Who is going to play the game after 43??? (Full Version)

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shoevarek -> Who is going to play the game after 43??? (5/2/2004 1:39:20 AM)

It is mid 1943. I send task force to destroy US invasion force near Vella Lavella. The effects:

CA Wichita 35 hits (few 8 inches), 2 torp hits, on fire, heavy damage
CA Shropshire 28 hits, 5 torp hits, is sunk
LC Boise is sunk.

There were two engagements. First ended in Shropshire beeing sunk. In second, after Boise sunk, heavy damaged and burning Wichita made ground meat from 4 of my heavy cruisers (on after another - if i had 20 of them she would still damaged all). My ships were just sitting like ducks and coudn't hit the burning wreck. I loaded the turn as US and it turned out that Wichita is in great shape (few points of sys damage) and Shropshire miraculously resurrected (few points of sys damage and few guns destroyed). I was surprised Boise beeing really sunk.

So what happened? What i was shooting at? My TF was shooting with rock or what?

Why i posted this in WiTP forum?
It is only mid 43 but the only option now (as i see it) is to give up the game. I can't do anything. My planes drop from the sky like rocks - training missions are too much for my 50 over exp pilots. Any missions ends with many planes destroyed while landing (not by flak or enemy planes) - so i almost don't use them. Navy guys forgot how to shoot - they can't notice burning wreck on the sea (if they have 90 night fight exp points or not doesn't matter). Even when I think i have advantage i loose terribly - i saw 4 BB taskforce (some CA and DD) beeing crushed by 2 CA US super armada armed with pin point accuracy radar. My CV force looks good on paper but the only thing it is good for is to attack few unprotected AKs (few DDs can make a great massakre to my planes). AI knows everything - how many planes i have set on CAP, how many planes i send on navy attack. My subordinates are complete idiots. They send planes in all directions but not the one i want them to. They brake joined TF just because they want to be first to see death and so on...
The only thing i do is managing transports - great fun. I can't plan any operations because anyway AI at some point srews things up and this ends in quick previous turn load.

This is only UV. WiTP is much larger - read more AI screw ups, much more training accidents etc. I can't see many players really going to the end (maybe masochists). Is it possible to mantain japanese pilots exp in the 70-80s (i know we will have no real control over japan training system)? What they count for when fighting against similiar US pilots? It is probably to late to ask for more control over most important things. I can set planes altitude but not their target - so we specify how to achieve the goal that is not specified - isn't this amaizing?.



Mr.Frag -> RE: Who is going to play the game after 43??? (5/2/2004 2:08:40 AM)

Actually, UV and WitP are very distant cousins now. The mechanics are similar but the play of the game is pretty much completely different.

'41 is just depressing for the Allies.

'42 is depressing for the Allies but they get to take shots at the advancing storm to feel better about it. Getting over-agressive as the Allies will cause problems later as the goods here are needed to establish a security net around Japan's expansion for the drive back in '43+.

'43 will probably be the most exciting time for the game, as Japan will be at their peak of expansion and the Allies will be fighting back, trying to reverse the flow of the war.

'44 is about Japan digging in and holding, losses will be extreme.

'45 is all about Allied revenge for the first couple of years of the war.

A win vs a loss is simply put: Japan has not surrendered before the historical date the war ended.



shoevarek -> RE: Who is going to play the game after 43??? (5/2/2004 2:48:33 AM)

Hi Frag
I just started late scenario in UV - that is why i am so irritated. I know it is a completely different story from playing entire war scenario. But lets say if you have war luck and if you preserve your air force, are you able to put a fight after 43? Or maybe it doesn't matter - no matter what you do, after 43 your ships and planes are useless. You can just sit and look at opponent jumping from island to island.
I remember someone saying it is possible to set air unit not to get replacements - thanks god, it will help keeping some units in shape. Is it possible to make technology decissions - speed up upgrades like AA or radars? Also, are the death accidents so often as in UV?



Mr.Frag -> RE: Who is going to play the game after 43??? (5/2/2004 3:17:51 AM)

The historical situation sucks if you happen to play Japan in a late war scenario because you are stuck with all the mistakes that were made to get you to that point. You miss out the chance to do better.

Air power does not take bases, grunts on ships landing under air power takes bases. The late war game is about taking bases back from Japan that are highly fortified and extremely well manned. Air power simply means the Allied ships will not get hammered on the way to the target, it does not change the fact that once there, you have to fight to get the base.

There are over 200 bases in the game that are likely to change hands during the course of the game. UV pretty much resolves around one little neck of the woods with 10 bases at play that matter.

You control your pilot/aircraft replacements and your training to a certain extent BUT not in a late war scenario, as you have already given up multiple years worth of training time.

By leaving low skill pilots and their aircraft grounded back in Japan for a year, you will get them up to the 60% level without loosing a single plane. In UV, you simply did not have the time allowed to do this.



bradfordkay -> RE: Who is going to play the game after 43??? (5/2/2004 5:04:58 AM)

I see only two uses for the late war scenarios, and as such am personally quite happy that they exist.

1. So that playtesters have an actual chance to test late war equipment for bugs, inaccuracies, etc.

2. To allow an occaisional, solo player the chance to enjoy some Allied a**-whupping on the Japanese after seeing the early war campaigns. After all, we are all probably going to start off a Dec 7 '41 scenario right from the start, n'est-ce pas?



sven6345789 -> RE: Who is going to play the game after 43??? (5/2/2004 6:34:03 AM)

yup!!



brisd -> RE: Who is going to play the game after 43??? (5/2/2004 7:50:41 AM)

Personally, I look forward to playing the hopeless late game scenarios as Japan as a challenge against what I expect to be weak computer player. I used to fire up GG's War In Russia and play the '44 scenario as the Germans and see how long I could keep the Russians out of western Europe. I managed to kill ALOT of Soviets. I expect to kill lots of allied troops and planes (while losing immense numbers of my own too). That is what some of you guys don't seem to get - the challenge of playing strategic defense can be as much or more fun that moving overwelming numbers all over the map. The long full game is #1 for me of course.



pasternakski -> RE: Who is going to play the game after 43??? (5/2/2004 7:03:12 PM)

What you said, brisd.

The full war campaign is likely the only one I will ever play. If I am the Japanese player, I will play the whole thing, both because I want to see how well my early war strategy holds up when the Allies make their comeback and because I will want to see how I can do against my PBEM opponent's counteroffensives.

As far as I'm concerned, you make something of an ethical commitment to play the whole game when you agree to PBEM. I never surrender, and expect my opponent to do the same, I have been in games where the situation is so hopeless for one side or the other that we have ended the game by mutual agreement - but only by mutual agreement.



j campbell -> RE: Who is going to play the game after 43??? (5/2/2004 11:52:40 PM)

As far as I'm concerned, you make something of an ethical commitment to play the whole game when you agree to PBEM. I never surrender, and expect my opponent to do the same, I have been in games where the situation is so hopeless for one side or the other that we have ended the game by mutual agreement - but only by mutual agreement


I agree primarily in concept-I think ultimately it is up to the japanese player to decide when its over-he is after all the one on the losing side in the end (militarily speaking of course). I never quit a PBEM game as long as there is hope-looking over the 1945 AAR between Mogami and Frag has convinced me that continuing the campaign into 1945 is a fruitless endeavor-too much pride on the Japanese side of things and not enough common sense from the Americans to know when their insatiable appetite for destruction should be quenched-i think it high time for both sides to do some serious negotiating-at this point in time the japanese were more than willing to a cease in hostilities.

Personally i cannot see the satisfaction in dropping A-bombs or firebombs which is why if i ever play the allied side i would stick to military targets.

I plan on playing the full on campaing but not necessarily to the conquest of Honshu-this IJHQ commander knows when he is defeated.



Mike Scholl -> RE: Who is going to play the game after 43??? (5/3/2004 1:45:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski
As far as I'm concerned, you make something of an ethical commitment to play the whole game when you agree to PBEM. I never surrender, and expect my opponent to do the same, I have been in games where the situation is so hopeless for one side or the other that we have ended the game by mutual agreement - but only by mutual agreement.


You NAILED it here. I've played with folks who just want to do the "Japanese Expansion"
over and over. My thinking is that if you want an Allied player to experiance 1941-42,
then you should both experiance 1944-45 as well. A "mutual aggreement" (preferably
arrived at in a long evening "bull session" with much liquid consumed) is certainly a
viable alternative if things are getting completely one-sided. But to play with a Brady
or a Damien, who've both made it pretty plain they think anything after early 1943 is
a waste of time, who needs it?



sven6345789 -> RE: Who is going to play the game after 43??? (5/3/2004 1:58:25 AM)

There are always situations were it starts to look hopeless. I normally ask my opponent for a short while to rethink my strategy (lets say 3-7 Days). After a short period, the initial shock is gone and common sense starts to set in again.



pasternakski -> RE: Who is going to play the game after 43??? (5/3/2004 2:12:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: j campbell

Personally i cannot see the satisfaction in dropping A-bombs or firebombs which is why if i ever play the allied side i would stick to military targets.


Then I will play the Japanese against you and beat you against the victory conditions. I revel in the idea that you would refrain from using atomic weapons or firebombs against us. I will throw hara-kiri into your cursed Yankee ships until you no longer dare to let them sail. Come invade Honshu. We will annihilate you.

Banzai! Honaa!



Mike Wood -> RE: Who is going to play the game after 43??? (5/3/2004 3:15:50 AM)

Hello...

When I used to play PacWar, my opponents all wanted to play Japanese. They would smack me around for 9 or 10 months of game time and when I started getting P-38 Lightnings and B-24 Liberators, they would quit.

I Never Liked That...

Michael Wood



DoomedMantis -> RE: Who is going to play the game after 43??? (5/3/2004 3:33:49 AM)

One good thing about playing UV, is that it gives you a fair idea about which opponents you want to play in WitP. I must have started about 30 odd games and had at least 15 drop outs early, yet also some players that have stuck it to a mutually agreeable end. Also I think no situation is trully desparate, but deception can make for a killing blow.



norsemanjs -> RE: Who is going to play the game after 43??? (5/3/2004 4:12:52 AM)

Just as the allied player early in the war must look carefully for oportunities to hurt the Japanese and make it as painful as possible to advance. The Japanese must do the same from 44 onward.

The Japanese, if played well early in the game, may have a very strong defensive position, with interior lines of communication and supply. Also the Japanese have some dangerous units still available to them. Do not underestimate the kamikaze's and the difficulty of taking some of the very heavily fortified Japanese positions. And if the B-29's can be kept out of range long enough the road to Tokyo could be a long one. Japan will loose, it is inevitable, but how long and at what cost? You have to play thru to 44 and 45 to truly find out.

I can hardly wait to try!



fabertong -> RE: Who is going to play the game after 43??? (5/3/2004 11:58:01 AM)

There is, for me, greater satisfaction in doing well from a losing situation, than from a winning one. That is the real challange.



Mike Scholl -> RE: Who is going to play the game after 43??? (5/3/2004 5:20:04 PM)

The title of this thread pretty much said it all. "Who;s going to play the game after
1943?" Words that could only be written by a "Japanese 'fan-boy' gamer" Obviously
people interested in the history of the War in the Pacific will want to look at ALL of
it, not just a portion.Serious game players will want to know what the consequenses
of their choices in 1942-42 will be as the war plays out.Only the people who can't get
the fact that "the Japanese could WIN in Pacific War" (fun game..., lousy simulation)
will keep playing the first 18 months over and over looking for a "magic bullet".



Damien Thorn -> RE: Who is going to play the game after 43??? (5/3/2004 5:47:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

The title of this thread pretty much said it all. "Who;s going to play the game after
1943?" Words that could only be written by a "Japanese 'fan-boy' gamer"


Your derisive comments aside, it is perfectly acceptable to admire the effort put forth by the Japanese military in World War 2. If you want to say fanboy then it is no different than you being an allied fanboy. When you realized that just 70 years before World War 2 Japan was still in the middle ages it makes their accomplishments even more impressive. They still remain the only non-white country every to rise to be a world power (although China may be next if the US doesn’t do something about the trade imbalance).


quote:


Obviously people interested in the history of the War in the Pacific will want to look at ALL of it, not just a portion.


Actually, people interested in real history will read a real history book. A game is a game and history is history.

quote:


Serious game players will want to know what the consequenses of their choices in 1942-42 will be as the war plays out.Only the people who can't get the fact that "the Japanese could WIN in Pacific War" (fun game..., lousy simulation) will keep playing the first 18 months over and over looking for a "magic bullet".


The axis powers COULD HAVE won WW2 make no mistake about it. Now that it is over and people look back they tend to think it couldn't have ended differently but they are wrong. Germany was close to winning and, if not for some dumb mistakes at the top, they could haev won. Japan may not have been able to invade the US but they could have reached a negotiated peace if things had gone differently. Then, after a few decades of cotroling the extra resources in China and southeast Asia who knows. Today Japan is already the #2 economy in the world. Imagine how much more they could have done with actual resources.

But all of that is conjecture. In WitP I doubt they will get the 3-1 ratio needed to win.



mogami -> RE: Who is going to play the game after 43??? (5/3/2004 6:01:59 PM)

quote:

They still remain the only non-white country every to rise to be a world power


Carthage, Egypt, Mongols, Parthians, Ottomans, Persians, Moors, just to name a few. (there is a lot of history in the east before Europe comes out of stone age.)



j campbell -> RE: Who is going to play the game after 43??? (5/3/2004 6:11:20 PM)

Mogami,

i think he means in the colonial period. it is true-the japanese were the only asian country not to become a colony of the europeans-that is why they invoked so much opposition to their expansion when it came (they started too late).



Mr.Frag -> RE: Who is going to play the game after 43??? (5/3/2004 6:11:42 PM)

Most of you seem to be looking at this wrong.

It is not about winning the war, it is about stalling the loss of the war until after the historical date. To do this, you must play as good a land grab as possible. You must cause as much loss as possible while keeping your forces as intact as possible so when the tide is reversed, it will take *time* to come back in.

Any Japanese player who can hold back the Allies until the B-29's show up overhead in 860 days has done well. Once they show up, the context of the game changes completely. It is no longer about holding off the Allies, it is about weathering the storm well.

Denial of basing for the B-29 (with it's 20,000 lb payload) is the goal of the game from this point onwards until the game ends.

Denial of basing for the B-24 (with it's 8,000 lb payload) is the goal of the game prior to that point.

Due to rule changes that some of you will love and others will hate, LBA air base sizes are now based on bomb load. The size 4 airfield is a thing of the past. If you don't need it as Japan which you probably will not, don't build it up for the Allies.



madflava13 -> RE: Who is going to play the game after 43??? (5/3/2004 6:23:16 PM)

Airfield basing rules have changed? Pray tell kind sir...



Damien Thorn -> RE: Who is going to play the game after 43??? (5/3/2004 6:28:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Carthage, Egypt, Mongols, Parthians, Ottomans, Persians, Moors, just to name a few. (there is a lot of history in the east before Europe comes out of stone age.)


Yes, I was talking about from the colonial period on. I'm aware there were many great civilizations back when most of Eurpoeans lived in huts.



Mr.Frag -> RE: Who is going to play the game after 43??? (5/3/2004 6:44:53 PM)

quote:

Airfield basing rules have changed? Pray tell kind sir...


Air base size is related to bomb load now. This means the big boys need a bigger base.

Unless you love operational losses, you'll be picking your bases well for the heavies.



tsimmonds -> RE: Who is going to play the game after 43??? (5/3/2004 7:04:38 PM)

quote:

Original: Damien Thorn

A game is a game and history is history.

A well-made game simulating an historical situation is certainly capable of being more than just a game. It is another way to study history.

quote:

Germany was close to winning and, if not for some dumb mistakes at the top, they could haev won.

The dumbest of their dumb mistakes was going to war simultaneously against the three most powerful nations on earth. The only possible way I can see they could have won would have been to take them on one at a time. I don't think in the event the Germans were ever actually close to winning. They certainly were making their opponents suffer and struggle, but would any of them ever have surrendered? I doubt it. This was total war; only total victory would suffice, and Germany could never achieve total victory over any of those countries while they were allied together....

quote:

Japan may not have been able to invade the US but they could have reached a negotiated peace if things had gone differently.

Only if it had never undertaken the attack on Pearl Harbor could Japan ever have hoped to negotiate a settlement of the Pacific War.



pasternakski -> RE: Who is going to play the game after 43??? (5/3/2004 7:33:11 PM)

Thanks, Zippy! Good analysis.

It's really not sufficient to string together conclusory statement after conclusory statement about "coulda, woulda, shoulda."

As far as Germany winning WWII in Europe, the Soviets had absorbed the entire offensive punch of the Wehrmacht by late 1943. On the Western Front, no one I know of has demonstrated that Sealion was ever destined for a decent chance of success under any circumstances, and the Germans had gone over to the strategic defensive by mid-1942. Italy's days were numbered from the very outset. Then, there is the problem presented by the emergence of the economic juggernaut on the other side of the Atlantic.

I just don't see how "the Japanese could have gotten a negotiated settlement" makes any sense. The anti-Japanese sentiment among the American public was absolutely virulent after Pearl Harbor, Bataan, and other sad disasters born of lack of preparedness.

Both of these powers might have done better than historically, but the eventual outcome is not in doubt. It would have taken an invasion and conquest of the United States in order for the Japanese to have prevailed - something that just wasn't in the cards. Germany might have managed some sort of stalemate, but their leadership would likely have prevented any settlement, and the tide had turned before such a possibility even presented itself for consideration by the Axis side.

So let's play these simulations as presented and leave the fantasy to designers who want to dabble in the "what ifs" of alternate reality. We engage in this to a degree, of course, when we play wargames, but the game itself, if it intends to be a "historical simulation," presents circumstances that were actually faced (or that could reasonably have been faced) by the combatants involved.



Mr.Frag -> RE: Who is going to play the game after 43??? (5/3/2004 7:43:18 PM)

I'm curious.

If Japan had completely left the Brits and Americans alone and simply sent a single group to Palembang to grab the largest batch of oil fields then simply stopped and did nothing else ...

Do you think the USA & Brits would have done anything about it? We all know there is little the Dutch could do by themselves. Japan could have handed the Dutch a rather large cheque for damages done, and simply placed the entire blame for their actions against the big boys who were boycotting her into starvation, forcing her into a war she did not want.



mogami -> RE: Who is going to play the game after 43??? (5/3/2004 7:45:48 PM)

Hi, Japan had been told straight out that any further adventures and they would be at war. Included in the "protected" status were the Dutch. Their response was Pearl Harbor.



Mr.Frag -> RE: Who is going to play the game after 43??? (5/3/2004 7:55:11 PM)

I understand, the question is would they have actually done it or simple rattled around and accepted it had Japan presented it as "you left us no choice".

It is a lot tougher to convince the general public when the Allies are portrayed as the "bad guys" forcing the war. I am sure that a good 80+ percent of the people reading this think Japan started the war. They did not, they were forced into a desparate war that they could never win by grandstanding plays of the Allies, cutting off their country from the rest of the world.

Without PH as an opening act, it becomes a lot tougher to justify what happened. The Allies used this as an excuse to justify their actions when in reality they caused it themselves.



mogami -> RE: Who is going to play the game after 43??? (5/3/2004 7:59:55 PM)

Hi, Japan was not forced into the war by the western powers. Japan was lead to war by her military. The Japanese Army started the war in 1931. There followed 10 years of the west trying to get Japan to halt aggression. Finally Japan lost it's collective mind and went to war because they would not mend their ways. Japan had bombed US ships without the US going to war but the US laid it on the line "Stop or else" Japan decided on "Or else" but they were not forced into it. There existed no Western threat to Japanese security.



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