I really hate seeing the word "bug" in postings (Full Version)

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Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> I really hate seeing the word "bug" in postings (10/10/2001 12:43:00 AM)

Guys I have to say that the word "bug" seems to get used around here in the same manner that every dumb schmuck civilian uses the word "army tank" for virtually anything owned by the military. What is also vexing, is that most of these "bugs" (when I get a chance to read the posts) come off sounding like they are nothing more than a persons petty complaints, about some absolutely insignificant aspect of the game's performance. Which has not been at that time identified as a "bug". If the game had all the "bugs" I have read about, I would have had to spray my monitor with a can of raid a long time ago. if something doesnt quite look right, look into it, but try keep the posts cleaner and more or less uncluttered with hysterical messages about "bugs". How about checking your computer with an updated anti virus first. Its been my experience, if your game is acting funny, its probably because you have screwed up your own computer in some way. Loading game after game as most users do also screws up your computer half of the time. The only time Steel Panthers has ever done anything "funny" to me was when I had a "virus" on the system. And I cant see any reason to ask Matrix to "fix" their game just because "my" platform was fouled up.



Larry Holt -> (10/10/2001 1:04:00 AM)

Generally a "bug" is when code does not operate as orginally intended. A feature is when it operates as the orginally intended but you don't like it. The first computer bug was literally a moth that got caught in a relay of an early computer thus causing it to malfunction. The moth is preserved in a museaum and is the origin of the term "bug".



Grumble -> (10/10/2001 2:48:00 AM)

Les, SHACK.
Paul made a similar statement back in July IIRC, about people screaming "defect" when its really;
1- What they want is already available, if they'd just use the selection screen.
2- "There's an Allied/Axis (specifically "german") bias". As above, or their history, is to put it politely less than fully researched.
3- "I don't like xxx". Well get over it IMHO. Adapt to the game and use its world-view to execute your tactics. It's a GAME after all and the not the be-all and end-all of tactical simulation; though it is a pretty good one.



Red Baron -> (10/10/2001 3:27:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Grumble:

3- "I don't like xxx". Well get over it IMHO. Adapt to the game and use its world-view to execute your tactics. It's a GAME after all and the not the be-all and end-all of tactical simulation; though it is a pretty good one.
Generally i hate to say things like i do now, i meen, "I totally agree with you" to make a post to say that ofen is a waste of good space on the board BUT in this case i couldnīt agree more!!!
Regards..Michael.



chief -> (10/10/2001 6:30:00 AM)

Sarge: Well said....I also have had absolutely no trouble with the operation of SPWAW. I believe BUGS are caused by the faster operating speeds of machines, they're just too fast. Simplistic maybe?
But none the less true. Just look at the configurations of the comps that are having the problems. Just had to get that in.



panda124c -> (10/10/2001 10:36:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1:
Guys I have to say that the word "bug" seems to get used around here in the same manner that every dumb schmuck civilian uses the word "army tank" for virtually anything owned by the military. What is also vexing, is that most of these "bugs" (when I get a chance to read the posts) come off sounding like they are nothing more than a persons petty complaints, about some absolutely insignificant aspect of the game's performance. Which has not been at that time identified as a "bug". If the game had all the "bugs" I have read about, I would have had to spray my monitor with a can of raid a long time ago. if something doesnt quite look right, look into it, but try keep the posts cleaner and more or less uncluttered with hysterical messages about "bugs". How about checking your computer with an updated anti virus first. Its been my experience, if your game is acting funny, its probably because you have screwed up your own computer in some way. Loading game after game as most users do also screws up your computer half of the time. The only time Steel Panthers has ever done anything "funny" to me was when I had a "virus" on the system. And I cant see any reason to ask Matrix to "fix" their game just because "my" platform was fouled up.
One could always take the MS route and tell everyone that it's not a 'bug' but an enhancement.
I do have to agree, particulary all the 'bugs' caused by not deleting the steel.pfs file.



Larry Holt -> (10/10/2001 11:57:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by chief:
Sarge: Well said....I also have had absolutely no trouble with the operation of SPWAW. I believe BUGS are caused by the faster operating speeds of machines, they're just too fast. Simplistic maybe?
But none the less true. Just look at the configurations of the comps that are having the problems. Just had to get that in.

I doubt this. It is true that software can work fine on slow machines then have problems on faster ones due to thread contention and dependencies but SPWaW is not a multi-threaded application. Each command that runs, just runs faster. Sound (& possibley the video output)could be an exception to this since the their hardware operates in parallel with the CPU/memory and can become desynchronized.



Charles2222 -> (10/11/2001 1:25:00 AM)

Not only that, but those high-end computers will one day be YOUR computer, when they're more the low or mid level that's out. What that translates to is that we owe a DEBT OF GRATITUDE to those who are running high end and talking of bugs all the time. Without them trying to get their systems operating and complaining about the bugs, our mid and low-level computers would still have those bugs (I'm always running mid and low-level BTW). Those Windows 2000 and other newer buggy systems users need to complain more so when I need a faster computer it'll be bug-free. Bug, how I love the word, best squashed by those with higher-end systems than me.



GI Seve -> (10/11/2001 8:56:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_22:
Not only that, but those high-end computers will one day be YOUR computer, when they're more the low or mid level that's out. What that translates to is that we owe a DEBT OF GRATITUDE to those who are running high end and talking of bugs all the time. Without them trying to get their systems operating and complaining about the bugs, our mid and low-level computers would still have those bugs (I'm always running mid and low-level BTW). Those Windows 2000 and other newer buggy systems users need to complain more so when I need a faster computer it'll be bug-free. Bug, how I love the word, best squashed by those with higher-end systems than me.
Hehe Well my pleasure to be that crash dummy tester on my Millenium edition (ME)Windows(virus tm)operating system wich is run by fairly good cpu too = latest simulator games work just fine.
Though I just have to wonder what kinda miraculous settings those slow cpu's must have not to be experiencing any bugs?!?
As I recall old cpu's where those with more problems than new ones...
Bugs are everywhere in cpu world and that's fact and unlike someone here thinks that they can be killed by spraying RAID to screen they can be fixed only by continuous waste of time on coding
Really I agree that there is too much of this bug talk but there are still some polishing to be done on this already now great SPWAW engine.It's really only to make this 99,9% perfect game(I don't believe to 100% bug freenes on any program)



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (10/11/2001 8:59:00 PM)

Hmmmmm well being Scottish in nature (I am of scottish origins to so dont get disgusted at me for saying that), its highly unlikely I will own a "hi end system" soon. Actually I rather despise the practice of forcing me to participate in an endless spiral of computer upgrades. Microsoft this one is for you (insert raised middle finger here). I dont really care how wonderful Windows XP is. I dont care a whit if its the most stable Windows ever. They blew there chance when they made Win 95 98 98se ME and never once made any of them able to just run older software.
I wont be buying a computer just so I can run a specific program especially Windows. Right now I have a CPU the monitor keyboard mouse printer scanner and can add a burner if need be. I am fully functional. I have a fast net connection, and I can run the two best computer wargames ever made Steel Panthers and Operational Art of War. So Charles enthusiasm is lost on me. Of course I am lucky too I guess. Much of my wargaming is actually real wargaming. I prefer to play face to face games on my dining table much more. This is precicely why I have no interest in the delima of hi end systems. But I guess some will have to go through this hassle.



panda124c -> (10/11/2001 9:38:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1:
Hmmmmm well being Scottish in nature (I am of scottish origins to so dont get disgusted at me for saying that), its highly unlikely I will own a "hi end system" soon. Actually I rather despise the practice of forcing me to participate in an endless spiral of computer upgrades.
Hey, I have on of those high end machine, wait a minute that was last week, never mind.



Charles2222 -> (10/12/2001 12:21:00 AM)

Les: You ever hear of the phrase "you have to start somewhere"?
quote:

And I cant see any reason to ask Matrix to "fix" their game just because "my" platform was fouled up.
Maybe it's just me, but I would anticipate that at least 50% of people with problems start some where. Sometimes, that ends up being the software people, in this case Matrix. I've worked a great deal in mainframe computing, no expert by any means, but I do observe on a VERY regular basis where people start, some where, which often isn't the place where it is (even in the broadest sense, such as one person thinkiing it's the software, the other thinks hardware, and both may be experts). Today was a perfect case in point. My manager concluded that I should contact a software company for a problem that has been ongoing for a week (something we've been experimenting with and able to work around). We talked the problem over, but my having to deal with it, myself, was just aching to get out of calling those techie guys, so I looked further on my own, and voila I found the problem. I don't conclude my manager is an idiot or whiner or whatever because he looked in the wrong place. So, how do you know when it's your computer and not the software? I've been around a lot of techie guys for a long time, and if they're wrong as much as they are (even about the basic question of whether it's hardware or software), the common SP user sure will be. I say take the easiest path. It's a lot easier to see if Matrix software is the problem by asking simple questions, than it is to come up with about 5-10 hardware/software things that have been done wrong on our systems that may had led to the problem, which may have to send us 5-10 different directions with getting advice. In any case, you have to start some where. Trying what I did was at least 20X easier than dealing with CA. What's the worst that can happen, we turned the wrong direction for help? Happens every day in computing and is WAY too complex, even for the experts, to ever stop. [ October 11, 2001: Message edited by: Charles_22 ]



Charles2222 -> (10/12/2001 5:45:00 AM)

The weirdest thing just happened. I had SPWAW up, alongside Realplayer. I use Realplayer to play an occassional song, usually martial in origin whilst wargaming. I just fired with one unit it's full allotment of shots and cut over to Realplayer to hit a song. I decided on the Speed Racer theme for some reason, then I flipped back to the game. The game appeared to be "racing". I've never seen a tv or monitor do what it was doing. I could see some SPWAW figures and it looked as though that one screen was rolling about 50 screens per second from bottom to top. It wasn't like when you see a tv picture roll, but it's the closest thing I can think of. I've had and played that particular song a number of times and no problems. Now, though the problem is unlikely to reoccur and is gone now, but should it reoccur, who should I call for this bug: Matrix, Realplayer, or Racer X? I would consider Speed, but his older brother would know better and doesn't have some skirt chasing him keeping him from making bug-free songs.



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (10/12/2001 7:37:00 AM)

Ya know Matrix did a great thing when they produced SPWaW from the original just plain Steel Panthers. They didnt re invent the game, just played with it till it was more usable. Now that is my message. Dont re invent the wheel, just make that same wheel better. That is what I want from Windows Mr. Bill.
If my computer blew up today, well naturally if some wierd miracle allowed me to buy another (and I stress wierd miracle here) odds are I would have Windows XP on it. And not that I would mnd so much but, its not likely I would be overjoyed either.
Rather than make Windows XP (or 98 or ME for that matter), I would have rather liked to see ole Mr Bill fix Win 95. No, not re release it as Win 98 but make Win 95 actually work.
I realise this might not be an obvious distinction. But Win 95 took only so much computer to run. 98 took more, ME took even more, now XP wont even run on this computer.
So its not fair to say Windows XP is merely a "fixed" Windows, it is not even the same program. And I dont see any reason to assume it will be any better a program in the end. That is where what Matrix has done, has my respect. They took Steel Panthers and made it run. They made it run better and better. But its still Steel Panthers. I havent had to buy a new computer to play version 7 either. I wont have any trouble enjoying MC either. Matrix might be working on games that will "play better", but its entirely unlikely I will be playing them. Cant sell an eskimo a refrigerator, and my wheel works fine, so re inventing it seems silly to me. Them bells and whistles just dont wash with me.
This is of course not much good if the point is to make money. That much I am aware of. I would have gladly spent money on SPWaW for that matter though. I like the game, it works, and its worth money to me. I cant be faulted that Matrix doesnt have the actual right to sell it. But I see all merchandise the same way I see military equipment. I want Windows 95 version 1, version 2 version 3 version 4 version 5 etc until it just cant be made better. And all along I want it to still be Windows 95, no more complicated for my computer to run than the first version. I apply all this to hardware too naturally. But at least with hardware, an upgrade normally is an upgrade. I remember my IBM PS1, my first computer. Sure have come a fair good distance in capacity. Whats annoying is that the hardware upgrades rarely last because software makers are not inerested in making continually better software, merely making it more complicated.



Charles2222 -> (10/12/2001 7:36:00 PM)

Les: I hear ya, but it sounds as though the subject of this thread was directed at USERS who complain of bugs/possible bugs (me being the most recent before your complaint), and not MS et al. MS has heard tons of complaints I'm sure, and it's probably done 'some' good, but then there are companies who are less independant and so the complaints, or wish to get what might be bugs, fixed, get a hearing. Since Paul made his point about bug reports, it may be fashionable to throw out the same message, but as when I made my recent post about what I thought might be bugs, my problem is none the more fixed for nobody responding (to that thread), nor for such glib speeches. Put yourself in my place and see how it feels to have your problem ignored and then have someone dogpile onto with what is questionable opinion at best. Sure, I want Matrix to have more time for CL too (which I guess is what's driving this), but if your SP were acting as mine was, and I'm still not sure it's fixed, would you just shut up and wait the 6+ monthes till CL comes out? I didn't.



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (10/14/2001 4:23:00 AM)

Yo Charles
on a sympathetic note I can feel for you on threads that seem to wander off into oblivion. Have seen more than a few good looking threads do just that, wander off into oblivion (and not always mine of course). When all the posts regarding any matter connected with Sept 11 got stuck into Art of Wargaming, well me I basically said good bye them in my case. It was distressing to see some good threads get dumped in there, but oh well the managerial team at Matrix made the right choice to do it. Sometimes good threads fizzle, sometimes they dont. But thats fate luck and all that sort of thing.



john g -> (10/14/2001 6:54:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_22:
The weirdest thing just happened. I had SPWAW up, alongside Realplayer. I use Realplayer to play an occassional song, usually martial in origin whilst wargaming. I just fired with one unit it's full allotment of shots and cut over to Realplayer to hit a song. I decided on the Speed Racer theme for some reason, then I flipped back to the game. The game appeared to be "racing". I've never seen a tv or monitor do what it was doing. I could see some SPWAW figures and it looked as though that one screen was rolling about 50 screens per second from bottom to top. It wasn't like when you see a tv picture roll, but it's the closest thing I can think of. I've had and played that particular song a number of times and no problems. Now, though the problem is unlikely to reoccur and is gone now, but should it reoccur, who should I call for this bug: Matrix, Realplayer, or Racer X? I would consider Speed, but his older brother would know better and doesn't have some skirt chasing him keeping him from making bug-free songs.
You might have better luck if you switched to something like winamp to play files while you play games. I have had realplayer do some strange things in the past. I have it on my system, but only to play .rm's (some Dr. Who material comes that way) and don't appreciate the way it consistantly edits itself back into startup and the systray any time it is used.
thanks, John.



Charles2222 -> (10/14/2001 8:37:00 AM)

john g: Fascinating. My RP doesn't do that. It seems like it did once upon a time. I have a shortcut, as people generally do, for it, and access it through that only. I'm pretty sure I actually did something to disable it switching to systray or what not, but I tend to adjust things as I go and generally forget how I did it, till the next time I need to perhaps reverse it and go through the same experimental method. It also seems to me that the 'speeding' track is the only of the hundreds I've played that have done anything the slightest bit out of the ordinary (and I don't consider a possible computer slowdown at the end of a track to be such).



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