A Personal Observation:Playing as the Germans (Full Version)

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KG Erwin -> A Personal Observation:Playing as the Germans (3/21/2004 5:54:08 AM)

This is purely my opinion, but I always had certain reservations about playing as the Germans--sure, I admire their weapons, their sharp uniforms, their so-cool looking tanks, but it was always a guilty pleasure. For obvious reasons, it was always questionable to identify with these guys. However, after watching the Band of Brothers episode "Why We Fight", it really hit me. I know the history of the Holocaust, but this just brought it home to me. I will no longer play as the Germans, period. However, this does not mean that I disrespect the average German landser--

In the last few years I've increasingly been attracted to my own countrymen as warriors, for many reasons. I'm a Democrat, and basically a pacifist, but I am very proud of our military history, and I have become a big time fan of the Marine Corps.

I'm the forum moderator, and I'm supposed to keep my opinions to myself, but in this case I want to make my position clear. Every nation in this database , all 27 of them, deserve to be played. They all played their part in the largest conflict of the 20th Century.

I'm an unabashed American patriot, but I will not ridicule or denigrate the soldiers of any nation that participated in this war. They all fought for their countries and their brothers in arms, so they all deserve recognition.

Addendum: after playing repeated test battles as the USMC against the Japanese in 8.2, you can't help but admire their fighting abilities.
Nevertheless, I have no compunctions about killing them.
Banzai THIS, Tojo! [sm=00000054.gif]



Goblin -> RE: A Personal Observation:Playing as the Germans (3/21/2004 6:35:39 AM)

I fail to see how one group who commits atrocities is any better than another, and I also fail to see how it connects to a game...

If you won't play the Germans, then the Japanese are out too. Also, if you are a pacifist, then why not skip anyone who actually fought? It just seems really odd to make a random statement like this about a game you have played for years is all. You tipping them back tonight?[sm=party-smiley-012.gif]


Goblin



KG Erwin -> RE: A Personal Observation:Playing as the Germans (3/21/2004 6:44:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Goblin

I fail to see how one group who commits atrocities is any better than another, and I also fail to see how it connects to a game...

If you won't play the Germans, then the Japanese are out too. Also, if you are a pacifist, then why not skip anyone who actually fought? It just seems really odd to make a random statement like this about a game you have played for years is all. You tipping them back tonight?[sm=party-smiley-012.gif]

Eric, this is an opinion I've held for quite awhile. Of course, I also mentioned that racial animosity played a part in the Pacific War, but you wouldn't bring that up, would you?

As for the other, Eric, yup, drunken moderator alert [sm=party-smiley-012.gif]


Goblin



KG Erwin -> RE: A Personal Observation:Playing as the Germans (3/21/2004 7:07:09 AM)

Eric, that's a ridiculous satement. As for the USA and USMC, we were attacked , and this required a response that happened much later. Do you want me to give you a history lesson?



VikingNo2 -> RE: A Personal Observation:Playing as the Germans (3/21/2004 8:11:32 AM)

Play them all[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

But if it makes you feel better then just say that your German forces are part of the " Old Army " that didn't really believe Hitlers propaganda, and just wanted Germany to return to glory. [;)]



Palice -> RE: A Personal Observation:Playing as the Germans (3/21/2004 10:12:54 AM)

I have no problem to play the Germans in a tactical game, even if I prefer the Russians and the Americans. I have more problems in game like TOAW where there are some scenarios about the East Front where you have units like the SS Polizei toprotect you rear against the partisans.

LaPalice.



KG Erwin -> RE: A Personal Observation:Playing as the Germans (3/21/2004 10:32:37 AM)

Alright, guys, I apologize for taking advantage of my position to editorialize. I could just delete this entire thread, but I will leave it for now.
I am definitely guilty of sometimes letting my personal feelings get in the way of my better judgement, so forgive me for that.
With best regards to my fellow gamers,
Glenn



Muzrub -> RE: A Personal Observation:Playing as the Germans (3/21/2004 1:52:25 PM)

Personally I dont play as the Japanese.....

Maybe its because of their crimes, I dont really know. I just cant get into it.
I have read far to many books and seen way to many documentries on what they did during the and before the war years that have affected me, but most of all its their denial of crimes committed that really annoys me.

I know the Germans committed horrible crimes too, that cant be denied and I feel for the victims, I'm not just saying that either I cant imagine the horror of being shot and tossed into a pit or marched into a camp. But I can imagine the loss of family and friends and that is enough.

But as a youngster I was attracted to the Germans because they looked cool......That simple! It wasnt until later I found out what some of them had done but by then I was already well into my hobby and its one I cant give up, not now anyway. But I was never attracted to the Japanese in any way.

And on another personal note if anyone dosnt wish to play as any nation no matter the reason its their choice. I'm suprised so many Americans here want to be the Russians- hell during the cold war both the Soviets and the Yanks were willing to blow the world to hell.........
Basically its a personal preference......... whatever the reason.



Warrior2 -> RE: A Personal Observation:Playing as the Germans (3/21/2004 1:56:03 PM)

KG, I have no problem with your comments.



Frank W. -> RE: A Personal Observation:Playing as the Germans (3/21/2004 2:15:55 PM)

interesting thing is, that most german professionel military leaders
didnīt want the war - okay they wanted to get rid of the effects
of the versailles treaty also they found it okay to get the rhineland
and austria back... but not so much more. but hitler didnīt allow
such thoughts, he had his means to bring more willing people under
his command... see the generals beck, halder, von brauchitsch and
much others.

here some info:

http://www.joric.com/Conspiracy/Halder.htm#1938%20Plot

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/biography/beck.html

http://www.govsux.com/conspiracy_to_destroy_hitler.htm

i mean you should not regard all germans as criminals
in these times.



Goblin -> RE: A Personal Observation:Playing as the Germans (3/21/2004 3:19:52 PM)

Which comment was ridiculous, KG? A pacifist does not believe in fighting, for any reason.

Also, how did you take advantage of your position? I am getting more confused now...

I think Viking summed it up nice. Just play them all. Every nation commited atrocities. Every single one of them. I am sure you don't want to stop playing the game!


Goblin



tracer -> RE: A Personal Observation:Playing as the Germans (3/21/2004 4:03:35 PM)

My advice: when you see a thread like this, just say 'no'.[:-]

[sm=00000289.gif]



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> RE: A Personal Observation:Playing as the Germans (3/21/2004 4:17:06 PM)

There just pixels, and it's just history, and it's just a mental challenge. I see virtually no connect with the actions of the people involved.

Now if I was to dress up in an SS uniform, and proudly parade through a Jewish community during one of their more important religious holidays, THAT would be different.

But as for playing the germans, well aside from the fact, that between 39 and 42, playing the germans is basically akin to playing the default easy side in a lot of wargames. They have all the advantages, and only when the wargamer reeeeeeeeally screws up does he actually have to care for it during the end game.

In a tactical game like Steel Panthers, the germans are almost always the defacto "easy" side.

I recently played the Overlord Campaign for Strategic Command as the Allied side. Now that is different. I barely won too. Playing the germans now same campaign against same human opponent, and it's a different ball of wax. Looks like I am going to get folded spindled and mutilated hehe.

I always pick sides based on my current level of interest in challenge level. It neeeeeeeever has one iota to do with the actual people from the actual history.

I was not a WW2 era german soldier, and I was NOT responsible for their actions.

To think I am in any way condoning their past actions by using them as a tool to study history, or as a simple mental challenge, is well just silly.
Ranks up there with people saying I am involved with devil worship when I play Dungeons and Dragons.

Come on man, listen to your argument. I sounds like pure nonsense :)



JJKettunen -> RE: A Personal Observation:Playing as the Germans (3/21/2004 4:34:30 PM)

Methinks he is trying to screw up this community... [;)]



FNG -> RE: A Personal Observation:Playing as the Germans (3/21/2004 4:47:55 PM)

This is a tactical wargame - there are no politics, no civilians, no conventions, etc. I enjoy it as a game, and play any and all nations to gain a better understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of the equipment that they deployed in the bit of history between 1939 and 1945.

Beyond the game itself, what I *hope*, is that games like this give people an interest in the history of the period so that we can all learn what did happen in the social and political spheres in the hope that none of us ever allow such a catastrophe to happen again.



robot -> RE: A Personal Observation:Playing as the Germans (3/21/2004 4:49:03 PM)

I can not see how a pacifist can sit and play a mock war. The only way that makes sense iof you become a pacifist only during the time of war. At all other times you are not and do not practice what you claim to be. You should always be what you say you are. Not be selective when and at what time. Its the same with being a criminal. Then you are one even when you are caught.



Goblin -> RE: A Personal Observation:Playing as the Germans (3/21/2004 7:38:26 PM)

I am not necessarily cutting KG down for his decision, I just am confused about it, and about the need to post it to everyone. That and the whole moderator/personal opinion/position thing. Not sure what that had to do with the price of tea in China.

I personally hate playing as the Philipines. They suck.[;)]


Goblin



rich12545 -> RE: A Personal Observation:Playing as the Germans (3/21/2004 7:50:39 PM)

My two cents. If anybody shouldn't want to play the Germans it would be me, being Jewish. But I see no problem. This is a GAME. It isn't even close to real life. It's a game and as Les says the units bear absolutely no resemblance to real people living or dead, even the ss units. For someone to say he won't play the germans in a game because of the holocaust is, imo, silly.



robot -> RE: A Personal Observation:Playing as the Germans (3/21/2004 8:21:33 PM)

I am not cutting down erwin either. I just did not understand how you can say you are a pacifist and then play a barbaric war game, where the intent is to kill the other person. Even tho it is only a game, I believe if i was a dyed in the wool pacifist. I would play say a golf or fishing or a game like sim city not a war game.

The Germans are the most played nation in this game i think. Mostly for there neat weapons and the advantages they have in this game. I myself play all the nations regardless of there faults. It makes me think before i make a move. Granted i still mess up a lot. Mostly because i get impationent and believe i have the other side beat. If i stick to cautious and think slow not fast i do ok.



kensey -> RE: A Personal Observation:Playing as the Germans (3/21/2004 8:28:48 PM)

If you decide not to play the germans because of war
atrocities you should also stop playing soviets
as more people died in stalins gulags than in
nazi concentration camps.

I personally don't like playing russians and japanese
not because atrocities but because their style of warfare
is rather based on 'infanry is cheap and can die' than on
elaborate strategy. And as I am a pacifist myself I want
to see as few people die as possible, at least of
the side I am playing [;)]



KG Erwin -> RE: A Personal Observation:Playing as the Germans (3/21/2004 9:35:56 PM)

Hmmm, I never considered having pacifistic tendencies would automatically make one a conscientous objector. I see no contradictions at all in being a wargamer and a pacificist.
As for the Germans, they just don't appeal to me as they once did. However, it WOULD be silly if I were to suggest boycotting them, which I'm not. Other gamers don't take this aversion so far, but there are gamers who won't choose SS units.

There was an interesting discussion over at the SPWaW Depot about "Blood on the Hands of Both Sides". This was started for discussing the Pacific War, and the reaction of American troops to the Japanese style of war. Some US & USMC units didn't take prisoners, period. If a Japanese tried to surrender, some were just shot out of hand. This practice wasn't official US policy, but nonetheless it did happen. I find it disagreeable, but it doesn't lessen my patriotism or my desire to play SPWaW as the Americans.



returnfire -> RE: A Personal Observation:Playing as the Germans (3/22/2004 12:01:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: robot
I just did not understand how you can say you are a pacifist and then play a barbaric war game, where the intent is to kill the other person. Even tho it is only a game, I believe if i was a dyed in the wool pacifist. I would play say a golf or fishing or a game like sim city not a war game.


Well, I can understand how a "pacifist" can still play a war game. Think about it this way: by playing the war game, a person can gain some (simulated) "first-hand experience" about how horrible war is (despite the fact that all of us know that the "people" in the game are merely pixels and they're NOT REAL). In other words, their experience from war games enhances their belief that "war is hell." As a result, they hate war even more and become pacifists.

(You can also say that we're reversing the logic here, i.e. play war games->becomes pacifist.)

Not to mention that some people may use war games as a "stress-buster"-- I think this is totally okay as long as they know "all of these aren't real" (and needless to say, they shouldn't commit homicide-- duh!)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rich12545

My two cents. If anybody shouldn't want to play the Germans it would be me, being Jewish. But I see no problem. This is a GAME. It isn't even close to real life. It's a game and as Les says the units bear absolutely no resemblance to real people living or dead, even the ss units. For someone to say he won't play the germans in a game because of the holocaust is, imo, silly.


IIRC one of the previous versions of SPWaW has two subfolders under the "SHP" folder called "IronCross" and "Swastika." For those of you who see images of Hitler and the Holocaust upon seeing the swastika, you can simply replace the shp files with the ones provided in the "IronCross" folder. Or you can refrain from using SS units.



BulletMagnet -> RE: A Personal Observation:Playing as the Germans (3/22/2004 1:20:15 AM)

Playing germans dosnt bother me. The standard line infantry weirmark(spelling?) didnt commit any more attrocties than any other line unit.n So,logicaly if your against the attrocities boycott the ss units.We all know what they did on record. Maybe you shouldnt play the us because they dropped a atomic bomb. This thinking is ludicrous. Play the game and enjoy and relish the fact that you did not have to be in the position of the units we so easily move across the screen without a thought. War IS hell. If i was a mod id just lock this sucker down because its not going anywhere except the toilet.

BTW I think its awesome that the rhetoric has greatly calmed down and it is once more a more pleasant atmosphere.Good job everyone(even you Keke).[:D]



KG Erwin -> RE: A Personal Observation:Playing as the Germans (3/22/2004 1:55:31 AM)

Well, BulletMagnet, I think you have a point. This thread was my own fault, and it is indeed rhetorical and heading nowhere fast.
So, KG Erwin the editorialist gets slapped with a gag order by KG Erwin the moderator. [:o]

Postscript: I will unlock this thread, so you guys have at it. I will add this: this is an international forum, and discussions involving personal political opinions rightfully belong in ethe AoW forum, but, for the American members, I'll say this:

After the events of 9/11, I sat back and thought about what my role as an American citizen should be. I'm a government worker, but I'm a public servant, too. This only made me think more about the role of the American military, especially during the period represented by SPWaW. This only makes me more proud of the sacrifices made by American troops in all theaters of the Second World War. For this reason, I choose to pay as an American in my SPWaW battles.

This isn't rah-rah flag-waving patriotic jingoism--for my part, it's a simple recognition of what the average GI and the Leatherneck did all those years ago. There is no reason why I should not be proud of the American soldier of WWII.

For the international members, this does NOT mean that I lessen or denigrate the sacrifices and supreme valor exhibited by the soldiers of any combatant nations in this greatest of all wars--on the contrary, they hould ALL be honored and this is what the game tries to represent.

The point is clear--every nation had its heroes, and the men who just did their jobs as soldiers the best they could. As has been said before, in the trench or the foxhole or in the advance, the only thing that matters is the man next to you--this is what SPWaW is truly all about.



Major_Johnson -> RE: A Personal Observation:Playing as the Germans (3/23/2004 6:36:34 PM)

Well I'll tell ya, I can play any side except the Japanese. And it's all because of their treatment of prisoners and war ethics. And even if I think about it, it doesn't make any sense, because nobody fight's fair in war.

And KG you mentioned about the USMC shooting Japanese soldiers, as a rule. Did you ever see the episode on the history channel about the American submarine force in WW2? The one episode had a seen of an American submariner, with what I believe was Thomson MG, shooting a Japanese survivor of a submarine attack on a freighter, while he floating in the water clinging to some type fo debris. I mean, they even showed the kill shot.

Now I'm a Republican (since I've seen some others post their political affiliation), and also a pacifist at heart. I believe in live and let live, and let's all hit the strip club!! But I also believe in being proactive rather than reactive.

Now this thread might be going nowhere as far as the game goes, but it does give an insight to some of the people who play the game!! And I think that that is worth reading!! Thanks!!



Tombstone -> RE: A Personal Observation:Playing as the Germans (3/23/2004 7:50:57 PM)

We all have one prejudice or another. I'm certainly prejudiced against the WW2 german SS, soviet NKVD, and the Japanese in general. The atrocities they committed are significant and serious. It doesn't stop me from playing as any of them in tactical wargames though. Hell, the only scenario I ever completed covers an SS PanzerGrenadier Division. I think this is an interesting discussion though, when do you cross the line into glorification? I personally think that the line is somewhat clear, we all know those Nazi enthusiast types, you see them on other forums and such with their ignorant worship of the Germans or Japanese. I make a concerted effort to research all the wrong doings that occurred by belligerent forces during modern wartimes, it's like the Jane Fonda thread. You need to make sure you've done whatever you can to know the truth about a thing, especially something as emotionally charged as SS units. It is interesting, though, to see that everyone commits a certain number of atrocities no matter what the philosophical stance of the nation is. Some philosophies, however, yield much worse behavior than others. Totalitarian governments tend to pull the human outta the soldier better than democratic/socialist ones. We can look at Africa for a recent study of the horrors of war. It seems like the best behavior you see outta troops are the US soldiers of today. I'm really impressed at how our armed forces really are professional soldiers who do their job and duty without going mad and losing sight of their humanity. Sure, the war they see now isn't perhaps as ugly as things have been in the past and that's not to say behavior is perfect, but it is a hell of a lot better.

Tomo



John David -> RE: A Personal Observation:Playing as the Germans (3/23/2004 8:16:43 PM)

Gunny, I think this has been a very cathartic thread, and it has served a useful purpose. Major_Johnson's last paragraph is well said.

I have no problem playing any side or nationality in SPWAW or any other wargame. I look at most German soldiers as just that, soldiers. Heck, my second favorite military man is Erwin Rommel,(All Hail Patton[&o]) and I look upon the German army as one of the best in history. It is also very rewarding and fun to play the German side, using their weapons and tactics. Besides, if I didn't want to play as the Germans, I would then be cutting myself off from many of the best scenarios and campaigns, not to mention not even being able to play MCNA & MCLV!!

I try to keep an open mind about everything and from all points of view. I have my strong opinions and feelings sure, but one learns with an open mind.

JD



RockinHarry -> RE: A Personal Observation:Playing as the Germans (3/23/2004 8:49:57 PM)

Weīd better care with things that happen in our world nowadays, donīt we? Btw, Iīm german, age of 37 and..what was in germany (or elsewhere) 60 years ago? I donīt care, as I canīt change. so I obviously donīt feel guilty for anything. Beside that I know Iīm just "playing" wargames and donīt really hurt or kill anybody![;)]

My 2 cents.



AmmoSgt -> RE: A Personal Observation:Playing as the Germans (3/24/2004 8:05:56 AM)

I don't think the sins of the fathers should be visited upon the sons. But I do think a hard and pityless look at History is the only thing that can keep humanity from repeating the mistakes made by countries in the past. I am always amazed at how folks can get simple facts so wrong. The Wehrmacht was up to their ears in the attrocities, The SS was lead by political relaibles regardless of military skill. Those are facts even a simple web search can verify. Germans were mere humans, possesing neither excepional military skill or bravery, they had some inovative tactics early on , thats all. The Hitties had chariots and tactics to exploit them and they kicked butt in their day too.
see http://www.panzerace.net/main/tarnished.asp?chapter=06. I delibertely selected this one website because it mentions a few allied attrocities as well. Excesses ocurr in war, it is wether or not they are the exception rather than the rule that an Army or Nation is judged. The Nazi's deserve the harshest judgement ( as does the Stalinist era in Russia and Japanese in Korea and China) IMHO . For me personally I seldom play the Axis for the simple reason I cannot stand to lose , and I hate to see the axis win , so I know I won't feel good either way it comes out when I play the axis. The evil lies not in playing the Germans , but in glorfying them , or perpetuating the myth that they were supermen or somehow some were not touched by the evil of the propaganda that they were supermen and other races were mud people and less than human. However much we( the US) may have hated , even racially, the enemies of the United States during WW2 , we treated them as humans in Victory and usually when captured. That cannot be said for the Germans or Japanese. The Stalinst Russians didn't treat anybody like humans, friend or foe, so I don't know what to say about them. Stalin probably came close to killing more Russian officers before the war than the Germans did during the war.
Play who ya want IMHO , just don't go around making excuses for the wehrmacht as being guiltless , when they were as likely to be guarding the death camps or shooting civilians as any SS goon.



Renaud -> RE: A Personal Observation:Playing as the Germans (3/24/2004 4:27:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AmmoSgt

The evil lies not in playing the Germans , but in glorfying them , or perpetuating the myth that they were supermen or somehow some were not touched by the evil of the propaganda that they were supermen and other races were mud people and less than human. However much we( the US) may have hated , even racially, the enemies of the United States during WW2 , we treated them as humans in Victory and usually when captured. That cannot be said for the Germans or Japanese. The Stalinst Russians didn't treat anybody like humans, friend or foe, so I don't know what to say about them. Stalin probably came close to killing more Russian officers before the war than the Germans did during the war.
Play who ya want IMHO , just don't go around making excuses for the wehrmacht as being guiltless , when they were as likely to be guarding the death camps or shooting civilians as any SS goon.


AmmoSgt, you made once again the right conclusion, and I can only agree with you.

It happens to me to play with the German side, but only when the scenario gives me no other option. At first glance, I'm not far away from KG's position:

1- I hate war but I'm a wargame-addict since more than 20 years. Simply said, I play wargames not because I'm in love with fighting, tanks, guns or anything else, but just because it's an intellectual challenge. To win a battle, you have to rely on rationality and good planning, but you'll go nowhere without improvisation and a bit of luck.

2- I don't like playing with the Germans or Japanese because it implies (in my eyes, I mean) that I'm playing the role of a 1939-45 German/Japanese commander. And this means I'm an invader serving a country dominated by a racist and destructive ideology. And I don't enjoy this at all... As some of you already know, I've been an officer in the Belgian army (and I'm still in the reserve cadre). This is no problem for me as Belgium is a democracy and will never have plans to invade any other country in the world. It would be very different if I was born in an expansionist / dictatorial country...

This being said, a last word about the Wehrmacht implication in the holocaust and the war atrocities: it's indeed completely false to think that only the SS were guilty. It would imply that it is possible to make war focusing on the 'how' without asking questions about the 'why'. A typical dictatorial statement, abundantly used during the Nuremberg trials by criminals. Von Manstein, for example, was a die-hard Nazi and he was perfectly aware of what was happening behind the lines. Many other German high-rank officers had heard about the 'final solution', but only thought about killing Hitler when it became obvious that the war was lost and that it was the only hope to save Germany from foreign occupation... Think about it !

(NB: please note that this does NOT mean I hate Germany/Japan or Germans/Japanese at all ! I only hate racism and dictatorship...)



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