehow interfere with him and inflict losses.

Soviets and Germans are not really comparable. Soviets have enormous amounts of production and very low quality pilots. So the VVS is expendable.

Germans have excellent pilots but low production (in the early war, at least). They need to use their aircraft/pilots carefully.



ShaggyHiK -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/18/2022 9:45:15 AM)

How much is produced per Ju-88 and He-111 ro attack on airfields?
How many aircraft can be produced that can be used on a par with the Ju-87? Bf-110, 109?
You can continue to ban GA. But the fact that with GA interception occurs less often, in my opinion, this is normal.

I have explained the reasons for this more than once, but in fact you forbid fighting in a war.



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