RE: SRA (Full Version)

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pry -> RE: SRA (5/11/2004 3:48:39 PM)

Luskan has embarked on an interesting and very risky strategy here that is in the realm of what was militarily possible for the Japanese, but there are other "Hidden" costs that will come back and bite him in the butt fairly quick unless he addresses them VERY SOON. Any conquests other than what the Japanese historically went after, while interesting "What Ifs" and great fun to see the "HOMERS" coming unglued over in the forum divert the Japanese player from his #1 goal to secure OIL and RESOURCES. He has about another 2 months (March) before he MUST start shipping oil and resources from the SRA to Japan or his industry is going to collapse on him the Japanese pre war stock pile is only so big and if that happens then Raver is going to win a decisive easy victory very early.

Now if I am playing the Allied side I WELCOME any move away from the SRA, every week the Japanese player runs "Unrestrained" elsewhere going after strategic locations means that he has not captured what he needs to keep himself going the OIL and RESOURCES in the SRA… As long as the Japanese spend their time going after these strategic locations and not the oil and resources it makes my job as the Allied player easier not harder in the long run… Everyone needs to remember that the Japanese have TWO aspects they must keep focused on the Economic and the Military, while the Allies only have to focus on the military and therefore do not have to keep the Big Picture" in mind while the Japanese player is dead if he does not.



Hoplosternum -> RE: SRA (5/11/2004 5:44:55 PM)

Well I hope you are right Luskan and Pry and that there are hidden costs. But I doubt that a move into what is essentially an empty South Pacific will stop the Japanese seizing the main Oil and Supply centres and beginning it's transportation of them. Obviously it will slow down the consolidation of that area but this is far less important because the Australian front will be quieter as it is cut off. So there will be no reinforcements for the pockets you leave till later. It is not a case of sending all the navy to Fiji and not even attacking the SRA but that certain parts of the SRA will be left to wither on the vine and be taken out later.

Luskan you need a point of friction between the Allies and Japan to punch and counter punch. If the allies cannot bring their LBA into action they need to wait a long time before they can come back. In UV unless as the allies you were well ahead CV wise you didn't start counter punching outside of your LCAP range. But at least you could bring your bombers to bare before that. That won't be an option when you're counter attacking Fiji, the Gilberts or the Marshals. You will have to be strong enough to protect everything with CVs.

We shall see. Not necessarily in this game because it may not run the distance being a Beta test game but I am sure people will try such tactics once the game is released. I think I shall drop this now because I think I am beginning to babble. I am obviously not making my point very well. It seems obvious to me that you can make progress in the SRA and send the few troops required to the South Pacific but I shall be happy to be proved wrong on this. Yes it will slow the conquest of the SRA but you can still get the important bits early. The allies cannot even move their troops from islands you have left to those with the resources on. To me getting that long water barrier between you and the US (the power that kills you) is the ultimate aim of the Japanese and is in itself a victory for the Japanese. It should be an aspiration to get this barrier. It will give you months if not a year or so of security. The Japanese should not simply be able to grab it easily early on with no possible allied counter.



TIMJOT -> RE: SRA (5/11/2004 6:00:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hoplosternum

I didn't mean to be disparaging to your Dandriff prong. It was certainly a bold move. But is there a counter to it?


I think there are several counter moves, you could always invade the Marshalls while the Japanese players have all those LBA and ships tied up adventruing deep in the SOPAC. You have ample forces in Hawaii that can be replaced quickly by forces on the west coast. Yes unhistorical but feasible if the IJN had overstretched early. It basically has the same effect that the historic USN CV raids did. Causes second guessing, knocks them off balance, disrupts scheduling, forces them to react. In other words "Hitting them where they ain't".

Another brake on such a risky move is as others have pointed out is the need to secure the SRA quickly. This is why haveing the CORRECT Allied Reinforcement OOB properly scheduled is SO IMPORTANT. Historically in early 42 there were heading toward the SRA significant force. Includeing the 2 Vetran Aussie Divisions. The 7th Div. to Sumatra, the 6th to Java; over a dozen UK fighter and bomber squadrons, 1 Tank bdg. 1/2 dozen AA Regts. The US had sent between Dec and Feb over 300 fighters, enough to out fit 1/2 dozen Provisional Squadrons in addition to the 6 Squadrons of the 35th and 49th Fighter Groups. To put it in perpective the leading echelon of the 7th Div. and 7th Arm. Bgd. reached Sumatra on Feb 13th and would have been fully deployed by the end of that month. Any delay by the Japanese player in the SRA should result in a MUCH stiffer resistance and the possibility that at least some of the Malaya Barrier holds. In short grab it while you can or your F#@KED.

Unfortunately though from what I can tell the initial historic Allied Reinforcement schedule does not appear to be accurately modeled.

Finally I think its very important that the Japan have the ability to do what Luskan is. Otherwise what allied player would bother to reinforce and secure the SOPAC ferry route if its invulnerable to attack? Afterall the need to reinforce this line was what preoccupied the USN and Army during the first few months of the war and was the major reason more resources could not be sent to the SRA in time.



pad152 -> RE: SRA (5/11/2004 6:14:19 PM)

quote:

Kicking South Pacific HQ off the base into nowhere means that none of the units attached to South Pacific can get stuff because it is out of supply rotting on a little trail! No upgrades for all those air groups


This is a great strategy, go after the HQ's, no HQ = no supply, no re-enforcements.

Questions:

1. How can you tell where the enemy HQ's are located, air recon and which HQ is which?

2. When an HQ is lost, how is it replaced, will a new South Pacifc HQ have to be shipped in from the US?



Nikademus -> RE: SRA (5/11/2004 7:53:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Quark

Bravo Luskan. I'm glad to see WiTP rewards creative thinking. It appears what you have accomplished both in China and at Suva are within historical capabilities. You are trading off a delay somewhere else to delay Raver's getting firepower into Oz. Interesting tradeoff. I'll be very interested to see how your little diversions cost you time wise in the PI and SRA.

Cheers,
Quark


Yep....gotta agree. Bananarama boy done good. I'm expecting Mogami to conduct a similar move in the future. WitP very accurately simulates the need for the "lifeline" between Oz and the US. Oz does produce it's own supply but only enough to sustain it's own forces......and those forces are'nt enough to go on the offensive with. Thus, a large portion of the Allied player's attention will be focused on the drugery of shiping hundreds of thousands of supply points (not to mention all the assets that will use them)

Any type of blocker force placed by Japan along the Canton Island, Suva, Fiji, Normura t rack will create more headaches. It wont completely isolate Oz, since the map is huge enough that Kiwi country is there....but the diversion of an already long supply line would create headaches and essentially force the Allied player to respond at the soonest convienience.

One of my first actions as Allies is usually to reinforce vital points along that route.....such actions resulted in the biggest naval skirmish that occured between myself and Pry.

(PS...yep Banana boyeee should have taken Normura)

[;)]



Raverdave -> RE: SRA (5/12/2004 1:27:57 AM)

Just to answer a few questions that have been posed regarding the allies and what and where they can do to counter punch.

FIRST off let me say that the ratbrain bananananana boy (curse his black heart) has done a good job.....a very good job. At this point in the game we are still only in Jan'42, and although Luskan is being lauded as the next best this since Alexander the Great, let me point out a few things.

1/ Singapore still stands as strong as the rock of Gibralta.

2/ The US forces in the PI are in a very very strong possition, and have so far resisted and even pushed back the Japanese. Not a bad effort for for early Jan.

3/ The first attack on Rangoon was such a disaster the the Japanese forces were forced to RETREAT out of the hex.

Just from those three points above it can be seen that the IJ has made some sacrifices in some areas to pay for it's deep thrust into the South Pacific. Also Luskan is very worried as he has yet to spot my CVs. I now have three on the loose and bollockchops has no idea where they are, where as I have a very good idea where most of his CVs are.

The force that was used to take Suva was small, something that is easly handeled but a small counter force (Hmmmm....I wonder where the 1st US Marines are?). New Brittian is very exposed and I am planning a few moves here, but I have to counter this by keeping an eye on Darwin and making sure that this is secure.



Raverdave -> RE: SRA (5/12/2004 3:03:18 AM)

I will post some maps when I get home tonight just to show what the curent situation in both the PI and the Malay Peninsula is .



brisd -> RE: SRA (5/12/2004 5:55:10 AM)

Raverdave - totally agree. The South Pacific WAS almost undefended at this stage of the war and if the Japanese were willing to send a force to Fiji or New Caledonia, they probably could have taken it. Now trying to hold it with such a long supply line? Anyways I think isolating Oz is the ONLY winning strategy for Japan - it narrows the front to a few islands instead of the dozens of bases in the Solomans and New Guinea, were attrition will quickly eat them alive. Japan had plans to capture Fiji.

Bravo Luskan once again - I was not impressed with your earlier strategy of dividing your effort so widely but so far it has paid off. This is a beta AAR but the game looks great so far despite what others say (who are on my ignore list as I tired of their insults to other posters and general complaints). [8|]



Raverdave -> RE: SRA (5/12/2004 6:40:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: brisd

Raverdave - totally agree. The South Pacific WAS almost undefended at this stage of the war and if the Japanese were willing to send a force to Fiji or New Caledonia, they probably could have taken it. Now trying to hold it with such a long supply line? Anyways I think isolating Oz is the ONLY winning strategy for Japan - it narrows the front to a few islands instead of the dozens of bases in the Solomans and New Guinea, were attrition will quickly eat them alive. Japan had plans to capture Fiji.

Bravo Luskan once again - I was not impressed with your earlier strategy of dividing your effort so widely but so far it has paid off. This is a beta AAR but the game looks great so far despite what others say (who are on my ignore list as I tired of their insults to other posters and general complaints). [8|]


A good Japanese strategy would be to rush PNG and New Brittin at the expense of a quick victory in either Malaya or the PI. The North coast of Australia is nice and exposed also, and as the IJN you could not discount taking Darwin. For all the trouble it is worth to do so, it is ten times worse for the allies as they HAVE to retake it if they wish to launch an offensive into Java and the whole of the DEI in '43/'44. And it is a long long way to sail an invasion TF if you are trying to take back Darwin.

Luskan's current prong into the south pacific is nothing but a pin-pr1ck simply designed to try and get me to divert resources from other areas. There is no way that he can support this outpost effectively and he knows it. But having said that it was a brilliant move.



Luskan -> RE: SRA (5/12/2004 7:54:38 AM)

Well - Raver probably knows what I'm going to do next (he has to know - everyone esle does!). Malaya is on its way to falling, and so is Rangoon (sono as possible so i acn replace 1 big division with a bunch of small units that can build some big forts!) but the PI has been progressing so slowly that it may be march before I have manila, and amy or june before I even get to bataan.

There are literally hundreds of little bases I should be scooping up - I just don't have the ships and men available to do so (not and keep a few in reserve for trouble spots). Suva was a gamble and has sort of paid off. Doomed already knew from my game with him that the next part of the strategy is to wait for his cvs to come after the transports there and pound them with betties and zeroes (I surprised him when he raided kwajalein by having 40+ betties and 27 zeros there - he only attacked with 1 cv and it cost him that cv).

I'm trying to force Raver's cvs into the fray somewhere. I would prefer to deal with them now than have to deal with them when I'm trying to steal 50+ bases along northern new guinea and the solomons in 5 months (especially since they'll have had some AA upgrades by then if Raver is smart).



mogami -> South Pacific Bums Rush (5/12/2004 7:57:13 AM)

Hi, In my early tests I always went as far as I could on turn 1. (I captured Luganville on turn 2 ) Then I began to discover that just taking a base was useless if it could not be supplied and defended. The airgroups and ships and material are required in the SRA early on. The units to expand into the South Pacific have to come out of the SRA.

The Allies have 3 div they can use early (if they get enough transport)(It is impossable for Japan to have 3 div in Suva before Allies move their 3 div there)

I seem to recall the Battle of Midway was almost exactly 6 months after Pearl Harbor was attacked.

My current plans all revolve around getting the SRA finished early. I don't really wish to capture empty bases. (I want the Allies to send material to bases but not so much I can't kill it when I arrive.) If I capture an empty base within 10 days sail of PH I'll need most of the IJN to protect it. I have a lot of fuel but little of it is down south. CV and BB suck up large amounts of fuel.

Now I think it is best to wait and find a base the Allies try to protect and force a battle of over whelming strength on them. Killing allied combat ability is better then sitting on isolated out of supply bases.

I bet the Allies have Suva back inside 45 turns



bradfordkay -> RE: South Pacific Bums Rush (5/12/2004 8:34:20 AM)

I think that Luskan made an interesting move, not at all out of the realm of possibility. I agree that it appears to be tough to support a move that far that early. One of the reasons for taking territory in steps is to get the supplies and support forces into position to support the next move. If the Japanese player just rushes about and grabs every long distance hotspot available, he will end up with some very long supply TF trips. Now if he grabs the intermediary islands between Fiji and Kwajelein and sets up bases on those, he might turn the whole area into a nasty little campaign. As a Japanese player, I would rather fight from the mid-ocean atolls than in the close quarters of the Solomons. Take the fight out of the reach of early war USAAF fighters.

Losing Noumea or Fiji will not cut off the Kiwis and Aussies. There is an awful lot of ocean that allows for very long reroutes of the convoys. It will just slow down the buildup, that's all.



mogami -> RE: South Pacific Bums Rush (5/12/2004 8:58:34 AM)

Hi, It's better to let the allies move the supply and build the airfields and then capture the bases. Stage up material on Kwajalean. Meanwhile occupy Rabaul and Shortlands. Recon from Shortlands and stockpile Rabaul. Take Gili and the north coast of New Guinea and then Port Moresby (airfield there already built)
Now you should be about finished in SRA and Allies should have made Noumea worth taking.
Soon a big battle will be fought and Japan will win because they can bring more toys to the fight and rather then being a knee jerk reaction the operation will have been in planning and preparation for a few months. (those prep points really help during landings and combat)



bradfordkay -> RE: South Pacific Bums Rush (5/12/2004 9:21:30 AM)

quote:

(those prep points really help during landings and combat)


Are you talking about a specific game mechanism (Prep Points), or do you mean that taking the time to prepare an offensive is the better idea. I will certainly agree with the latter, my earlier comment is based on my dislike of getting involved in the Solomons/New Guinea area. I intend to try a move (in one game at least) as the Japanese against the atolls north and east of the solomons and stay out of the Solomons area entirely, so as to severely limit the value of allied land based air. Maybe a well-prepared offensive in this area might bear fruit. Then again, maybe not...



fabertong -> RE: South Pacific Bums Rush (5/12/2004 9:29:38 AM)

I'm taking notes....



DoomedMantis -> RE: SRA (5/12/2004 9:39:25 AM)

Actually there were two, and they were running from your KB CV's that were a little late in protecting your transports at Wake (which i had a field day with). Its just a pity the direction I chose to run in was not as safe as I thought it was.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Luskan

Well - Raver probably knows what I'm going to do next (he has to know - everyone esle does!). Malaya is on its way to falling, and so is Rangoon (sono as possible so i acn replace 1 big division with a bunch of small units that can build some big forts!) but the PI has been progressing so slowly that it may be march before I have manila, and amy or june before I even get to bataan.

There are literally hundreds of little bases I should be scooping up - I just don't have the ships and men available to do so (not and keep a few in reserve for trouble spots). Suva was a gamble and has sort of paid off. Doomed already knew from my game with him that the next part of the strategy is to wait for his cvs to come after the transports there and pound them with betties and zeroes (I surprised him when he raided kwajalein by having 40+ betties and 27 zeros there - he only attacked with 1 cv and it cost him that cv).

I'm trying to force Raver's cvs into the fray somewhere. I would prefer to deal with them now than have to deal with them when I'm trying to steal 50+ bases along northern new guinea and the solomons in 5 months (especially since they'll have had some AA upgrades by then if Raver is smart).



fabertong -> RE: SRA (5/12/2004 9:47:40 AM)

Screenshots, yes please....



Raverdave -> RE: SRA (5/12/2004 3:41:10 PM)

Ok here is the situation in the PI.....I have just only last turn lost Naga, and my troops are retreating to Manila. Else where I am holding my own and have been rather well for sometime now. The Japanese troops in the Clark hex suffered over 350 killed in a pre-registered artillary barrage which gave me some satisfaction.....must have also done wonders for their disruption and moral levels[:D]. The problem for the IJN player is that if you stuff-up just one part of the invasion of the PI then you can pretty much forget taking the place until Feb or March '42.

[image]local://upfiles/5619/Db841705305.jpg[/image]



Raverdave -> RE: SRA (5/12/2004 4:00:17 PM)

I would like to think that I can hold onto Singapore until the historical date of Feb 15th '42, but as you can see from the map, things are rather glum. Those troops in the hex to the north of Johore Bharu are what remains of the 6th, 12th, 15th and 22nd Indian Brigades and a mixture of base support units, fleeing head long towrds Johore itself, and hot on their tails are some 40,000plus Japanese troops flush with victory.

I have reinforced Johore with two Aussie Brigades in the hope of slowing the Japanese advance, and even giving them a bit of a bloody nose, but from past experiance this is just wishful thinking on my part.

[image]local://upfiles/5619/Wu616128522.jpg[/image]



fabertong -> RE: SRA (5/12/2004 4:04:06 PM)

Thanks for the screenshots [&o]



fabertong -> RE: SRA (5/12/2004 4:13:53 PM)

Raverdave,
It looks as though some of your troops in Malaya have been pushed into a mountain hex.
Is there any way out for them or are they b*ggered.......



Nikademus -> RE: South Pacific Bums Rush (5/12/2004 5:56:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, It's better to let the allies move the supply and build the airfields and then capture the bases. Stage up material on Kwajalean. Meanwhile occupy Rabaul and Shortlands. Recon from Shortlands and stockpile Rabaul. Take Gili and the north coast of New Guinea and then Port Moresby (airfield there already built)
Now you should be about finished in SRA and Allies should have made Noumea worth taking.


(scribble scribble scribble scribble)

Better than ULTRA!!! [sm=00000436.gif]



sven6345789 -> RE: South Pacific Bums Rush (5/12/2004 7:04:07 PM)

although Mogami's tactic is good, i just wonder in what shape KB comes out of it if the allies make a serious stand with all the CV's they got. they will probably loose 3-4 of them, but the japanese CV's probably don't look that good either. The allies get plenty of them, but for the japanese, the damaged CV's will come back at a time where the advantage in numbers and experience so helpful in the first operations has been greatly diminished.
lets say a carrier take 40 system damage and you manage to get it home. about how long does it take for it to come back?



Nikademus -> RE: South Pacific Bums Rush (5/12/2004 7:29:46 PM)

Luck will be a large factor along with timing. I managed, ironically through a big "mistiming" (ala "midway") to stage a 4 vs 4 CV battle with KB in feb 42 against Pry and walked (well "limped") away having lost 1 CV and two damaged in return for 2 badly banged up KB carriers + moderate damage to 1 more. Actually i would have walked away with only damage myself save for the unfortunate occurance that next turn, some Nells came along and torpedoed my carrier!

end result was a draw, but any draw is a strategic victory for the Allies [;)]



Ron Saueracker -> RE: South Pacific Bums Rush (5/12/2004 9:19:46 PM)

Don't ya just love all the variables! Love this game so far.



Capt. Harlock -> RE: South Pacific Bums Rush (5/12/2004 10:40:03 PM)

Those screenshots raise an interesting possibility. Could Raver evacuate any troops from the PI? there appears to still be a channel of Allied-controlled ocean. For that matter, maybe some reinforcements could arrive. How is the air-to-air combat doing in that sector?



Nikademus -> RE: South Pacific Bums Rush (5/12/2004 10:49:04 PM)

only if he spends the PP's for it....and then he has to run the gauntlet of LBA (assuming Banarama boy has blocker forces in place)



Andy Mac -> RE: South Pacific Bums Rush (5/12/2004 11:20:08 PM)

OK if reinforcing phillipines is going to be risky how much would a Japanese PBEM player have to mess up to allow an Allied player to hold onto

1. Singapore

or

2. Rangoon

Beyond historic fall dates and if so how dislocating will it be to the Japanese Economy.

i.e. can you evacuate Aussie 9th to Rangoon will that allow Rangoon to hold until 7th Armoured turns up ?

and if Allied player can make Rangoon a tough pill to swallow is it practical as IJA to bypass it.

<Apologies if been asked before new to forum> :)



Joel Billings -> RE: South Pacific Bums Rush (5/12/2004 11:39:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sven6345789

although Mogami's tactic is good, i just wonder in what shape KB comes out of it if the allies make a serious stand with all the CV's they got. they will probably loose 3-4 of them, but the japanese CV's probably don't look that good either. The allies get plenty of them, but for the japanese, the damaged CV's will come back at a time where the advantage in numbers and experience so helpful in the first operations has been greatly diminished.
lets say a carrier take 40 system damage and you manage to get it home. about how long does it take for it to come back?


For a 100 durability ship it will take 40-80 days per 10% damage at a size 10 port (depending on shipyard availability, repair ships, HQ's etc.). For a 60 durability ship it would take 25-50 days per 10%. So the Shokaku at 50% damage would take about 10 months to fully fix, while the Soryu would take around 6 months.



Nikademus -> RE: South Pacific Bums Rush (5/12/2004 11:53:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

OK if reinforcing phillipines is going to be risky how much would a Japanese PBEM player have to mess up to allow an Allied player to hold onto

1. Singapore

or

2. Rangoon

Beyond historic fall dates and if so how dislocating will it be to the Japanese Economy.

i.e. can you evacuate Aussie 9th to Rangoon will that allow Rangoon to hold until 7th Armoured turns up ?

and if Allied player can make Rangoon a tough pill to swallow is it practical as IJA to bypass it.

<Apologies if been asked before new to forum> :)


Attempting to evacuate Malayan by ship (which is the only way to do it unless the Japan player gets cute on turn 1 deployment) is risky but possible. However the more troopage you take from Singapore the faster it falls.

I've yet to really attempt to make a stand at Rangoon yet....the geography makes it a potentially lethal trap for any LCU's there and besides which the IJA is just too damn strong. I usually declare it an open city (well in melodramatic terms) and attempt to establish a defence line farther into central burma where i've had more success though there as well, eventually the IJA triumphs either through bulldogging or flanking maneuvers.



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