Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results (Full Version)

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hossjww30 -> Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results (2/15/2022 5:04:04 PM)

I've played War in the East 1 for years. Loved it. Just started playing this one.

On turn one, I attacked the CV 7 Soviet tank division with a Panzer division and a mechanized infantry division.

The results were almost all my tanks were destroyed in the battle! I've had several other attacks in turn 1 with other panzer divisions with almost no losses. I don't understand. I never saw anything like this in WitE1. Also all the elements in the division have fatigue levels in the 90's.

Also, I've had over 400 airplane losses on turn 1 and the turn is only half over. This seems way too high. Most of the losses are operational.



hossjww30 -> RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results (2/15/2022 5:39:41 PM)

This game is garbage. None of this was caught in playtesting before release? How long has this game been out now? I've been playing it for a few hours and already realize the combat results are garbage.

In the first week of the campaign 4,990 Russian aircraft were claimed destroyed for the loss of 179 German machines. The biggest battles of the war to date took place as the German spearheads approached Minsk on 30 June. Large formations of unescorted Russian bombers were thrown in, one German unit alone (JG 91) claiming 114 of these.



hossjww30 -> RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results (2/15/2022 5:46:17 PM)

They basically charged people $79 to add roads (which have almost no affect on the game), screw up the air management system and add depots. Yes that's what I want to do - spend hours building depots and managing supplies.



ShaggyHiK -> RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results (2/15/2022 6:11:02 PM)

Your opinion is really very important, I suggest you go play more casual games like europa4 where you don't need to build warehouses!



Stamb -> RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results (2/15/2022 6:21:10 PM)

You can read any AAR in wite 2. `41 panzers are super bad against Soviet armor/mech units. And a lot of people complain about it. Right now you have to attack with motorized divisions and use panzers to flip hexes.



Stamb -> RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results (2/15/2022 6:25:17 PM)

I was not playing wite 1 but I read few AARs and watch few videos. Ideal mix would be something in between wite 1 where panzers are unstoppable force and wite 2 where they are very weak



Gazzas -> RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results (2/15/2022 7:20:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

You can read any AAR in wite 2. `41 panzers are super bad against Soviet armor/mech units. And a lot of people complain about it. Right now you have to attack with motorized divisions and use panzers to flip hexes.

This is what I want to understand. Why are Motorized Div's so powerful? They certainly could not have been in real life or LSSAH, Das Reich, and Totenkopf would never have been elevated to Pz divs.

What weapons do the Motorized divisions have that are so powerful that they can take on more tanks than a Panzer Div.



Stamb -> RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results (2/15/2022 7:22:35 PM)

This is what I am also trying to bring up. How motorized division can be more useful than a panzer one? If it was a case IRL then there would be no panzers at all. Why do Germans produce panzers when it is much cheaper to produce armor vehicles!



AlbertN -> RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results (2/15/2022 7:34:22 PM)

I believe it has been already underlined repeatedly how the Panzer divisions are brittle.

I do not know if it is due to the combat engine - since as a player I am clueless, I know I can attack, things shoots at thing, but is there maneuvering or other tactical play or it's just 'things get closer, things get in range, things shoot, things get closer, new range check, more things can shoot, rinse repeat).

Plus some subject computing of how effective (or not) sloping may have been aiding Soviet armour, forgetting then other variables such as metal quality and the like. But hey - that to me is already excess of data.

I do fully agree the 'game feel' is wrong, which is due to 'panzer = frail + hard to replace + limited in production' vs how the Infantry of the motorized divisions is simply easier to refit and repair upfront and thus they keep the punch while a panzer division could win some battles but then remains only in its motorized infantry component and it's maimed.



ImperatorAugustus -> RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results (2/15/2022 8:09:54 PM)

This is just a theory but I assume the problem has to do with the size/targeting. German AFVs are inferior in game at the start of Barb. Soviet experience is low, but with shear volume of fire they are landing hits. I'd suggest that tanks be much more affected by experience. Most soviet tanks crews had less than 2 hours inside their t34 at all. There is a report of a Pz3 firing 56 shots into a T34 and not destroying it. Which is both a testament to technological difference and the ineptitude of soviet tank crews.

Historically though the most effective German weapons against the T34 and KV1 early in the war were Flak 88s, Pioneers, Anti tank teams, and the Lefh 105 once the HEAT shell was made.



Stamb -> RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results (2/15/2022 8:25:45 PM)

This is a complex problem. IRL there was not enough training as you mentioned. A lot of tanks were not ready. There was not enough fuel/ammo. While in game Soviets have literally 0 problems with supplies/ammo/fuel. They can actually use supply priority 4 to store more than 100% of ammo which leads to an additional shots during a battle.



AlbertN -> RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results (2/15/2022 8:47:11 PM)

Another massive difference was that German panzer crews knew how to perform maitenance to their tanks. Soviet crews not.
So reliability here may not even reflect that.

A panzer that had a breakdown that did not required some heavy machinery intervention could be fixed by its crew.
Soviet crews were clueless. And pretty much had to wait technicians ...

That is broadly and widely documented in the Battle of Dubno but it came across the whole front and through '41 and '42 (I am ignorant of Soviet crew preparation for these matters in '43).



Stamb -> RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results (2/15/2022 8:51:03 PM)

Actually I was paying attention what happens with my damaged panzers, it was still `41 back then, and maybe few tanks are repaired if I am not moving per turn. I would expect that number to be higher. As they were not damaged during battles, just from moving.



carlkay58 -> RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results (2/15/2022 9:32:44 PM)

hoss - you picked a fight with the best Soviet Tank Division at the start of the war. It was fully equipped with T34s and KV1s. It was experienced and fully trained. In an actual battle account in early July that division was able to totally trash two panzer divisions who were unable to damage the Soviet tanks. When the 25 KV1s ran out of ammo, they were able to destroy another 15 to 20 Axis tanks by RUNNING THEM OVER!

The reality at the start of the war was that the German armor was a collection of out-dated equipment that was not up to the caliber of the Soviet T34 and KV1. The Germans were suffering from Victory Disease - what they had and fielded were able to defeat everyone else so why change it?

A large majority of the 41 Axis tank losses in the game are from disrupted elements which represents break downs and worn out equipment. Many of these can come back eventually with the rest being scrapped for parts. Infantry, on the other hand, were very effective against Soviet armor at this time because of the lack of Soviet training in combined arms tactics. A Soviet Tank division had very few, if any, infantry with it. Tanks did not have the visibility to counter infantry without supporting infantry. Even mechanized infantry, once dismounted, is better against the Soviet tanks in 41 than the under gunned, under armored German tanks.



Jango32 -> RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results (2/15/2022 9:53:10 PM)

The same result happens even when you attack tank divisions equipped with nothing more than BTs and T-26s in terms of AFVs though.



Lovenought -> RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results (2/15/2022 9:58:19 PM)

I think the aircraft claim is more interesting. Losing 400 Axis planes on turn one is uncommonly high. What exactly were you doing? Usually I would expect that to be tons of unescorted bombers in raids, but he said it was mostly operational losses. I thought it took multiple turns to wrack up huge fatigue even if you try to fly them at 100% of their possible flight hours, but maybe that's wrong.

Usually the Soviets do, in fact, take extremely vast losses on Day 1 (about 4,000 destroyed on the ground in my MP game) and then they continue taking extremely high losses until the very late war. I commonly see 10 or 20 to 1 losses in ground support missions, and unescorted bombers doing strategic bombing are usually totally wiped out if German fighters intercept them.

The Axis pilots climb to 99 XP and then become Aryan supermen playing Ace Combat against the VVS. It's the one area right now where the Axis feel overpowered.



Stamb -> RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results (2/15/2022 9:58:42 PM)

carlkay58
What you write makes sense. And I totally agree that t34 and especially kv are much better tanks than a German one in 41.
But how it is possible to explain such poor performance vs Soviet infantry, especially in defense?



DarkHorse2 -> RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results (2/15/2022 10:01:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gazzas


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

You can read any AAR in wite 2. `41 panzers are super bad against Soviet armor/mech units. And a lot of people complain about it. Right now you have to attack with motorized divisions and use panzers to flip hexes.

This is what I want to understand. Why are Motorized Div's so powerful? They certainly could not have been in real life or LSSAH, Das Reich, and Totenkopf would never have been elevated to Pz divs.

What weapons do the Motorized divisions have that are so powerful that they can take on more tanks than a Panzer Div.

quote:

This is what I want to understand. Why are Motorized Div's so powerful? They certainly could not have been in real life or LSSAH, Das Reich, and Totenkopf would never have been elevated to Pz divs.

What weapons do the Motorized divisions have that are so powerful that they can take on more tanks than a Panzer Div.


You are correct and there are some balancing issues where Panzer Divs appear overly fragile and Motorized seem OP and able to deal with the early Soviet AFVs without risk of huge panzer losses.

Hopefully they will eventually get addressed somehow.



Stamb -> RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results (2/15/2022 10:02:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lovenought
...
The Axis pilots climb to 99 XP and then become Aryan supermen playing Ace Combat against the VVS. It's the one area right now where the Axis feel overpowered.

I have only few pilots with 99 XP :P. But I agree. Fighters feel overpowered while level bombers are almost useless in GS, and tactical bombers suffer huge flak losses. 1/4 of attacking planes are lost due to a flak in a single battle. But this is another story.



DarkHorse2 -> RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results (2/15/2022 10:06:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lovenought

I think the aircraft claim is more interesting. Losing 400 Axis planes on turn one is uncommonly high. What exactly were you doing? Usually I would expect that to be tons of unescorted bombers in raids, but he said it was mostly operational losses. I thought it took multiple turns to wrack up huge fatigue even if you try to fly them at 100% of their possible flight hours, but maybe that's wrong.

Usually the Soviets do, in fact, take extremely vast losses on Day 1 (about 4,000 destroyed on the ground in my MP game) and then they continue taking extremely high losses until the very late war. I commonly see 10 or 20 to 1 losses in ground support missions, and unescorted bombers doing strategic bombing are usually totally wiped out if German fighters intercept them.

The Axis pilots climb to 99 XP and then become Aryan supermen playing Ace Combat against the VVS. It's the one area right now where the Axis feel overpowered.

quote:

I think the aircraft claim is more interesting. I have no idea how you could lose 400 Axis planes on turn one. What exactly were you doing? Usually I would expect that to be tons of unescorted bombers in raids, but he said it was mostly operational losses. I thought it took multiple turns to wrack up huge fatigue even if you try to fly them at 100% of their possible flight hours, but maybe that's wrong.

Usually the Soviets do, in fact, take extremely vast losses on Day 1 (about 4,000 destroyed on the ground in my MP game) and then they continue taking extremely high losses until the very late war. I commonly see 10 or 20 to 1 losses in ground support missions, and unescorted bombers doing strategic bombing are usually totally wiped out if German fighters intercept them.

The Axis pilots climb to 99 XP and then become Aryan supermen playing Ace Combat against the VVS. It's the one area right now where the Axis feel overpowered.


It is possible to lose 400 Axis AC 1st turn, but you have to work at it and fly a lot of unescorted missions.

Whatever Axis pilots that climb to 99 XP, I want in on that. But I haven't seen that either. OPS/Flak losses seem to keep that from really happening. If it does happen, it is the exception and not the rule. [;)]



hossjww30 -> RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results (2/15/2022 10:10:58 PM)

I could see if the defender was in a swamp at level 2 fort. But this is the first turn in light woods. Like I said I also had a mechanized infantry along with the attack and there was a stug, pioneer and panzerjager battalion also attached to the units. There were only 34 T-34's in the defenders unit. This was against the Soviet 37th tank division. I killed 34 T-34s. Don't see KV-1's in the results.

No one has addressed why the fatigue of the panzer division should be 92 after one battle in week 1.

Also, losing over 400 planes to operational losses on turn 1 is ridiculous. This is common sense for goodness sake.



Stamb -> RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results (2/15/2022 10:12:16 PM)

I am Lovenought's opponent in GC. I play as an Axis side and I confirm that I have some fighter pilots with 99 XP. They have a lot of kills and they were on a map from the start or campaign. But an average XP is probably 80 or maybe even 75. If we are talking about training pilots.



hossjww30 -> RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results (2/15/2022 10:13:00 PM)

For the planes all I did was set the AI to manage everything and ground support is on. I didn't touch anything else on the air war.



AlbertN -> RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results (2/15/2022 10:15:41 PM)

The problem is that in German doctrine the 'tank vs tank' duel was not exactly there.

Already in France the French tanks were better than Germans.
Germans had problems with Matilda's too.

So the 'but German tanks cannot exactly pierce frontal T34 armour' ... German tanks at best maneuvered, at worst called in for air support or simply sent forward the infantry.
BUT here you cannot attack with a panzer division and have the system understand that at times it's the infantry that goes forward.




hossjww30 -> RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results (2/15/2022 10:15:53 PM)

Two thirds through turn 1 (I haven't moved AG North yet):
losses:
- air combat 182
- flak 47
- operational 213



Sammy5IsAlive -> RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results (2/15/2022 10:17:58 PM)

Just a few thoughts on Axis 'tank preservation' and the use of the Panzers in general.

1) I think to an extent players are still sometimes following the WITE1 'meta' where the Panzer divisions were by far and away the strongest units. So your typical Axis offensive set piece operation would have the infantry units doing the initial attacks, the motorized divisions following up and clearing a path and then the Panzer divisions exploiting and forming the encirclements. I'd suggest that in WITE2 you are better using the Panzers to clear the path and beat up on units that have already retreated and are more vulnerable to the firepower of the Pz divs, and the more resilient Mot divisions to hold the encirclements further ahead.

2) Linked to the above I think that some players are too reluctant to take tank losses. So rather than commit them into offensive battles in situations of their own choosing, they are keeping them out of combat, which alllows them to build up the high MPs/high CPPs that can lead to them becoming a bit of a 'paper tiger' that then underperforms when they are committed deeper behind Soviet lines and have to take part in defensive battles on terms dictated by the Soviet player.

3) Linked to point #2 and to what carlkay has said above I think that some Axis players, when evaluating what constitutes 'sustainable' tank losses, are overly concentrated on the production figures and don't factor in the numbers of AFVs that will eventually come into the active pool from damaged elements. The process by which damaged elements within a unit eventually come back as ready elements is detailed in the manual but in summary it is a multi turn process and so you won't immediately benefit from it in 1941

4) I think there is a little bit of a lack of imagination in how players have been using the panzer units. For example in the AARs I've not seen a lot of stacking a Pz regiment with a Mot regiment (by doing this you spread out the targets for massed Soviet armoured counterattacks as opposed to keeping a Pz Division together and offering a single target) and I've not seen a lot of discussion of using the Panzers as an armoured reserve to combat defensive reserve activations from the Soviet side.

I don't dispute that there may be an issue with tank losses. But before immediately asking the devs to make changes I would encourage people to look at their own gameplay and evaluate whether there may be ways they could use the Panzer units differently/more effectively.



Jango32 -> RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results (2/15/2022 10:20:43 PM)

Here are two examples from battles run using turn 3 of carlkay's latest AAR campaign:

[image]https://i.imgur.com/0P17vKC.png[/image]

[image]https://i.imgur.com/c8jWhOG.png[/image]

In both cases I picked targets that had only 'outdated' Soviet AFVs like T-26s and BTs. Outright destroyed German AFVs are 43% and 39% (almost 40%) from the number the division started with in each respective example. Engaging Soviet mechanized and tank divisions with Panzer divisions will lead to losing significant numbers of German AFVs regardless of what they're up against.

CPP was at 68% for the first screenshot and 48% for the second screenshot at the time of the attack.



DarkHorse2 -> RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results (2/15/2022 10:21:48 PM)

I feel your pain.

I suspect a lot of your turn 1 losses may be recon ac?

The OPS losses tend to level out some once you have everyone flying from Level 2+ airfields. (which I do not really understand why they are so lacking in Poland at the onset of Barbarossa...)

And you will get better at AC mission planning on the 1st turn that will help drop turn 1 losses to less than 100-150 for the Axis.

Sadly, it is not intuitive at all and takes some practice and experimentation.



Stamb -> RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results (2/15/2022 10:28:17 PM)

Few comments from my side:
1. I did not play wite 1
3. I pay attention to logistics report and each turn (now it is hash winter and I don't have a lot of panzers on a map) there are around 100 tanks that are returned to a pool, while ~25 are irrecoverable.
4. It is an interesting idea to use for example 2 moto regiments and 1 panzer. One problem is that it will take +2 capacity slots (1 for breaking panzer division and 1 for breaking motorized division) from an already limited pool of assault armies and corps HQs. Also 3 regiments are weaker than a division that can be made up from this regiments, but in case of panzers + moto it might be worth to do so. At least Soviet player will have less temptation to hit it with his AFVs.

I use panzers as a reserve activation in defense!



hossjww30 -> RE: Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results (2/15/2022 10:28:48 PM)

I certainly understand some losses but losing every available tank on turn 1 after one battle? Especially on turn 1 when the Soviets had their head up their ass.



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