RE: SRA (Full Version)

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Raverdave -> RE: SRA (5/11/2004 12:56:45 AM)

Suva ![X(] I never saw it coming. Drats ! But on the good side Suva is nice and close to NZ which has some good ports for Sub bases! I'm gonna starve the bugger !!!!
The bad part is that I am now at work and wil not be able to see the above move for the next 11 hours.[:(]



pasternakski -> RE: SRA (5/11/2004 1:27:20 AM)

So WitP allows the Japanese enough military and logistical capability to invade - and capture - Fiji on January 4, 1942.

I guess the White House will fall by March.

You know, this had better not be a 70 dollar waste of time.



Mr.Frag -> RE: SRA (5/11/2004 1:42:23 AM)

Japan can invade pretty much anywhere should players choose to not use the historical first turn due to the extended move allowed to all shipping. Allow it's use at your own peril or deny it's use and play historically.

One must look at these types of things realistically.

(a) Historical first turn
(b) Historical first turn with various outcomes
(c) Historical first turn with no surprise
(d) Free for all Japan
(e) Free for all Japan & Allies
(f) House Rules to limit FFA

The choice is yours! It is your $70 [:D]

One other thing to really note: Invading is the easy part. Logistics to feed them later is the tough part.



pasternakski -> RE: SRA (5/11/2004 1:56:07 AM)

No, no, no, no. I'm not buying this anymore.

There have to be some realistic constraints placed on Japanese ability to wander all over the world and land wherever the player wants, "historical" or "non-historical" first turn notwithstanding. This is war, not the Love Boat.

I have been one of the staunchest supporters of this company in these forums, but the pandering in the interest of "balancing the game" just has to stop.

I also absolutely object to the "it's your 70 dollars" nonsense.

I'll shut up now, because my pal Vic will probably want to dropkick me through the goalposts of life. Sometimes, I wonder why I hang around here. I know it's not because I enjoy AoW so much...



Mr.Frag -> RE: SRA (5/11/2004 2:22:14 AM)

I don't get your issue. A special first turn ability was required for Japanese shipping to allow PH and other landings to happen. Because of this, the Japan player can abuse this ability should the Allied player agree.

Overall in the hands of two players who can agree on a acceptable middle ground, it is a perfect solution.

Should players not be able to agree on what constitutes acceptable, there are multiple options available for resolving this "dispute".

I fail to understand why you have an issue with people choosing the "free for all" option. It is between them what they do, not between you and 2by3.

Frankly, in the overall scheme of the game, anything Japan is allowed to do makes little difference to the end result. In effect, it makes things simpler for the USA because "they" have no delusions of being able to magically blunt Japan's advances until "they" build up "their" required support by "themselves" without paying attention to any of "their" Allies. [;)]



Luskan -> RE: SRA (5/11/2004 3:01:38 AM)

He is going to get a game with zero to no replayability, and just about as much fun as watching paint dry because variation and variety and surprise are the spice of life. Why can't I invade suva? Why couldn't the japs do it in real life?? I guarantee a surprise attack, on the 2nd of jan by any japs troops would have been successfull and wouldn't have lost almost a thousand men so why are you bitching??

Every time I pull off a masterstroke some delicate little wargamer faints![8|]

I allocated the forces for this op on turn 1 - and although they didn't actually use the extended early move, they've been sailing at full speed NOT FROM JAPAN but from MUCH MUCH CLOSER for weeks. There is nothing at Suva to defend against my little invasion there. I'm going to take the place, dump in some supplies and then when the going gets tough, yank my planes out and leave a heroic group of defenders.

Japan does not have the logistic capability to supply Suva indefinately. In fact, not for very long at all. What it does allow me to do is break up communications at an early stage - and force Raver's resources further back from the SRA, where I'm still consolidating my position. The whole point of this is to stretch raver - force him to react (because if he doesn't I'm going to chop his supply line off). When I get the turn prong 3 will be a huge success, there will be lots of promotions and rejoicing. I was tempted to try Noumea but there are probably too many troops there to begin with (I've only used a couple of smaller forces, no divisions or regiments in this invasion!).

It isn't like PI is progressing as fast as it did historically - so in the grand scheme of things I'm behind, not in front.



Mr.Frag -> RE: SRA (5/11/2004 3:17:29 AM)

[:D]

I support you Luskan, personally though I would have gone for Noumea ... basically the same distance to go yet it already has a tasty airfield built up for you to get some aircraft in fast. Fiji is nice but takes time to build and doesn't have the massive stockpile of fuel that Noumea has. [;)]



norsemanjs -> RE: SRA (5/11/2004 3:38:05 AM)

I think it's a good move too. Raver cannot let you stay on such an important LOC, he will have to launch a counter at some point in the near future. For now he can send in his subs which will make it very costly to keep in supply. On the other hand where would you rather have his subs tied up?

This will probably make your Darwin operation a bit easier, he will be forced to deal with Darwin with what he has in that area and less likely to try and move units from the east.

This should tie up a decent amount of allied resources for a couple of months.



Raverdave -> RE: SRA (5/11/2004 3:41:56 AM)

Yup....you idiot bananananana....it should have been Noumea.....all I have there are some REMFS sunbaking and mixing with the native girls.



norsemanjs -> RE: SRA (5/11/2004 3:45:30 AM)

Can you tell us what this op has cost you?

I have a feeling that the cost/reward should be pretty high.

It will be interesting to see what the ultimate cost to both of you will be for this op. And how many of Raver's resource you tie up and for how long.



Luskan -> RE: SRA (5/11/2004 3:51:23 AM)

two transports that may or may not make it home, at least 1 destroyer, a thousand men dead, and 3 of the smaller inf units are at about half strength (they weren't the really small ones, naval gds units IIRC). An eng unit, a small av unit and a small art unit which ALL should have been in the PI.

However, they won't be staying too long. Just long enough to bloody Raver's back yard a bit.

Noumea is too big a fish at the moment. Suva is closer to pearl - and if midway is next (so I can ring pearl on two sides) I don't want to have to go that far.

Besides, I have other, similar raids planned for the future that thess ships and troops are needed for!



Mr.Frag -> RE: SRA (5/11/2004 4:30:23 AM)

Naw, Noumea is a piece of pie waiting for you. Nothing there but some mine fields.

Send in 6th Base (for moving Nells in quick!), 61st & 53rd Naval Guard units.

180,000 fuel sitting there and the Brass Ring! Kicking South Pacific HQ off the base into nowhere means that none of the units attached to South Pacific can get stuff because it is out of supply rotting on a little trail! No upgrades for all those air groups [:D]

It is one of my evil tactics. [X(]



Luskan -> RE: SRA (5/11/2004 4:58:28 AM)

too big a fish does not = I don't have the troops (although just about every unit in the jap oob is moving somewhere!)... noumea maybe, but not part of my original plan.

I have three more operations (Snot, Phlegm and Pus) waiting in the wings (shortly to be followed by operation Smoothie!). They are waiting for Raver's CVs to be sighted. I don't even need to sink them! I just need to know where they are and soon as I know that, one, or maybe two operatoins will go full steam ahead, knowing he can't reach them in time, and the third will be canx.

Of course, I'm wondering which ops need my cvs for protection.



DoomedMantis -> RE: SRA (5/11/2004 6:39:16 AM)

nice move, ill be watching for it



Philwd -> RE: SRA (5/11/2004 6:53:46 AM)

Bravo Luskan. I'm glad to see WiTP rewards creative thinking. It appears what you have accomplished both in China and at Suva are within historical capabilities. You are trading off a delay somewhere else to delay Raver's getting firepower into Oz. Interesting tradeoff. I'll be very interested to see how your little diversions cost you time wise in the PI and SRA.

Cheers,
Quark



pad152 -> RE: SRA (5/11/2004 8:01:47 AM)

Can the allies mount a counter assault this early? I remember PacWar, it took couple of months for the allies to gather forces and start the build up of supplies before you could start re-taking anything.

Japan can't win the war, but they sure can cause a lot of trouble early on. This sure looks like fun![:D]



Raverdave -> RE: SRA (5/11/2004 8:56:13 AM)

I can most probaly use local units to launch pin **** attacks, but really there is little that I can do at this point. The political points system is what stops you from loading up every LCU and shipping them to a hot spot.



Ron Saueracker -> RE: SRA (5/11/2004 9:02:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

So WitP allows the Japanese enough military and logistical capability to invade - and capture - Fiji on January 4, 1942.

I guess the White House will fall by March.

You know, this had better not be a 70 dollar waste of time.



Gee...so all the effort made by allies to reinforce the South Pacific was a waste of time because it could not be done! [>:] This WAS possible!... What is your problem!?



Ron Saueracker -> RE: SRA (5/11/2004 9:13:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

No, no, no, no. I'm not buying this anymore.

There have to be some realistic constraints placed on Japanese ability to wander all over the world and land wherever the player wants, "historical" or "non-historical" first turn notwithstanding. This is war, not the Love Boat.

I have been one of the staunchest supporters of this company in these forums, but the pandering in the interest of "balancing the game" just has to stop.

I also absolutely object to the "it's your 70 dollars" nonsense.

I'll shut up now, because my pal Vic will probably want to dropkick me through the goalposts of life. Sometimes, I wonder why I hang around here. I know it's not because I enjoy AoW so much...


Sorry...failed to read the entire newer elements of the forum. Remember, this is just an AAR based on the present game setup. I'm sure that many of seemingly weird situations are extreme moves. The point of testing time is to "stretch things to the limit' to make sure that these possibilities, if really are physically impossible, are curbed somewhat prior to release. These apparently ahistorical moves are possible because fog of war can only go so far. We know the OOBs at the start. C'est la game.

Serenity Now![:)]



fabertong -> RE: SRA (5/11/2004 9:20:58 AM)

I don't know about everyone else, but I can't wait for operation Phlegm...



kellyc -> RE: SRA (5/11/2004 9:46:36 AM)

Just wanted to say nice move taking Fiji.
It's good to see such options available that at the least will make replayability a joy. Don't let afew others who scream for the 'historical or nothing' crowd get you down. I agree with the sentiment that the Japanese can attack just about anywhere if they're willing to give up other operations and resources. Holding what they take later on is of course an entirely different (and very realistic) story. I've been lurking here reading the forums and starting to learn how to play PacWar (gotta start somewhere) but your pbem/game testing has been a boon to the experience.
Keep the faith.
Sincerely
Kelly
PS-- Watch '1941', while completely fictional, I wouldn't put the mindset and paranoia past the westcoast during that time frame.



Hoplosternum -> RE: SRA (5/11/2004 10:06:13 AM)

I think Paternakski has a good point. The game system and historical order of battle will make Fiji, Noumea and just about any other island in the Pacific undefendable in the first few months of the war. The IJN CV deathstar fleet should stop any interference. Then you are faced with an allied position pegged back to Australia, Pearl and India waiting for late '43 before he is stong enough to counter attack. How can the allies take on a base beyond LBA range with multiple Betty squadrons and the IJN CVs possibly lurking behind before that? So you have a game where the Japanese run riot for the first few months then an interregnum of about a year where both sides sit on their hands and shuffle supplies. Then the allies win.

The exciting part of the game should be the mid-42 to mid-43 period when the allies are grabbing the initiative and beating off the IJN response. But if the Pacific has fallen and Australia is cut off how is this to occur? It won't stop a US win maybe but it doesn't sound like a lot of fun either.

If Luskan had told Raver that he was going to seize Noumea or Fiji (or both) in January at the start of the game would there have been a counter? In other words what skill has been shown here?

I know there are costs in the SRA to doing this but it seems to easy and there is no obvious counter. The ability to cut off Australia and have no active border where the allies LBA can start attriting the Japanese is just such a big prize.

Well there is always the editor [;)] and the May 42 start.



Luskan -> RE: SRA (5/11/2004 11:40:17 AM)

skill? The skill was being bold enough to divert resources to an operatino that might have run into 3 enemy cvs - 1 - just one small us inf unit would have ruined the whole thing.

More importantly, historically there was just a little cd unit at fiji. If that japs landed what I jsut did, historically they would have taken the place.

The skill comes into it when Raver rties to stop me from supplying it (and of course, he won't wait until 43 for a counter attack - he's the US for crying out loud - not new zealand!).



Hoplosternum -> RE: SRA (5/11/2004 1:27:11 PM)

I didn't mean to be disparaging to your Dandriff prong. It was certainly a bold move. But is there a counter to it? Or for you now sweeping up the entire South Pacific except New Zealand and Australia before the US even have the 1st Marines on the map? While you can take credit for having done it first won't this simply be THE tactic Japan uses every game? Why fight for the Solomans, Noumea etc in Summer 1942 when you can simply take it six months earlier against negligable opposition? Why risk an allied counter offensive from Australia when you can cut it off for a year by spreading a few brigades about in January and February?

To be able to interdict the US-Australia supply lines with Betties from Spring '42 onwards is worth far more than saving them for the slaughter to come in '44 or for the bit of bombing they can do in the SRA. You say Raver will be back. But quite frankly with what? He cannot attrite Fiji with LBA if you follow up and take surrounding islands. Nor will surface forces work. Betties out range bombardment runs in a way that the Dauntlesses and Avengers cannot. He must put his CVs in range of your LBA and out of his LBA to cover his transports. At any moment your CVs might turn up nice and fresh.... The move could close down the whole of the Pacific till mid 1943 when Raver gets his extra CVs, Hellcats and Corsairs.

If you tried this a few months later (before any Midway like losses) you might still be able to sweep the allies away. But at least you'd have to fight. There are many rules restricting the movement of the Allies early on in the war. Yet the Japanese can seemingly go anywhere and the allies have no counter at all.



sven6345789 -> RE: SRA (5/11/2004 1:40:42 PM)

first of all, nice move!!!
now, Mr. Frag pointed out that if you capture Noumea, the south pac HQ will be sitting in the middle of nowhere. Any way of getting it out?. What if it dies, does it come back? What happens to its units?
Now that Suva has been captured, any serious chance of keeping it?
is it all that important to the allied player?
How strong are the australian forces. In Pacwar, there were several divisions in Australia, making an invasion a costly experience. How about in this game. The australian and NZ Navy should be strong enough to mount a counteroffensive as long as the death stars are of near colombo or midway (consist of at least two CA's, two CL's + several DD's, as much as i know).



sven6345789 -> RE: SRA (5/11/2004 1:48:42 PM)

btw, i believe that even if the allied counteroffensive is delayed into 1943, you still have a chance to win the game!! let's remember that the counteroffensive in Guadalcanal in 08/42 became possible because of the midway debacle (from the japanese viewpoint), and even then, it was a close call and could have backfired. no midway, no counteroffensive in 1942 (Which gives the allied those CV's historically lost in 1942 equipped with Hellcats, good bye, Yamamoto).Although the japanese CV's are strong, they are not invincible. Sooner or later, the japanese will bite off more than he can chew.



DoomedMantis -> RE: SRA (5/11/2004 1:49:17 PM)

The forces at game start are as accurate as records allow us, so yes there are several divisions in Australia.

As for the HQ it will come back if destroyed.

Also you must remember that if his CV's are protecting Fiji, then they are not helping out in the SRA which is more vital in the LR



Hoplosternum -> RE: SRA (5/11/2004 2:27:05 PM)

I thought the Australian divisions are restricted to Australia though until you gather up a lot of PPs to move them (a restricted HQ??). This was to stop you rushing them into SRA and stopping the initial Japanese expansion. It also stops them being used to protect the South Pacific though.

There are costs in basing Nells and Betties in the South Pacific rather than using them against the SRA. Likewise with the IJN CVs but the prize is so great. Are you really saying that the IJN battleships and IJA air force cannot crush the Dutch and hangers on? It may take longer to finish up in the Philippines and East Indies but once you have trashed the allied air power there and taken the principle resource sites the mopping up is less important. Especially with Australia isolated so he cannot push reserves from there to hold out in Timor, Celebes or in the Philippines. The Japanese CVs do not need to be based at Fiji all the time. They can usually be much further back where they can more easily be supplied. It is their threat that stops the allies counter invading. Of course they cannot swan off on Indian Ocean adventures but I would fore go that for delaying the US counter attacks for a year.

This scenario becomes far less frightening to the allies if they can still slip transports past Fiji etc by hugging the map edge because a credible threat can then be mounted in '42 from Australia. Is this possible or will only CV protected transport convoys be getting through to Oz? Even so it appears to be a very cheap way of acquiring a very dominant position. Is there any way for the allies to stop this or are you all just hoping the Japanese won't try it?

There was a recent discussion on the replacement Essexes. But what the allies really need is some relaxation of the restrictions on them or emergency reinforcements if the Japanese move beyond the SRA in force early on. It does not need to be enough to stop this strategy cold, just enough to make this a more risky and potentially costly strategy. In real life I imagine if the US had been reduced to hiding in Pearl that they would have rushed some more troops and squadrons in.

I doubt this Japanese strategy (or any other) will stop the allies winning but my concern is that it will do away with the interesting mid 42- mid 43 period where both sides can punch and counter punch.



Luskan -> RE: SRA (5/11/2004 3:06:00 PM)

How will it do away with the interesting punch and counterpunch? Surely it makes it more interesting????

More importantly Hoplosternum, you have missed the point - I don't have TIME to let the dutch and hangers on hang around in the SRA because unless I capture those resources OIL OIL OIL my economy crashes and crumbles, I can't replace any losses after 2/42 and suddenly the game is over. That is the restriction on the game.



Luskan -> RE: SRA (5/11/2004 3:25:03 PM)

Another turn and things were quiet but tense. I took Naga, however my troops charged into Rangoon - and then got driven straight back out again. Will be waiting for reinforcements on that front.

In other news, only 120 miles between me and singapore (and of course, a few easily wiped out allied troops).



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