Question about IS 2 and 122 mm gun (Full Version)

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Jasper -> Question about IS 2 and 122 mm gun (8/21/2001 11:39:00 PM)

IS 2 carried a 122 mm gun. When fully loaded, it has a total of 18 HE and 10 AP.
I was firing on a panther G using my last round of AP and clank that all I get. But when I managed to reduce my supression to get a second shot it destroyed it. Now according to the data, at a range of about 15 hexes or 750 yards, my HE penetration is only 41, how could I kill it by hitting on the frontal hull. Now I was suprised by it perform, as such, I charge the rest of my IS 2 (3 left), They are also out of AP rounds on earlier enagement, I got alot of clank, clank on the rest of the panther G. Now without AP and using my HE, I got tons of boom boom boom and up to a lucky shot at 1200 yards or 24 hexes. My question:
(1)Why the AP round perform lesser than the HE?
(2)Does the HE kill armour by the size of it warhead or what?
(3)The 41 penetration shown in the IS2 data is referring to what...?



lnp4668 -> (8/21/2001 11:58:00 PM)

The Panther have slope armor, so an AP round could sometime ricochet off. However, according to the book Soviet Armor 1919-1945 by Schiffer publishing, late war shortage of manganese caused GE steel to be exremely brittle, thus high explosive would cause crack and shattering, especially at the weld seam. I don't think the game portray manganese shortage, but it do allows for damage by HE against hard target. The more technical part of your question would have to be answer by someone else



Jasper -> (8/22/2001 12:02:00 AM)

The problem is that the AP are not the killer on panther tank, it turn out to be the HE....does the game has a different way to calculate killing for HE against armor.



john g -> (8/22/2001 5:35:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Casper:
The problem is that the AP are not the killer on panther tank, it turn out to be the HE....does the game has a different way to calculate killing for HE against armor.
Were you firing from above? If that is true you had a small chance of getting a top hit, and the he penetration of the 122 should have be enough to crack that panther's top. On the other hand if you are below and very close you have a chance at a bottom hit and it will punch thru there as well. If the 122 penetrates it will kill. There are two possibilities, anyone else have another?
thanks, John.



lnp4668 -> (8/22/2001 6:39:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Casper:
The problem is that the AP are not the killer on panther tank, it turn out to be the HE....does the game has a different way to calculate killing for HE against armor.
This is from page 37 of the manual.
"HE is now tested against the basic armor thickness of hard targets, HEAT ammo against the "geometric thickness," and AP and HVAP are tested against a T/D-dependant "ballistic thickness" to determine the chance of penetration." Now what the heck that means, don't ask me However this is my guess.
1. HE's explosive power is compare directly to the armor thickness, disregard the slope/angle of shot
2. HEAT's round takes into account the angle of penetration to determine the real thickness
3. AP (if I know what T/D is I could put in an educated guess) Also, I misquoted the source on the manganese shortage that caused steel brittleness in late war German tank [ August 22, 2001: Message edited by: lnp4668 ]



Tommy -> (8/22/2001 7:04:00 PM)

Casper, This is slightly off-topic; but how did you manage to hit the Panther at all with the JS II? In the last scenario I played, the JS II had a perpetual hit % of 2 or 4 %. From out past 10 hexes, they didn't hit a single tank. The few who survived the closure (the Panthers had no problem cracking open the JS II, even the MK IV took out a few) finally starting landing hits at 10 hexes. Tommy



Jasper -> (8/22/2001 11:28:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Tommy:
Casper, This is slightly off-topic; but how did you manage to hit the Panther at all with the JS II? In the last scenario I played, the JS II had a perpetual hit % of 2 or 4 %. From out past 10 hexes, they didn't hit a single tank. The few who survived the closure (the Panthers had no problem cracking open the JS II, even the MK IV took out a few) finally starting landing hits at 10 hexes. Tommy
I am playing a email game with my friend, if u need the savegame, i could email u my password and the savegame itself. I was staying behind that stupid hill because of my friend panther and his artillery. I got so frustrated as he is in the open and I used my artillery (rockets) on it and finally I got so frustrated, I charged out for a fight. Just say it and I will email u the game



Larry Holt -> (8/22/2001 11:33:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by lnp4668:
[snip] Now what the heck that means, don't ask me However this is my guess.
1. HE's explosive power is compare directly to the armor thickness, disregard the slope/angle of shot
2. HEAT's round takes into account the angle of penetration to determine the real thickness
3. AP (if I know what T/D is I could put in an educated guess) Also, I misquoted the source on the manganese shortage that caused steel brittleness in late war German tank [ August 22, 2001: Message edited by: lnp4668 ]
Very good. T/D is the ratio of armor thickness to the diameter of the AP round.



Paul Vebber -> (8/22/2001 11:38:00 PM)

You are correct. HE goes against the base thickness of the armor, slope is not a factor. HEAT uses the geometric thickness of the armor (no T/D slope effect AP and APCR use a T/D corrected slope correction (low T/D means the slope has less effect and ricochets are less common, high T/D means the slope has a great effect and ricochets will be more frequent). IF you shoot on the move with most SOviet equipment you are wastig ammo - shoot first, then move. [ August 22, 2001: Message edited by: Paul Vebber ]



panda124c -> (8/23/2001 12:15:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Tommy:
Casper, This is slightly off-topic; but how did you manage to hit the Panther at all with the JS II? In the last scenario I played, the JS II had a perpetual hit % of 2 or 4 %. From out past 10 hexes, they didn't hit a single tank. The few who survived the closure (the Panthers had no problem cracking open the JS II, even the MK IV took out a few) finally starting landing hits at 10 hexes. Tommy

Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes the bug. Usually the Russians are the bug, It's good to hear that it is possible.



Jasper -> (8/23/2001 8:45:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Tommy:
Casper, This is slightly off-topic; but how did you manage to hit the Panther at all with the JS II? In the last scenario I played, the JS II had a perpetual hit % of 2 or 4 %. From out past 10 hexes, they didn't hit a single tank. The few who survived the closure (the Panthers had no problem cracking open the JS II, even the MK IV took out a few) finally starting landing hits at 10 hexes. Tommy
Tommy, I have just obtained the copy of OOB 7.05B. I think you would like it. The accuracy has imporved. Now you get about 10 to 11 %.
A....forgot to mention, so does the enemy so...back to square one...they can hit you better now. I plaed a tiger on the hill top and didnt move it at all and the accuracy is much better. Maybe the Beta has clear off that part of the bug. I trial this with the computer. I have not tried email game yet but I managed to convinced my friend to switch to the beta version and try afew games with it. Though I must admit defeat to all games I am having with him presently(6 games)
Do you like a copy? We can a game or two to further our discuss? I am open to any game, just mail a game to me and we will try. Which side u prefer German or Russian.



Paul Vebber -> (8/23/2001 8:52:00 PM)

IF you think the default hitting chances are too skewed, you can raise teh Russian hitting chances in the preferences screen. I believe them to be pretty accurate in ver 7



Jasper -> (8/23/2001 11:55:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber:
IF you think the default hitting chances are too skewed, you can raise teh Russian hitting chances in the preferences screen. I believe them to be pretty accurate in ver 7
Paul, In the version 6, using email gmae, it is not only the Russian are getting lousy hitting % but the German too. I have just asked my friend about it. He said that he placed a Tiger on top of a hill for two turn without moving, when he spotted my unit, his hit percent is as bad between 15 to 20 hexes away. His hitting percentage was also 2 to 4 %. For me is about 2% for initial shot. However, the ver 7b5 was better now, I have an initial of 10 to 14 % after moving to fire position but....now he has about 24 to 30 %.



Paul Vebber -> (8/24/2001 1:24:00 AM)

Make sure you delete teh steel.prf file whenever you add a new mech.exe or the prefs can get weirded up...its in the SAVE folder. Check the suppresssion of the firing unit - you want 0 suppression to have teh best shooting chances. the first 1 point of suppression (ie knowing that someone is shooting back) is a big penalty to hitting. Also ensure you are "in cover" that adds to your coolness under fire. Suppression above 1 reduces hit % by 50% of the suppression (so 30 suppression reduces hit chance form 60 to 45 - 15 % points) Firing at a fast moving target can also make it tough, but good fire control counters that. Firing after movement is a big no-no unless you have a targeting stat of 3 or 4. If there is a Tiger on a hill shooting at you, fire everything including the kitchen sink at it and it will button (reducing its spotting chances and your odds of evading) FOr keeping high hit chances, stay back aways, a Tiger or Panther can get 30 or 40 % hit chances at 30 hexes if suppression is zero and in cover. Getting close can actually HURT by exposing you to more fire and suppression penalties than you gain for closing the range.



Tommy -> (8/24/2001 2:24:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber:
IF you think the default hitting chances are too skewed, you can raise teh Russian hitting chances in the preferences screen. I believe them to be pretty accurate in ver 7
Paul, I missed something here. How do I read my current OOB version and where can I get ver 7? Thanks Tommy



Tommy -> (8/24/2001 2:27:00 AM)

Casper Thanks for the offer of a game, but I just don't have enough time. You'd die of old age by turn 2! BTW, where did you get version 7 of the OOB? Tommy



Larry Holt -> (8/24/2001 3:02:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Tommy:

Paul, I missed something here. How do I read my current OOB version and where can I get ver 7?
Thanks
Tommy
If you have to ask, you don't have ver 7. Its in testing. You might ask Matrix to be a tester but time is real tight for this and I don't know if they have time to add more testers. Then again thy might.



Jasper -> (8/24/2001 6:35:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Tommy:
Casper Thanks for the offer of a game, but I just don't have enough time. You'd die of old age by turn 2! BTW, where did you get version 7 of the OOB? Tommy
support Matrix buy the new mega campaign, it comes with it.



Tommy -> (8/24/2001 6:59:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Casper:
support Matrix buy the new mega campaign, it comes with it.
Larry & Casper, This is getting confusing. I have the MCNA, but I read on this forum that it is ver 5 on the OOB. Does anyone know how to read my current OOB version? I think we'll all want to know this from now on as OOB's get out of synch with the mech.exe revision numbers. Tommy



john g -> (8/24/2001 7:18:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Tommy:
Does anyone know how to read my current OOB version? I think we'll all want to know this from now on as OOB's get out of synch with the mech.exe revision numbers. Tommy
Use the spwaweditor and look at any nationality, change to formations, the first formation, which is your A0 unit, will list the oob version.
thanks, John.



lnp4668 -> (8/24/2001 7:28:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Tommy:
Larry & Casper, This is getting confusing. I have the MCNA, but I read on this forum that it is ver 5 on the OOB.
Tommy
MCNA comes with version 5.1 (or 5.3 if you gets the disks late) Lost Victories will come with 7.0



Christian Blex -> (8/24/2001 8:46:00 PM)

There is a v7.06b (=Beta)mech.exe patch out there (against those nasty yugos). I also got the OOB's for ver7. However they are also still Beta and I found some strange settings. So I would wait until the final OOB's for ver.7 come out.



Tommy -> (8/24/2001 8:52:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by john g:
Use the spwaweditor and look at any nationality, change to formations, the first formation, which is your A0 unit, will list the oob version.
thanks, John.
Thanks John. I wondered where that was marked. I have ver 5.2
[img]http://home.adelphia.net/~talmeida/spwaw/spwaw_ver.jpg[/img] Tommy



Paul Vebber -> (8/24/2001 11:33:00 PM)

PLease list any OOB problems, errors, whatever, up on the TOE/OOB forum. THANKS!



Scharfschütze -> (8/28/2001 4:05:00 AM)

Personally, I prefer the ISU-122, which has better accuracy and penetration and also carries more ammunition. Problem is: you just cannot fight Tigers or Panthers or even JPz/Pz-IV´s head on. They have a higher rate of fire and will hit you when you don´t. The soviet tanks, mainly the IS variants and especially the T-34/85, should be cheaper to purchase. Even when playing sneaky, its about 3 for 1 Tiger, and that is with the germans moving your way. Typical situation: You sit concealed, the Tigers rush past, you move to the edge of the woods (wait a turn to shoot more accurately and pray not to get spotted), then start firing, miss, get a bounce, they return fire and pop your tanks with their first shots, ruining turns of preparation. I´ve resorted to fighting them with infantry completely, only bringing my tank reseves in when they are practically defeated. Doesn´t work with an enemy who is not coming to your infantry positions, though...



panda124c -> (8/28/2001 6:33:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Scharfschütze:
Personally, I prefer the ISU-122, which has better accuracy and penetration and also carries more ammunition. Problem is: you just cannot fight Tigers or Panthers or even JPz/Pz-IV´s head on. They have a higher rate of fire and will hit you when you don´t. The soviet tanks, mainly the IS variants and especially the T-34/85, should be cheaper to purchase. Even when playing sneaky, its about 3 for 1 Tiger, and that is with the germans moving your way. Typical situation: You sit concealed, the Tigers rush past, you move to the edge of the woods (wait a turn to shoot more accurately and pray not to get spotted), then start firing, miss, get a bounce, they return fire and pop your tanks with their first shots, ruining turns of preparation. I´ve resorted to fighting them with infantry completely, only bringing my tank reseves in when they are practically defeated. Doesn´t work with an enemy who is not coming to your infantry positions, though...

Now you know why the Russians tended to use LOTS of tanks. It's the old trick of run your enemy out of amunition then he is easy to destroy.



Jasper -> (8/29/2001 11:40:00 PM)

Try OT-34 and carry a squad of infantry. They are much better at handling those nasty Tiger or even King Tiger at close range. Of course, unload ur infantry before going in for the heat. The infantry will revenge for ur lose if they dont made it. As for long range, dont duel with the German tanks....they are superb at that range. I always try to fight German in forest area and blast any open area with rocket if possible or suitation permits. Anybody duel German in open area is mad....I have 12 tanks knock out by a Tiger in open area....



Scharfschütze -> (8/31/2001 2:56:00 AM)

OT-34... nasty thought! I tried a platoon of KV-8 a few games ago, but they were wiped out in their ill-chosen lurking position on my side of a hill. Never thought of using flame tanks again after that! Btw, why not send the infantry in first to draw the opportunity fire, then finish with the flamegun? Side note: In my current pbem I hust finished three of those accursed Tigers in my last turn, one with concentrated fire of four IS-2m, the next one took a lucky hit from 9 hexes away by a 85mm AA (accurate and deadly, the russian Acht-Acht (88)), the third was wasted by an attacking Sthurmovik. Now there only four Königstiger, a platoon of Panthers, whats left of the two Tiger platoons (got another one before), and the remnants of a Jpz-48 company to go.
Can´t tell you of what I got left here though, the enemy might be reading...



Jasper -> (9/2/2001 2:15:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Scharfschütze:
OT-34... nasty thought! I tried a platoon of KV-8 a few games ago, but they were wiped out in their ill-chosen lurking position on my side of a hill. Never thought of using flame tanks again after that! Btw, why not send the infantry in first to draw the opportunity fire, then finish with the flamegun? Side note: In my current pbem I hust finished three of those accursed Tigers in my last turn, one with concentrated fire of four IS-2m, the next one took a lucky hit from 9 hexes away by a 85mm AA (accurate and deadly, the russian Acht-Acht (88)), the third was wasted by an attacking Sthurmovik. Now there only four Königstiger, a platoon of Panthers, whats left of the two Tiger platoons (got another one before), and the remnants of a Jpz-48 company to go.
Can´t tell you of what I got left here though, the enemy might be reading...

The problem with KV8, is that it does not carry a 76 mm gun or later with 85mm and further to that it speed is too slow and it armour does not give sufficient protection against the 88 or 75L70 gun. The 45 mm gun carried by the KV 8 is too weak to destroy a Tiger and it HE is too small to really hurt those infantry in the forest. You need bigger gun like the 76. A platoon of OT-34 can charge up to two hexes in a forest against a enemy tank but somehow, KV8 does not meet that requirement which is speed. To reduce enemy accurately, one of the factor was speed. I look at KV as big fat buffalo only good in the early stage of the war but one the PZ IV came with a long gun, it is quite useless tank after all. No wonder the Russian drop it out after KV 85. In fact, KV 85 was not what the Russian wanted but because the IS wasnt ready so they used it.



john g -> (9/2/2001 9:56:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Scharfschütze:

Btw, why not send the infantry in first to draw the opportunity fire, then finish with the flamegun?
You have to remember this isn't SP1-3. You can't draw all of a units op fire and then run right up next to it. With special opfire, a unit will fire until it runs out of ammo, its weapon breaks, it gets too suppressed to fire, or it runs out of targets. Keep throwing infantry in front of it and it will keep firing, then it will fire as tanks close to it, or return fire roughly every other shot fired at it. If you want to approach a tank, dump arty on it until it is suppressed.
thanks, John.



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