SPWAW is getting worse all the time (not really) (Full Version)

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Fuerte -> SPWAW is getting worse all the time (not really) (9/4/2001 2:20:00 AM)

First there is that new targetting bug. Then we can't see the end of game map any more, because it requires passwords for BOTH players. Not to mention all other old bugs:
1) the recon unit movement display when C&C is on
2) VCR jumps and repaints the screen even if both the firing and target units are already on screen
etc. I'm sure that v7 fixes nothing of these. I think that it would be much better if the OLD bugs were fixed first before any NEW features are added. Also I think that Matrix Games should not develop any new features to SPWAW, but rather make a new (bug-free) game (Combat Leader?) without any current problems of SPWAW. It is sad to see SPWAW in such state as it is now. This was the first time I tried SPWAW 6.1, and it has all the problems from 5.x. It was very frustrating to view the end game results, because we now can't see the map or enemy units any more. I understand that Matrix probably has some cash flow problems, and that they need to make products like mega campaign, mugs etc. just to stay in business. But I think that most important is to make QUALITY products. If Combat Leader has even half of the bugs in SPWAW, then it will be a failure. I'm worried. Enough, let the flames begin... (The subject was exaggeration, sorry for that) [ September 08, 2001: Message edited by: Fuerte ]



MacCready -> (9/4/2001 2:28:00 AM)

Don't worry about combat leader,it is being created from scratch.It is not a reworked 4-5 year old game code. You won't be able to compare them really other than they will a similar gaming experience. I agree they have done to much with SPWAW,but thats only because the fanatical historical spwaw community is constantly wanting more more more. I mean youve got people around here worried about what kind of ammo a certain tank was or wasnt carriying back in the early forties.



Fabs -> (9/4/2001 2:45:00 AM)

Are these bugs affecting PBEM or online games only? I play solitaire, have version 6.1 and have never come across any of them. I'm a little sick of the current trend to knock Matrixgames and SPWAW. Have we all forgotten that these marvellous chaps did all this work for us out of love of the game and absolutely free? You are getting frustrated, old chum, but have you thought what the situation would have been for the past couple of years if these guys hadn't come along? Do you like SPWW2? And what about the old SP1, 2 and 3 series? We are all waiting for Combat Leader, but in the mean time some of us are quite happy enjoying the old game, bugs and all. Give these guys a break, they deserve it. [ September 03, 2001: Message edited by: Fabs ]



Fabio Prado -> (9/4/2001 3:20:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Fabs:
Are these bugs affecting PBEM or online games only? I play solitaire, have version 6.1 and have never come across any of them. I'm a little sick of the current trend to knock Matrixgames and SPWAW. Have we all forgotten that these marvellous chaps did all this work for us out of love of the game and absolutely free? You are getting frustrated, old chum, but have you thought what the situation would have been for the past couple of years if these guys hadn't come along? Do you like SPWW2? And what about the old SP1, 2 and 3 series? We are all waiting for Combat Leader, but in the mean time some of us are quite happy enjoying the old game, bugs and all. Give these guys a break, they deserve it. [ September 03, 2001: Message edited by: Fabs ]
I am 110% with you, Fabs!
Everybody should be happy with the FREE SPWAW and thanks MATRIX for what they have right now.
And you don't even imagine the kind of dedication that is behind what you are getting for FREE. I know, because I do what I can to help the guys, instead of whining my guts out...
Don't worry about Combat Leader - it will blow your mind anyway...Just save the buck! Fab



chief -> (9/4/2001 3:38:00 AM)

Fabs & Fabio I agree with your comments 100%, plus I play 6.1 Solitaire and have not run into any problems so far and I've played 11/12 scenarios in the Long Campaign... (I not saying how I've done though)



Paul Vebber -> (9/4/2001 3:59:00 AM)

The "new" targeting bug has been there all along, but just happens to be affecting more and more people as technology moves ahead and leaves the basic game design further in the dust... In the few cases it happens, as often as not its a benefit to have the unit shot at the unit it previously fired at rather than the target that triggered the OpFire. When it "hang fires" and shoots at nothing, maybe the unit happened to THINK there was a unit where there wasn't. Your troops don't robotically do your exact bidding? Borg telepathic hive mind occasionally slips a cog? Gee, now there is maybe some realism in there... Yea it may have crept in accidentally, but some of this stuff where things don't happen exactly as expected adds a little spice. As to teh cause' from what we can gather the memory requirements of the gaem have gone up and at least 64MB is needed, 128 is reccommended. We thing these sorts of errors are realted to Windows virtual memeory disk rights that throw teh 10 year old Watcom compiled code a curve ball. Consider it "Fog of War" and add more memory (CompUSA had 128MB FREE with rebate...) The "recon" bug simply forces you to click twice on the unit, hardly worth the effort of hors of programming time to fix... And the screen "jumping around" is the way all SP games are. I happen to like it centering on the unit orf interest, you biug is my feature. If having to click an extra time or the design choice in display are "game kilers" now, then we have indeed gotten about as far as we can go We are rapidly getting to a working pre-alpha of COmbat Leader and that means that we will be relying more and more on those of you who have been steppiing up to the plate fantastically to offer support to your fellow gamers. As we move to Combat Leader toward Alpha and Beta testing over the next couple months, a new "Young Guard" of SP:WaW caretakers and support givers will have to step up, just as some of us did back in the early days of Post SSI SP support. You have a sympathetic ear here and we will continue to help with the "hard stuff" but "sending saves" to be methodically checked for a bug or why a procedure isn't working will need to be done by some of the rising experts out there, as the time is coiming where we need to move on and give Combat Leader the focus of our efforts on the tactical gaming side.



Charles2222 -> (9/4/2001 4:07:00 AM)

I have to say that for the angle that Fuerte is taking, I understand his frustration, although this particular game doesn't strike my gaming experience, with it, as it seems to do with Fuerte. I understand, because there is the game BTR, which is being fixed under similar circumstances. About 2 versions deep into bug fixes, one individual has been fixing it, and those fixes brought on a devastating bug from my perspective. The bug makes a total joke out of playing the Axis side, and it's EXTREMELY frustrating for people to diddely-daddley around with stupid nuances such as what squadron was where in the war, and shouldn't the Mustang should have one more iota of speed or what not, and a very key embarrasing bug continues to shine on. That game had a lot of potential as far as I'm concerned, but ever since the second fix, the bug's so devastating that I've only played it in order to see if the bug has been fixed. That has been over a year with that game dormant. There's nothing more frustrating, gamewise, for a game whose concept you absolutely love (I greatly enjoyed playing it's predecessor USAAF), to be squealched by a bug that the fixer won't fix, probably because most everyone wants to play the winning side, the Allies, and/or that there's so many voices clamoring for puny details to be corrected that a major flaw goes on. Yeah, I know what Fuerte means, because if he's thinking like I am about this game, as I am about BTR, the game is unplayable as I want to play it. Only difference is that I paid for BTR.



Paul Vebber -> (9/4/2001 4:17:00 AM)

Which of these bugs is "devastating" leaving the game "unplayable!?!



ruxius -> (9/4/2001 4:29:00 AM)

a) MEGACAMPAIGNS opened to a human opponent
b) COOPERATIVE CAMPAIGN playing-mode extension
c) multiple branches in designing the flow of a campaign and the possibility to deal with core units in the editor Some examples to show that sometimes what you think it's a very valid point in your own opinion may or may not be approved and realized by MAtrix
And let me say I think some of these points are very simple to be realized compared to their return but how can I be sure of this , here ? in my house ? far from Matrix ? (..) It doesn't matter how much I consider useful and
necessary my features to the game..the point is that WE HAVE A CHANCE TO BE LISTENED here ( as never elsewhere ) , not the CERTAINITY !
And I think this applies to new features as well as bugs' problems...
And obviously this is really the maximum we can expect not to have a game with 4200 different degrees of behaving...(maybe the number of current forum members has to be updated... ) That's to say that Fuerte has his own right to show its point again and again but he is wrong when he thinks that issuing a problem must mean that it has to be necessary fixed by Matrix . I am trying to explain that very often people like Fuerte forgets a grateful manner to ask for something to MAtrix..and consider that I am not saying Fuerte should say nothing because Matrix has done already too much for us !! Many said this and now I repeat it : AN OUTSTANDING WORK HAS BEEN DONE TILL NOW TO ENHANCE THIS GAME , WHY WE HAVE ALWAYS TO SPEAK ABOUT WHAT STILL LACKS ?
what has been done deserves always enthusiasm DESPITE the bugs that still stands into the game !
Why you have to say that SPWAW is becoming always worse ? Why you have to say that it's very frustrating not to see the end results ?
To me it's sad to see people who are ready to criticize without balancing with the necessary enthusiasm ! Do you really throw away everything for a couple of bugs ? Confidentially : I am a member of a tournament...
and I too experienced the problem of the save score not working in a secure PBEM game...
This could be a very busting bug for a player who fought a legendary battle and then couldn't show its statistics to the opponent..but if you go back and read about my first approach to the problem in the forum I had never been so pessimistic !
Why do you choose to be so negative ?
I am sure you love SPWAW ...find a way to say your point with fairness...because it's not really true that we can be unsatisfied by the actual SPWAW... what's more : remember they never said that bugs in SPWAW will be a question that will suffer negligence ! At least you have a good point that is : we would like to have SPWAW finally bug free game...show your point without negativism...that's my poor point of view if you like it ! [ September 03, 2001: Message edited by: ruxius ]



Alby -> (9/4/2001 5:38:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber:
Which of these bugs is "devastating" leaving the game "unplayable!?!

NONE are making the game unplayable. Best game out there, bar none.
if only the air entry/exit worked for player2 in online games, all would be right in the world
LOL



Supervisor -> (9/4/2001 6:15:00 AM)

There is always going to be critics that don't like something or think that development is heading in the wrong way. You can't please everyone all the time so don't try. I've played the SP series since the beginning, and think what Matrix has done and continues to do is unsurpassed by any other gaming company in any gaming envirorment. Just the way SPWAW has progressed in a little over a year speaks for itself. Matrix what ever your doing keep doing it, your already have a large following that keeps growing and will continue to do so, with SPWAW improvements with MegaCampaigns and for the highly anticipated releases of Combat Leader and Close Assault.



Charles2222 -> (9/4/2001 6:20:00 AM)

My comments when using the words 'devastating' and 'unplayable' were in reference to BTR not SPWAW. This shadows to some extent what I take him to be saying, as it does look, generally, as though he has had it pretty much. The BTR thing is only a heightened example of what he was saying, subjectively, as indeed there are BTR players who play with the amateurish bug I find so easily when playing the Axis, and work around it (particularly if they're playing the Allies, which I don't). I can't speak for other non-playing or playing BTR people, but this bug is about on the par of seeing something serious and with so much potential, and then putting Ewoks in it, or Jar-Jar Binks (at least in Star Wars I could largely ignore those sort of things). And then to think it's been ignored for over a year while people are nit-picking about further 'adding' to the game. I just wanted to say, be he right or not, that there are some of us who've gone through what Fuerte's talking about, and I think it sure sounds as though he's just as frustrated with SPWAW as I am with BTR. I'm under the impression that Fuerte is playing by email, or some other way to which I'm not familiar.



parusski -> (9/4/2001 7:33:00 AM)

This game is the best out there for two reasons. 1. It's quality and support from developers. 2. It's freaking free. Dasvadanya



Paul Vebber -> (9/4/2001 7:35:00 AM)

btw putting passwords in the end game screen prevents a MAJOR cheat - ie surrendering the game to get to the end game screen and seeeing your opponants disposition, then crashing the game (or alt tabbing out and killing it) and then restarting with perfect intell of where the enemy is. Asking for both passwords was the most readily available fix. So that was not done just to ruin the lives of pbem players, but to help...



Zakhal -> (9/4/2001 7:40:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Fabs:
Are these bugs affecting PBEM or online games only? I play solitaire, have version 6.1 and have never come across any of them. I'm a little sick of the current trend to knock Matrixgames and SPWAW. Have we all forgotten that these marvellous chaps did all this work for us out of love of the game and absolutely free? You are getting frustrated, old chum, but have you thought what the situation would have been for the past couple of years if these guys hadn't come along? Do you like SPWW2? And what about the old SP1, 2 and 3 series? We are all waiting for Combat Leader, but in the mean time some of us are quite happy enjoying the old game, bugs and all. Give these guys a break, they deserve it. [ September 03, 2001: Message edited by: Fabs ]
Ive seen som bugs, but only with online. Heres few: -Shooting 7 times per round with a tiger tank(!)
-Cant reverse, only go forward (no cc)
-Damaged tanks exploding by-them-selves
-Shooting and still staying invisible even the opponent gets to shoot back. (not sure abt this)



john g -> (9/4/2001 8:43:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Zakhal:
Ive seen som bugs, but only with online. Heres few: -Shooting 7 times per round with a tiger tank(!)
-Cant reverse, only go forward (no cc)
-Damaged tanks exploding by-them-selves
-Shooting and still staying invisible even the opponent gets to shoot back. (not sure abt this)
Shooting 7 times? Was that op fire? Or the mg? Anyone who knows spec op fire, knows that units will fire many many times during an opponents turn if given enough triggers like being shot at, having units move adjacent, or having units move in los. If it was during the opponents turn, are you aware that a Tiger with an elite crew can get 4 shots with its main gun and/or 7 shots with its mgs, per turn? As a unit gains experiance in a campaign setting it gets additional shots per turn, with exp up around 120 the tiger can fire mgs 8 times a turn.
thanks, John.



Alby -> (9/4/2001 8:46:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Zakhal:
Ive seen som bugs, but only with online. Heres few: -Shooting 7 times per round with a tiger tank(!)
-Cant reverse, only go forward (no cc)
-Damaged tanks exploding by-them-selves
-Shooting and still staying invisible even the opponent gets to shoot back. (not sure abt this)
There never has been a 'reverse"
Hmm never seen tanks self destrucing
have seen tanks with very good experience fire that many times
Shooting and staying invisible?? ya lost me on that one???



Paul Vebber -> (9/4/2001 8:50:00 AM)

-Shooting 7 times per round with a tiger tank(!) Each turn is several minutes. THearetically even a Tiger could shoot over 20 times in three minutes -Cant reverse, only go forward (no cc) Thats intentional. Makes you think ahead (and use recon troops to screen) -Damaged tanks exploding by-them-selves Probably shot by an unseen enemy, I have never seen a report of tanks just spontaneously combusting. Use the alt-L combat.txt log to see what shot you -Shooting and still staying invisible even the opponent gets to shoot back. (not sure abt this) Again this is intentional, sometimes an individual unit sees enough of a target to shoot, but it does not register to the "collective". Good examples of design decisions you may not agree with, but not a bug among them (. THere some bona fide "bugs" in online play, the most comon being shooting at the last atarget shotot at when an opfire is triggered becasue the games don;t synch on the location of the fire, so the shoot defaults to the last target held (or nothing if that target is dead) and "vampires" where a kill packet is lost and the two games disagree on whether a target is dead or not so it comes back to life. A few others. I don't mean to pick on you Zakhal - please don't take this as that, - I'm just using the opportunity to try to explain that there are typically several kinds of "bugs" and they are very different! 1) bonafide bugs that don't do at all what the programmer intended or the game crashes - "real" bugs. 2) "inconveinience" bugs - bugs that do what the programmer intended, but there is much easier (from the players point of view) way to do that 3) "opinion" bugs - "bugs" that are disagreements with the designer about how something is portrayed or implemented - to the designer its right and does just what he wants - but you thinks its wrong. 4) "bug-features" - "bugs" that are not intended by the designer, but can be looked on as a "feature" becasue the effect can be rationalized as something not altogether far-fetched 5) "phantom" bugs - the worst of all, bugs that occur so seldom or plague only specific combiations of OS, hardware and software, that often their existance is doubted, let alone being aboe to fix them. 6) "RTFM" bugs, bugs that aren;t even there, but are the result of the reporter not knowing that a feature is there, or not understanding how to do something, so frustrated, reports a bug. Several others I'm sure...



Zakhal -> (9/4/2001 9:00:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by john g:
Shooting 7 times? Was that op fire? Or the mg?
thanks, John.
Nopes, it wasnt OP fire. It was my turn. I shooted it, shooted it, shooted it, shooted it.etc etc 7 times till it got destroyed and with the main gun each time.



Zakhal -> (9/4/2001 9:03:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Alby:
There never has been a 'reverse"
Hmm never seen tanks self destrucing
have seen tanks with very good experience fire that many times
Shooting and staying invisible?? ya lost me on that one???
Didnt mean reverse, but backwards. I drove few hexes over the hill, got shooted, a miss. And even though i could still drive like 10 hexes forward (and prolly die to the next op fire) i couldnt drive at all backwards(!). So i had to smoke it to cover my tank. Invisible; i shoot at my opponents tank several times and each time he gets op fire, but he cant shoot back cos he doesnt see my unit(!)



Zakhal -> (9/4/2001 9:19:00 AM)

It just looked weird. Ive played one year of spwaw (online and email) and all these things happened in one game. And i had never seen them happening before except the self-compusting.
(Though yes, that could be a packet loss for me and my opponent. We didnt see my tank op fire successfully.) Like since couldnt one drive backwards but only forward (10 hexes max) after getting shot once?



jamiep1 -> (9/4/2001 9:26:00 AM)

I think Matrix is doing an excellent job! I only play solitaire so I have not really seen any serious bug that wasn't taken care of. I really love SPWAW & I know the Matrix team has got as much out of the horse as possible. I really love MCNA & look forward to Lost Victories. I'm looking forward to Combat Leader when it's released. The Matrix team has been loyal to us gamers & I will be loyal to them. They are really doing a superb job. JMHO. Jamie



David Heath -> (9/4/2001 11:54:00 AM)

Hi Fuerte We know about these bugs and we have tried MANY times to fix them. Either we can not nail down what is causing the problem ir the fix can cause more problems then what is already broken. Many of us did noy want to go pass v5.3 but a few of us and some time opening as we went along. Yes Matrix is in a major money jam and that is why we asked every interested in Close Assault or Combat Leader to please support us with purchases of Desert Fox and Lost Victories. But Fuerte please forward me an email on the bugs again and if you can recreate them and how to do them and I will take another look into it for you.



gnoccop -> (9/4/2001 2:20:00 PM)

A very B I G THANKS to Matrix!!! Wonderful game and fantastic support. (I play since SP1,2 & 3 but SPWAW is another planet!) I'll buy combat leader.



Tom Terror -> (9/4/2001 4:05:00 PM)

Like a many fellow gamers said before me:
SPWaW is the best game out there right now. I find myself loosing interest in any other game within ten minutes of playing because I miss the depth and accuracy of SPWaW. So despite of some bugs and flaws (wich any other game also has - only difference to SPWaW is: nobody cares!) it gives a gaming experience unrivalled by no other PC game. I'm eagerly waiting to see the release of CL/CA to witness the next big coup of Matrix. I know, time to stop being pathetic.
I just had to say it, feel better now. Keep going!! TomT



skukko -> (9/4/2001 6:35:00 PM)

This talking of bugs reminds me of great US-movie: Starship troopers. Ok, I am crashtestdummy but what bird is BTR ? Is Sovjets tracker from -60's ? I did loose something so I'll have to ask: Why it is LOL to play with Axis, -germans, finns, japs ? I do play all them and kick some US-hero-wannabees occasionally. Against pbem as well against AI... It really ain't funny to play against 'invisible-rally129-morale higher than SS' kinda US, but I do play as it is challenging. And instead of being affraid of bugs I've located, eliminated eated them and moved forward to find more. If I haven't found any I've been doing MC. My share to this community and my way to thanx Matrix for getting new life to SP-series. There is one solution if you think that something goes more wrong when bug is fixed or if you don't like changes forward: Play with older version. So does politics do... mosh



Tom Terror -> (9/4/2001 6:57:00 PM)

"There is one solution if you think that something goes more wrong when bug is fixed or if you don't like changes forward: Play with older version. So does politics do..."
Skukko, that's a good one!! TomT



Larry Holt -> (9/4/2001 8:19:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber:

As to teh cause' from what we can gather the memory requirements of the gaem have gone up and at least 64MB is needed, 128 is reccommended. We thing these sorts of errors are realted to Windows virtual memeory disk rights that throw teh 10 year old Watcom compiled code a curve ball. Consider it "Fog of War" and add more memory (CompUSA had 128MB FREE with rebate...)

Ah this is good to know. I have 128 and I have never seen most of these "bugs".



skukko -> (9/4/2001 8:42:00 PM)

I've have enough mem and can't even simulate some bugs... But really, what is BTR ?? mosh



Fuerte -> (9/4/2001 11:20:00 PM)

I knew that I would get some response. Fabs: The targeting bug happens in solitaire as well. I don't know about the trend, I have not read this forum for a while... of course SPWAW is free and I am very thankful for that. Paul Vebber: I never saw the targeting bug before 5.x. Targeting my own victory hex hardly is very realistic. I have 512 MB memory. Also the end game passwords could be implemented much better, it should work exactly as the normal turn:
1) The game ends for some reason (turn limit or somebody surrenders). The files are sent to opponent.
2) Opponent enters his (only his) password and views the results. Then he sends the files back.
3) The first player enters his (only his) password and views the results. Ruxius: Megacampaings opened to human opponents. A very good idea, that's why I didn't buy them, I only play PBEM currently. It is frustrating not to be able to see the end game results because it worked OK in earlier releases. David Heath: I understand the situation. One thing that worries me as well is that you are developing several games at once, Combat Leader and Close Assault, and some others. It might be better to focus on one game at first and make it bug-free. Also Kharan had a very good list of SPWAW bugs, I don't want to get into bug squashing at the moment. If I look back into different SPWAW releases, this is how they were, if I recall correctly: 2.x: Flawless execution of secure PBEM.
3/4: VCR didn't work.
5/6: VCR works, but the targeting bug appeared, and the end game results can't be viewed any more. Of course v4 had TCP/IP, which I have tried only once, and v5 has Mega Campaign, which I have not bought because it does not work with human opponent. So, from my point of view, the current release is worse than v2. I completely understand that many minor bugs have been fixed between these releases (and even the targeting bug is a minor one), and the game is now much faster than before, and that there are a lot of new graphics etc, but the end game result problem is a show stopper for me. This is now off topic, but one thing I would like to see in Combat Leader / Close Assault is the simultaneous plotting of moves and simultaneous execution of the turn (is it called WEGO?).



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