Kamakazi Units (Full Version)

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Scott_USN -> Kamakazi Units (6/3/2004 7:38:06 PM)

I have not heard much on these units. I am sure they are in the game, will they follow the same basic rules as PACWAR?

Also will there be any mini subs and such using these umm tactics.



Nikademus -> RE: Kamakazi Units (6/3/2004 8:00:23 PM)

Kamakaze's will preform much like the regular bombers i.e. if there's a CAP, they must first battle through that and then they will make runs on their targets, only with the obvious difference that instead of releasing their load and flying away, it's special delivery.

Midget subs are not in the game (officially)



Scott_USN -> RE: Kamakazi Units (6/3/2004 8:06:01 PM)

Nikademus thanks, yeah I am not too worried about the subs. Do you know if it is late 43 or 44 when they are allowed? Or will it depend on how well or bad the Japanese are doing?



Nikademus -> RE: Kamakazi Units (6/3/2004 8:23:01 PM)

There' s both a date trigger and an 'event' trigger though the date trigger has priority

The date is somewhere in mid 44 i believe, the event trigger is the Allied player has to be within a certain (close) distance to Japan (i.e. he needs to be clearly "winning") in order for Kamakaze units to be selected by Japan player.

However no K' units can be created PERIOD before the date trigger passes.



jhdeerslayer -> RE: Kamakazi Units (6/3/2004 8:33:35 PM)

Good! This is one of my favorite drinks. [:D][:D][:D]



Apollo11 -> RE: Kamakazi Units (6/3/2004 9:42:56 PM)

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Kamakaze's will preform much like the regular bombers i.e. if there's a CAP, they must first battle through that and then they will make runs on their targets, only with the obvious difference that instead of releasing their load and flying away, it's special delivery.

Midget subs are not in the game (officially)


Just small addition if I may... [;)]


It's KAMIKAZE and not KAMAKAZI.

ka-mi-ka-ze (kä mi kä'zee) n. pl. <-zes> adj.
n.
1. (during World War II) a member of a
special corps in the Japanese air force
charged with suicidal missions against
U.S. warships.
2. an airplane filled with explosives and
flown by a kamikaze.
adj.
3. of or resembling a kamikaze; wildly
reckless; suicidal.
[1944-45; < Japn, = kami (y) (see KAMI) + kaze
wind (in reference to a storm that destroyed a
Mongol fleet invading Japan in 1281)]


Leo "Apollo11"



Scott_USN -> RE: Kamakazi Units (6/3/2004 9:59:22 PM)

Sorry I must have missed my Japanese class... If I am not mistaken the actual translation means Divine Wind. Not airplane with explosives in it... Since we are being precise and all.



Apollo11 -> RE: Kamakazi Units (6/3/2004 10:30:53 PM)

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_USN

Sorry I must have missed my Japanese class... If I am not mistaken the actual translation means Divine Wind. Not airplane with explosives in it... Since we are being precise and all.


If you read the Webster's description I gave above you will see reference to wind that crushed Mongol fleet (at the bottom).


Leo "Apollo11"



ShakyJake -> RE: Kamakazi Units (6/3/2004 11:20:48 PM)

If dive bombers eat flak at 1000 feet, and torpedo bombers take flak at 500 feet, what range will kamikaze attacks take flak at? I would imagine that flak would be much more devastating for these pilots, flying into the very muzzles of the enemy guns as they were...



rogueusmc -> RE: Kamakazi Units (6/4/2004 12:08:22 AM)

Interesting question......[&:]



Mr.Frag -> RE: Kamakazi Units (6/4/2004 12:11:52 AM)

quote:

If dive bombers eat flak at 1000 feet, and torpedo bombers take flak at 500 feet, what range will kamikaze attacks take flak at? I would imagine that flak would be much more devastating for these pilots, flying into the very muzzles of the enemy guns as they were...


Yea, *but* a flaming wreak hitting you is just as effective ...

Not only does the flak have to kill the plane, it has to completely shred it to it doesn't make it to the ship. It is not as simple as you would think. Shooting it down is not a solution. One has to completely destroy it so it falls out of the sky *before* hitting the ship.



dwesolick -> RE: Kamakazi Units (6/4/2004 12:49:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShakyJake

If dive bombers eat flak at 1000 feet, and torpedo bombers take flak at 500 feet, what range will kamikaze attacks take flak at? I would imagine that flak would be much more devastating for these pilots, flying into the very muzzles of the enemy guns as they were...


That is a good question. I'd like to expand on it a bit if I may. What is a kamikaze impact upon a ship equivalent to in explosive power...in WitP terms I mean. A 500lb bomb? 1000lb bomb? Something else entirely? It would be nice if it was modeled so that a single kamikaze couldn't always sink a ship. (See USS Aaron Ward below, hit by 5-7 kamikazes, depending upon your source, and survived). Going by Matrix's exacting standards, it'd be my guess that they've probably thought of this[8D].

[image]local://upfiles/6913/Ki193374616.jpg[/image]



Mr.Frag -> RE: Kamakazi Units (6/4/2004 12:55:34 AM)

I took 3 of them on my CVE which is a pretty light ship and was still floating at the end of the turn. Another CVE went down with 2 hits so it is really a luck factor as to it being critical hit time or not.



GBirkn -> RE: Kamakazi Units (6/4/2004 1:38:26 AM)

quote:

(See USS Aaron Ward below, hit by 5-7 kamikazes, depending upon your source, and survived).


Now that's got to be system damage of at least 98!



ShakyJake -> RE: Kamakazi Units (6/4/2004 1:53:46 AM)

quote:

Yea, *but* a flaming wreak hitting you is just as effective ...

Not only does the flak have to kill the plane, it has to completely shred it to it doesn't make it to the ship. It is not as simple as you would think. Shooting it down is not a solution. One has to completely destroy it so it falls out of the sky *before* hitting the ship.


Yeah, I'd thought of this even as I posted what I did. Even a "destroyed" kamikaze plane could still fulfill his mission if his wreck was still able to hit the target. Still, I'm sure we've all seen those film reels on the history channel and elsewhere of those incoming kamikaze attacks. One thing I've noticed in the films is that most of those planes that were shot down lost wings or had such extensive fuselage damage (those 40mm Bofors rounds were brutal against those light airframes!) that they dropped out of the sky short of their intended targets. Ultimately, it would seem to me that these planes would be more in danger of being shot down without impacting against the target than divebombers or torpedo bombers, and I ask if this is true in the game? If so, how is this abstracted? A closer range at which they take flak? Or would the AA guns fire once at them much like a divebomber, but then get an extra attack in on the plane as they close in?



kaleun -> RE: Kamakazi Units (6/4/2004 2:47:12 AM)

One question: What kind of ship was the Aaron Ward? .
And, that gun turret sure survived quite well the disaster.



Mr.Frag -> RE: Kamakazi Units (6/4/2004 2:56:44 AM)

No debate ... Mog got about 6 through my defenses, but Pry had not set the ship classes right so I was running with 1942/42 AA levels instead. It cost him a *lot* of aircraft for the hits and overall they really didn't bother me. Had I had full AA, I doubt any would have gotten through. In later tests with the right AA levels, you almost don't need to fly CAP over an USN TF. You really have to feel for those guys. The only times they got through were due to mistakes made on the Allies side.

Obviously the second round of AA doesn't happen because it is a one way trip but the first round is at the punishing level.

One also has to remember that the guys on the AA guns were pretty well motivated after the word got around about the first suicide attack. They knew only too well it was hit the plane or die.



Svar -> RE: Kamakazi Units (6/4/2004 3:07:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kaleun

One question: What kind of ship was the Aaron Ward? .
And, that gun turret sure survived quite well the disaster.


Read all about it.



kaleun -> RE: Kamakazi Units (6/4/2004 3:08:43 AM)

can you give me the source? What battle was it in?



dwesolick -> RE: Kamakazi Units (6/4/2004 3:14:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kaleun

One question: What kind of ship was the Aaron Ward? .


She was originally built as a Sumner class DD, but was modified to a DM before the attack.
I was at Patriot's Point in SC last summer and got to see the DD Laffey which was also hit by 6-7 kamikazes and survived. She also saw service in Korea and Vietnam and is now a memorial (next to the very impressive Yorktown). Kind of amazing when you consider that the USS Bunker Hill (Essex class CV) took 2 kamikazes and was damn near sunk. Other DDs went down with a single hit.
Like Frag said, it all depends on luck (and superb US damage control[8D]). Glad it is modeled this way in the game.

edit: Oops, little late[8|]

[image]local://upfiles/6913/Ay748582441.jpg[/image]



kaleun -> RE: Kamakazi Units (6/4/2004 3:28:03 AM)

Thanks. I thought she looked like a DD.



Brady -> RE: Kamakazi Units (6/4/2004 6:16:20 AM)

"Midget subs are not in the game (officially) "


Ouch.



Mr.Frag -> RE: Kamakazi Units (6/4/2004 6:20:42 AM)

quote:

Ouch.


Brady, how many of them caused Allied ship losses?



Brady -> RE: Kamakazi Units (6/4/2004 6:27:46 AM)

If I have to answer that..........again..........it is defenatly not worth posting.......again, it points to somthing that can not be over come, and I see that now.


I sincearly appricate all the hard work done by the testers, and I do not mean that remark in a despearging way toward them or the designe crew personaly.



Mr.Frag -> RE: Kamakazi Units (6/4/2004 6:35:57 AM)

quote:

If I have to answer that..........again..........it is defenatly not worth posting.......again, it points to somthing that can not be over come, and I see that now.


It was serious question ...

If it was a weapons system that caused impact, then it should be in the game. I don't get a chance to read every note posted here because I am kinda busy. [;)]

It it had range so small that it doesn't work within a 60 mile hex scale, there is probably no way of dealing with it. PT boats had problems like that. Because of their severe range limits, there is a special rule where they do not use fuel unless moving outside the hex they are in.



Brady -> RE: Kamakazi Units (6/4/2004 6:44:07 AM)

I punted one of the more lengthy threads on the subject for you Mr. Frag, while it gets off tract a bit, you wil find all you would want to know, and likely more than you would care to on it and in the links it has.



Mr.Frag -> RE: Kamakazi Units (6/4/2004 7:08:48 AM)

quote:

I punted one of the more lengthy threads on the subject for you Mr. Frag, while it gets off tract a bit, you wil find all you would want to know, and likely more than you would care to on it and in the links it has.


Ok, I remember why I ignored it.

Flat out answer for you:

Too small a weapon to include without including equal level of stuff from the other side.

You will learn to *hate* small ships with piss poor range in WitP. You will send them into harms way just to get rid of them as they get stranded all over that map and do nothing more the hog your fuel stocks.

Japan more then makes up for any short comings here by having an unlimited number of torpedoes for aircraft use that have a heck of a lot more use and effectiveness then any of these toys.



Brady -> RE: Kamakazi Units (6/4/2004 7:37:59 AM)

"Too small a weapon to include without including equal level of stuff from the other side. "

O, So the Historicaly corect and I beleave well represented Huge Numerical andvantage that the Alliese enjoyed is not suficient..lol. I think Mogami, provided a decent explanation of my point of view in that thread.

"You will learn to *hate* small ships with piss poor range in WitP. You will send them into harms way just to get rid of them as they get stranded all over that map and do nothing more the hog your fuel stocks. "

Perhaps, but these would use little fuel.

"Japan more then makes up for any short comings here by having an unlimited number of torpedoes for aircraft use that have a heck of a lot more use and effectiveness then any of these toys. "

So do the allies.



Mr.Frag -> RE: Kamakazi Units (6/4/2004 8:06:42 AM)

quote:

So do the allies.


Nope, you are completely missing my point. Japan had serious contraints imposed by her poor industrial development.

These massive constraints are not modelled in the game. Each time you go to port and top up your guns or torpedoes, there will always be enough. Each time a plane take off, it has a full load of bombs or torpedoes to carry. They never run out.

This is *such* a boost to Japan that it is beyond belief.

The Allies did not suffer at all from this problem, producing far more then they could ever use once they got going. The Sherman tank was a classic example of this. It wasn't that they were good tanks, but the 10th one would always kill you after you had killed 9 of them. There were 30 replacements waiting for the 9 lost.

Adding 150 extra targets that do nothing would realistically mean that 300 torpedoes where not available for your planes or ships to carry. Since we don't cap the ships and planes, the loss of those 150 sure kills by Allied DE's that are not going to be doing anything else anyways means nothing to the Allies. It does not slow them down or change their strategy at all.



Brady -> RE: Kamakazi Units (6/4/2004 8:44:12 AM)

lol.



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