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gdpsnake -> (8/11/2001 6:39:00 AM)
Thanks for fixing the ATR's. A Boys ATR just sank my R-Boat!

Arralen -> (8/11/2001 7:55:00 AM)
quote: Originally posted by Paul Vebber: Arralen:the "feature/bug" that allowed small arms to penetrate small amounts of armor has gone away as of version 5.2 so its once again imposssible for snipers (or MGs) to destroy fully armored vehicles - even with "vulnrable location" hits. They can get into open top ones though. It takes a long time to go through all the changes all various hnds involved in the OOB process have made. I think I fixed this in teh new v7 OOBS - I will have to check... Still even with size 1 the 7.92 caliber rouns get some extra oomph that I has tried to take away. I have not seen a small arms penetration in any v6 or v7 testing. ??? I have installed v5.01 and patched all the way up to 6.1 .. and my OOBs say v5.2 still - something gone wrong here? (no, I don't have a nested SPWAW folder !) Had this 'vulnerable loc.' kill (which I would call a feature, not a bug, if it would happen under logical circumstances) with game version 6.1 (but OOB vers. 5.2) - tankette got hit, brew up and left no survivors !?! I totally agree with you that the danger from those AT rifles doesn't come from the total punch that they deliver (neglectible) but their ability to strike the tank where it hurts most (driver, commander, ammo). And I have seen men hit half-men-sized targets at 800m (880y.) with open sights (G3) with 50% of shots, firing single-shot rapidly from prone position ... A.

mao -> (8/11/2001 8:01:00 AM)
quote: Thanks for fixing the ATR's. A Boys ATR just sank my R-Boat! LOL ... you have to admit, that's funny ...

john g -> (8/11/2001 10:24:00 AM)
quote: Originally posted by Paul Vebber: PS to change something in teh OOBs just use the editor provided (spwaweditor.exe I think its called in teh main folder), go to the weapons button of the country of your choice and change the data. Can't guarentee bad things won't happen (usually things like "inappropriate" sounds or graphics that are hard coded to certain ranges of values) but generally they don't affect game play. Experimenting with it is easy...just remember to back up your original set into the OOB folder for safe keeping. [ August 10, 2001: Message edited by: Paul Vebber ] Paul, perhaps some of the messages asking how to change the oobs are there since the simple to use editor that showed up with the early versions is no longer in the 5.01 distribution. I am referring to the file oobeditor.exe, it is simple to use, and misuse. I could use it without docs. The editor that is there now I don't want to use, so I went back and copied oobeditor from my 4.3b backup set. thanks, John.

Arralen -> (8/11/2001 8:38:00 PM)
quote: Originally posted by john g: I am referring to the file oobeditor.exe, it is simple to use, and misuse. I could use it without docs. The editor that is there now I don't want to use, so I went back and copied oobeditor from my 4.3b backup set. thanks, John. It's "SPWAWeditor.exe" now, and still installed into the \SPWAW-folder with v6.1 ?!?! A. [ August 15, 2001: Message edited by: Arralen ]

Paul Vebber -> (8/11/2001 11:36:00 PM)
Hmm since oobeditor,exe and SPWaWeditor .exe are essentially the same thing, what is it about the new one you don't like?? (about lists them both as ver 4.2...) I am pretty sure the name was changed and that was it? On the intro of capped AP I believe it was available for Supercharge, but not sure howearily it started trickling in.

john g -> (8/12/2001 4:58:00 AM)
quote: Originally posted by Paul Vebber: Hmm since oobeditor,exe and SPWaWeditor .exe are essentially the same thing, what is it about the new one you don't like?? (about lists them both as ver 4.2...) I am pretty sure the name was changed and that was it? . Ok, I missed that file, I was looking at oob's with the oobdmp.exe (in the Chlanda folder) and wondering how people would use that to edit oob's. The install didn't put in a shortcut to the spwaweditor, and since I had one to oobedit I guess maybe I put that one in. All is forgiven. thanks, John.

Mike Rothery -> (8/13/2001 9:30:00 AM)
quote: Originally posted by Richard Harris: The .55cal Boys ATR using the AP W Mk2 cartridge (steel core, mv 3250f/s) should theoretically penetrate about 29mm of armour at pointblank range and 0deg impact angle. (This is extrapolated back using the geometric ratios of the game engine from the datum: 20mm/500m/0deg, which is the value for this particular cartridge from Hogg, Infantry Weapons of WW2.) Lead cored ball ammo was also widely available (with quite dismal penetration characteristics) and it is possible that many of the low values associated with this weapon are due to the ball ammo being used. It is interesting to note that a tungsten cored AP round was developed and issued in small numbers from 1940 (AP W Mk3). This had 'rather better' performance than the conventional (steel cored) AP W Mks 1&2. No figures given by Hogg unfortunately. Hi Richard, I can find only two figures. AJ Barker's "British & American Infantry Weapons" gives the Boys a penetration of 16mm at 500 yards at the time it won the selection competition (1937?), so that would have to the steel cored projectile. Now Hogg uses the same data in his "Infantry Weapons" as he does in his other book "Tank Killing", that is 21 mm at 330 yards. He does not state whether this is with the steel cored or tungsten cored projectile. I would not have expected the penetration drop off to be as great as 24% (21 to 16 mm) from 300 to 500 yards. Think about it, that would indicate a 24% drop in velocity as the other factors such as mass and bullet mass/shape/density/hardness would be constant. This would give the maximum range of the boys at about 700-800 yards with an algorythmic loss of velocity....which is impossible. A normal rifle bullet goes a couple of thousand yards, and the Boys having a heavier pill at a higher muzzle velocity must go further. So this makes me suspect that the 21mm figure could be the Tungsten cored projectile. My guess would be the Steel cored projectile has a penetration of 16+ (higher at point blank) and the Tungsten 21+.

Larry Holt -> (8/13/2001 10:13:00 PM)
quote: Originally posted by Possum: Hello All. I have just done some research into the OOB's and here is what I've found...... [snip] On to ATR's Boys ATR, AP Pen.= 26, Range = 15, Accuracy = 7 I've also been dismayed at the leathality of the Boys but I have not posted as I am struggling to decide it it is unnaturally lethal or if its the "other guy is too good" syndrome. I really don't have any personal feel for how much penetration it should have (others have quoted values) but I question the accruacy. A value of 7 give it a 50% first round to hit % at about 2 hexes (7\4 but I don't know how the game rounds off). I find that the Boys regularly gets first round % in the low 40%s. I can not see how this can happen with an accuracy of 7. I will run some tests to confirm my +40% experience and post them.

gdpsnake -> (8/14/2001 12:45:00 AM)
I don't have a problem with accuracy as it should be fairly easy to hit a big tank or car with a rifle type fired weapon. I don't have a problem with range as the projectile can probably travel a long distance. What I can't fathom is the 'kill' potential of the weapon. I can understand putting a hole in a vehicle but that 'hole' continually equates to a 'kill'. Is that a factor of penetration or is some other combat routine evaluating the effect of the penetration? That's the part that isn't working right even if penetration possibility is correct. After all a Boys ATR SUNK MY R-BOAT! How? And how does the rifle consistently kill Armored cars, halftracks and tanks? The penetration/hit might get lucky and immobilize a car, tank, or halftrack but killing the vehicle seems unbelievable on the scale it accomplishes. I understand the vehicle gets 'killed' when the crew all dies so maybe that's what is wrong. Should a vehicle be killed when the crew goes KIA or should it just become abandoned? (And hence available for a later recrew by another crew at reduced effectiveness/ability/movement?)

Nikademus -> (8/14/2001 2:09:00 AM)
I'm gonna side with Paul on this one. Sources i have often have called the 2pdr one of the finest if not the finest anti-tank weapons of the early portion of the war in terms of pure armor penetration. At the very least, given it's size and all i'd expect it to preform comparably with the German/US 37mm and also the 50/L42 KwK. However as Paul pointed out, there are several variables, hard to express in the SP:WAW engine. The primary ones being the early shatter problem of the 2pdr round and the German switch to face-hardened plate. One must ask, what motivated the Germans to make the switch if the 2pdr was so mediocre? I'd actually argue against reducing it's power. My most recent experience with the 2pdr hardly showed it to be the 'uber-weapon' people in this thread are ascribing it too. Heck, in a shootout with experienced Italian tankers in M13's I found their 47mm weapons doing far more damage and penetrating more often at range (500+yards) than the mightly two pounders were doing. I also found that often with penetrations the small round would'nt ace the tank but would only cause minor damage. And this was against M13's!!! Not even talking about face-hardened Pz-III and IV tanks The biggest problem of the two pounder was that it did'nt have an HE round which made it useless against the variety of other targets out there. Tanks dont primarily fight other tanks, they fight infantry and their support weapons (guns/artillery) the bane of commonwealth forces in Africa were not the Panzers.....it was the AT guns. This is part of why the 50mmL42 was a better weapon overall for the early/midwar period, its HE round was quoted as having a good chance at causing suspension and other damages even in non-penetrating situations and of course, it could be used against infantry. And with it's APCR round.....it can take out KV's frontally (not sure about that! 130mm seems high) The other problem of the 2pdr was that it was a victim of progress. It started out a good weapon but was quickly overtaken by the developments of war and was kept in production for far longer than it should have for reasons touched upon already in this thread. as for the Boys AT rifle. hav'nt seen it taking out too many tanks frontally. Think this might be due to the 'vulnerable hit' location popping up from time to time. Otherwise, a suspension hit is the best i'd hope for. I would expect them to at least have a chance against halftracks. The weapon was designed to take out light tanks, not just halftracks and such and there lies in the true disapointment of the weapon. virtually useless against any decent AFV but marginal against halftracks and other similar types. With the new infantry rules though it takes a brave man to fire off his weapon and only a half track. I've often made the AI pay for such tactics

Nikademus -> (8/14/2001 2:30:00 AM)
quote: Originally posted by Paul Vebber: Arralen:the "feature/bug" that allowed small arms to penetrate small amounts of armor has gone away as of version 5.2 so its once again imposssible for snipers (or MGs) to destroy fully armored vehicles - even with "vulnrable location" hits. [ August 10, 2001: Message edited by: Paul Vebber ] Actually, it is still happening Paul. Have had it happen to me several times in the current campaign. Of them i do specifically recall the first occasion (all with version 6.1), a Finnish sniper destroyed a T-26 frontally with a vulnerable hit location shot courtasy of his rifle. I remember it clearly because i was so shocked to see it happen the first time. I mean, i know the T-26 was a tin can but really......

Nikademus -> (8/14/2001 8:54:00 AM)
quote: Originally posted by Grumble: Well the 250/251's armor was sloped at 15-20 degrees frontally and about 30 degrees and the sides-which effectively doubles its protection. The Canadians used the Ram because it and the surplus M7s had better cross-country performance than the M2/3 halftracks. In the lowlands of Belgium and Holland they found that the underpowered US halftracks could not keep up with the armor. The only other alternative was the bren-gun carrier and that was too small to carry a full squad. The additional protection was part of it, but the MAIN reason was tactical mobility equivalent to the tanks. I just checked out the link provided at the beginning of this thread. The Finnish figures were garnered from tests they conducted and the info states that the target armor was at 70 degrees (which i'm assuming is actually 30 degrees if one assumes 0 degrees is completely verticle, i think the Finnish quote assumes the opposite.....that completely verticle (i.e. unsloped) is 90 degrees) So it would appear that the Boys weapon and all ATG's in general had at least the power to penetrate halftrack armor under combat conditions. Getting a kill with one shot though is another thing. I've seen halftracks take multiple ATG rounds that penetrated on numerous occaisions

john g -> (8/14/2001 9:36:00 AM)
quote: Originally posted by Nikademus: So it would appear that the Boys weapon and all ATG's in general had at least the power to penetrate halftrack armor under combat conditions. Getting a kill with one shot though is another thing. I've seen halftracks take multiple ATG rounds that penetrated on numerous occaisions Remember an at rifle has the ability to pick its shot, varying the aim to pick the very best part of the target, while an at gun will generally just shoot for dead center of the vehicle, so indeed an at gunner might shoot for the driver's shutters, or a tire, or any other vulnerable location. I remember reading about the winter war, where the Finnish at rifle crew were instructed as to the few vulnerable locations they were to aim for when firing at the Soviet tanks they were facing. They had a chance for penetration if they hit those exact spots, none if they hit anywhere else. thanks, John.

Richard Harris -> (8/14/2001 1:28:00 PM)
I suspect the main cause of the problems people are having with ATR's of any type, is (as mentioned earlier in this thread) that the warhead size of these weapons (or most of them) is 2. The penetration values seem to be fine for most weapons. The oddball of the bunch is the PzB39 which gets a game pen of 38 compared to Hogg's (yep, him again!) datum of 25mm/300m/30deg the interesting point here is, the PzB39 has a warhead of 1. So the high game penetration value may be on purpose in this case... Some dodgy data (courtesy of Infantry weapons of WW2) for people to laugh at: 7.92mm PzB38/39 25mm/300m/30deg (AP + tear gas) 7.92mm wz35 Marosczek 20mm/300m/0deg .55cal Boys Mk.I 20mm/500m/0deg (Tungsten cored stuff, based on Mike Rothery's data - see earlier) 14.5mm PTRS/PTRD 25mm/500m/0deg (AP-I ammo) 20mm Solothurn (Fucile-cc etc...) 35mm/300m/0deg 20mm Type 97 12mm/200m/0deg(!?) Does anyone know if the French ever developed an ATR around their 13.2mm Hotchkiss cartridge? If not, just what are the French meant to be using early on in the war? As for the R-Boat. Well obviously the bullet penetrated the bridge plating, smashed the autographed portrait of the Fuehrer on the wall, ricocheted off the Kapitan's monocle, rolled down the stairs tripping the chief engineer who dropped his scalding ersatz koffee on the nearby rating who dropped his spanner on the contact horn of a stowed sea mine... Boom... Happens all the time.

Paul Vebber -> (8/14/2001 7:24:00 PM)
Excellent Richard - you are getting into the spirit! Unfortunately the game engine thinks all things are tanks, so if you "penetrate" youhave a chance for a "kill" - I have tried to increas the survivability in large things some more, but it will take Combat Leader to really fix the need for "damage levels" and not simply a catastrophic kill or system damage.

panda124c -> (8/14/2001 7:33:00 PM)
quote: Originally posted by Richard Harris: As for the R-Boat. Well obviously the bullet penetrated the bridge plating, smashed the autographed portrait of the Fuehrer on the wall, ricocheted off the Kapitan's monocle, rolled down the stairs tripping the chief engineer who dropped his scalding ersatz koffee on the nearby rating who dropped his spanner on the contact horn of a stowed sea mine... Boom... Happens all the time. I really hate it when this happens. It's those darn monocles. Hey Paul, there was some suggestions about giving the Germans Tank Killer teams, with the German OOB being so full, I had a thought (dangerous) if you were to take the German ATR Uit and move the ATR to slot 2 or 3 and give the unit AT mines as it's first weapon this should give you the Tank Killer Teams and the ATR in one unit. This way is you want to use the ATR it could be done manually (I usually set the ATR to range of 1 so I can control what it fires at) giving a ranged AT capability and a healthy close up AT ability. What do you think? [ August 14, 2001: Message edited by: pbear ]

Larry Holt -> (8/14/2001 10:36:00 PM)
quote: Originally posted by pbear: I really hate it when this happens. It's those darn monocles. Hey Paul, there was some suggestions about giving the Germans Tank Killer teams, with the German OOB being so full, I had a thought (dangerous) if you were to take the German ATR Uit and move the ATR to slot 2 or 3 and give the unit AT mines as it's first weapon this should give you the Tank Killer Teams and the ATR in one unit. This way is you want to use the ATR it could be done manually (I usually set the ATR to range of 1 so I can control what it fires at) giving a ranged AT capability and a healthy close up AT ability. What do you think? [ August 14, 2001: Message edited by: pbear ] I don't know about what Paul thinks but this is what I did, except that I put AT mines in the last slot. They work fine in close assaults there.

Paul Vebber -> (8/15/2001 1:43:00 AM)
This is in the new OOB - German 4 man recon teams have AT mines

Nikademus -> (8/15/2001 2:02:00 AM)
quote: Originally posted by Richard Harris: As for the R-Boat. Well obviously the bullet penetrated the bridge plating, smashed the autographed portrait of the Fuehrer on the wall, ricocheted off the Kapitan's monocle, rolled down the stairs tripping the chief engineer who dropped his scalding ersatz koffee on the nearby rating who dropped his spanner on the contact horn of a stowed sea mine... Boom... Happens all the time. I'm writing this down for a future chapter in my fiction story. Its SO plausible after all!!!!

Larry Holt -> (8/15/2001 3:08:00 AM)
quote: Originally posted by Paul Vebber: This is in the new OOB - German 4 man recon teams have AT mines They do in the 6.1 OOB. I suppose that this unit can be used for both recon as well as AT team duty but it wasn't clear to me upfront.

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