RE: WitP Copy Protection (Full Version)

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freeboy -> RE: WitP Copy Protection (6/4/2004 7:58:06 PM)

Lioke my favorite; "build a bridge a get over it "[:-]
Remember Frag is a member of the forum not a employee... not that anyone would be so rude to a customer[sm=00000643.gif]



kaleun -> RE: WitP Copy Protection (6/4/2004 7:59:52 PM)

Frag, I played UV from my laptop. Eventually my original CD was damaged (broke in half); I inquired from matrix about a replacement CD, since I did not want to pay for the whole thing again, 9-10 months before WITPcame out, I got no response.
So this ruined a couple of e-mail games. Someone at the forum e-mailed me a no-cd crack, but the security of my e-mail server never let me download it.
Bottom line is: Yes CDs get damaged, break, get eaten by dogs, etc. I COMPLETELY agree that piracy protection is a must. I do not let anyone copy my software, nor do I use pirated software, however, a system for registered users to replace damaged media should be available.



freeboy -> RE: WitP Copy Protection (6/4/2004 8:05:20 PM)

kaleun,
From my last digi download from Matrix, you could both download and get a cd... so if this stand truue for witp.. then no cd will be required and the cd in the mail will be my backup... surorised about the lack of Matrix response.. did you try calling someone in e-store support? If Matrix was my company replacing damaged cd's to "registered" , not licensed, users would be ok. This is one of those trust issues...
Any idea if the last update is closer to GOLD? [:D][:D][:D]
anyone? [8D]



kaleun -> RE: WitP Copy Protection (6/4/2004 8:12:40 PM)

My last purchase from Matrix was via digital download, and yes, I also ordered the CD for backup purpose. I did e-mail customer service, but they never go back to me.
Now, I hear WITP will be available for digital download, so if the system is the same as for the Battles on the Danube, it will have a simple "enter a serial #" and it will be good to go.
I am not dissing Matrix, I am just stating that accidents do happen, and it is just good customer service to offer replacement CDs. BTW If I was Matrix, I would require the return of the damaged media.
To quote Ronald Reagan "Trust but verify"[:)]



carnifex -> RE: WitP Copy Protection (6/4/2004 8:27:22 PM)

quote:

Mr. Frag:

All this crap about *rights* is exactly that ... *crap*. You have one *right* and only one. Keep your money in your pocket when in the store and say "no". Should you not exercise that "right", you have no others.


Yeah, thank god you're not in charge of anything.

First of all, you sound confused. When I buy the software, I am paying for the right to use that software, not the media that it's on. In effect I am purchasing a single-user license, and it doesn't matter if I have two copies or two hundred as long as I abide by the single-user license and not give copies to others or use several copies at the same time.

Second, where I live all software sold is covered by this: "Users may not make a copy of a piece of software for any other reason than as an archival back-up without permission of the copyright holder." This is from Section 117 of the U.S. Copyright Code, which specifically allows this as a safeguard against damage or destruction.

You may not be aware of your rights in Canada, but a the Canadian Copyright laws similarly state that "The owner of an authorized and legitimate copy of a piece of software may reproduce a single copy of the software, for backup purposes, provided that the single backup copy is destroyed immediately once the person ceases to be the owner of the authorized copy of the software".

I believe the original poster intends to copy for archival back-up purposes, so all your screaming about pirates doesn't apply. It sounds like you have some personal issues, with all that gleeful destroying people's hard drives drivel. You sound like you're a little short in the empathy department telling people too bad that they got a sub-standard drive or they should be more careful because it's their own fault that they are not as careful or lucky as you. You can live your own inconsiderate way but people who pay good money for some software only to have it ruined because of fat fingers or inquisitive children have my sympathy. More than that, they have a right to make a back-up.

The manufacturer is under no obligation to make copying easy. They can put all kinds of copy protection on it, but it is not illegal for the end-user to circumvent that copy protection if they are able to as long as they are making archival back-ups, and the manufacturer is without legal recourse, no matter what they put in the EULA.



freeboy -> RE: WitP Copy Protection (6/4/2004 8:35:36 PM)

An interesting topic is the courts(us) have ordered a stop to sales of a dvd burning software..
so are we gold yet... [:D][:D][:D]



Tophat -> RE: WitP Copy Protection (6/4/2004 8:35:44 PM)

Hmmmn,
I don't post much,but this nonsense from Frag struck a nerve:

quote:

Did I mention that I find pirates to be the lowest order of scum of the earth? People who steal should be treated by the old school rules ... chop their hand off!


Maybe you better rephrase this...........or simply move the mideast where your views are shared.



Adnan Meshuggi -> RE: WitP Copy Protection (6/4/2004 8:37:08 PM)

No i thnk you are wrong.
If you violate a copy defence system you do an illeagal thing... because the cd defence system was build in to protect the data and breaking the code manipulate the data you own a licence. Because most companies forbid in their general agreement conclusions to violate or change the code you do an illegal thing.

Whole idea is, that the user in the end just pay a montly rent for hard/software and own nothing. So old products give money or the customer has to rent new equippment.

Personally i will be Pirate Nr. 1 if this will come true. I want to buy something and not to rent it. If i pay x dollars for something (Say a licence) i want to own this licence. Not to pay monthly. We will see how the future will develop.

But piracy is bad - with demos and good working games (like witp - so please give it to us) there should be no problem to test a game and decide what you want to buy and what not. So the programmer have to work harder because everybody could test a game before he spend his money. Basically i did exactly this as i was young. Games i loved i bought, games i saw, i tested and if the first hour of playing was ****, i cleaned the disk of my amiga. The game Elite i own 3 times... as a ZX Spectrum, Amiga and PC-Version.... quite mad...[:)]



kaleun -> RE: WitP Copy Protection (6/4/2004 8:44:27 PM)

No Adnan, if the laws in your country state that you have the right to do something, for instance, make a backup copy, then it is legal to do so. If the laws do not forbid the person who sells it to try to prevent you from doing so, then that is legal too.
In a recent case in (I believe Sweden, but could be another Scandinavian country) the courts found in favor of a hacker who made software to allow for copying of copy protected DVDs. The rationale of the case was precisely that the owners of the DVDs had the right to make backup copies.
On the other hand, if the copyright owner does not want to sell you the license, but only to rent it to you, that is also his prerogative. That is what property and the free market is all about.



Damien Thorn -> RE: WitP Copy Protection (6/4/2004 10:11:55 PM)

I loaned a book to a friend last week. She didn't buy the right to read it so did I break the law? I'd hate for someone to chop off her hand. [X(]
While we're at it, maybe we should eliminate the entire library system. Isn't it just a low-tech version of file sharing?



kaleun -> RE: WitP Copy Protection (6/4/2004 10:15:22 PM)

The thing is, while she has the book, you can't read it, so it is OK. If you made a copy and gave it to her, that would be piracy



freeboy -> RE: WitP Copy Protection (6/4/2004 10:23:37 PM)

one book read at a time... the owner.. library etc paid the "right" to read it.. again lets look at why we have to have these laws... because poeple are not honest as a rule and if they could be trusted absolutely no laws.. police etc.... reminds me of a lecture on internal values verses external constraints which dealt with the needs individually or nattionally to have external controls to the degree self regulation(control) fails to meet the social good.



Mr.Frag -> RE: WitP Copy Protection (6/4/2004 11:23:22 PM)

quote:

The customer relation skills are... interesting.


I don't work for Matrix. I work for a fortune 50 company that looses millions of dollars due to software theft. It comes out of my bonus cheque so it pisses me off.

If I can't afford the losses, it is a pretty safe bet a little company like Matrix sure as heck can't.



freeboy -> RE: WitP Copy Protection (6/4/2004 11:26:29 PM)

Frag,
Hurts everyone.. as costs will go up to compensate for these non sales



Arnir -> RE: WitP Copy Protection (6/4/2004 11:30:13 PM)

Piracy is one of those topics that gets quite heated. Well, to be more precise, the copy protection schemes get heated. Very few people that I know of publicly try to defend piracy.

I don't have the technical knowledge to know why some cd-roms work and some don't, but I know that the only one I ever had that was problematic was on a pretty expensive Dell.

I don't mind copy protection if it doesn't get in my way. If I paid for it, then I want to be able to use it without hassles. If Matrix, for example, wants me to register to get a backup copy if my original fails, that's fine with me.

My question is: does copy protection hurt the pirates or the consumers more?



Mr.Frag -> RE: WitP Copy Protection (6/4/2004 11:30:33 PM)

quote:

Hurts everyone.. as costs will go up to compensate for these non sales


Not quite, it hurts those of us who *buy* the software. The other scum could not care less. It is great that my country passed a law that puts a dollar tax on a blank cd to drive the prices up and get the people who are hurting the industry.



freeboy -> RE: WitP Copy Protection (6/4/2004 11:32:45 PM)

In the big picture.. free stuff still costs .. even the stealers .. in the long run.. no offense to anyone in Pittsburg [:D]



kaleun -> RE: WitP Copy Protection (6/4/2004 11:51:13 PM)

Of course it also gets those that use blank cds for legitimate purposes, like keeping files, pictures etc.
The dollar tax is probably just an additional way for the gov. to get revenue. The piracy issue just the excuse.

And don't get me started about cigarettes!



Mr.Frag -> RE: WitP Copy Protection (6/5/2004 12:05:52 AM)

quote:

Of course it also gets those that use blank cds for legitimate purposes, like keeping files, pictures etc.


Whaaa whaaa whaaa ... apply for your exception for such use. You seem to be so well versed in the law.

As far as your *rights* and the *laws* in place.

If the licence specifically states that you do not have the right under the terms of the licence to make a copy, you are violating the terms of the licence and must immediately destroy the media and documentation. This *has* help up in *both* Canada and the USA.

Btw:

for the Criminals that don't like my views, I really don't care too deeply that you (being Criminals) take offence. Why should my tax dollars pay to feed you in jail? Much easier to just take you out and hang ya by the neck until dead [:'(]

The pure fact that we even have to have these pathetic discussions in the first place says very little about the morals of todays society.



2Stepper -> RE: WitP Copy Protection (6/5/2004 12:09:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Personally, I don't buy the damaged cd thing. I have had computers since before hard disks were invented and I have never lost any software to damage. If you care about it, you'll take care of it. If not, you pay for a replacement.

I'm sure you'll find zero help if you walk into Blockbuster and say your DVD is scratched. They'll be more then happy to sell you a new one and thats about it. Why should software be *any* different then movies/music. You get it, it works. You trash it too bad/so sad but no one really cares.

Copy protection is mandatory these days, not an option. I will lay money that someone here will be posting the software on a service like eMule within the first week of it being released. It is a sad world full of evil people that we live in these days. Don't pretend otherwise.

Couldn't agree more Frag... you make a valid point.



kaleun -> RE: WitP Copy Protection (6/5/2004 12:17:43 AM)

I don't believe that a license overrules law. (It should, but it doesn't)
And I take exception that anyone that doesn't like your views is a criminal.
A criminal by definition is someone who breaks the law (right or wrong)
I have always respected copyright law, and it irks me that just because I may disagree with you, you call me a criminal.
And that is the end of this topic as far as I'm concerned



CaptainBlood -> RE: WitP Copy Protection (6/5/2004 12:20:08 AM)

Jumping into the fray


For those of us who play primarily on our laptops the CD requirements stink. I would rather have a second battery instead of the CD Drive for longer play. This has nothing to do with sub-standard equipment or piracy; I just want to play it on my system the way I have it optimally configured.



Xargun -> RE: WitP Copy Protection (6/5/2004 12:29:03 AM)

Actually before I bought UV I had a friend scouring every hack site he knew for months and never saw a hint of the game. So I doubt that WitP will make it onto those sites - only RTS games show up there.

I also have been using computers before Hard Drives existed and I have several games in my collection with scratches and nicks on them that will not allow me to reinstall or even play the game with them and I have never dropped or done anything to them. They are nice concentric scratches like you would get if something scratched it while spinning - ie the CD player itself. Perhaps its your good luck, or my bad luck that sticks me with this problem, but at least I know I'm not alone.

But back to the main subject... I am not formenting piracy in any shape or form, but making a game where the CD MUST be in the drive to play AND companies that will not stand behind their products when CDs get damaged in normal use is in my opinion shoddy business. I cannot say whether or not Matrix is one of those, but I sincerely doubt they are - they have gone above and beyond with making WitP the great game it will be. I just have crappy luck with such things and with the time I expect to put into the game (and my crappy luck) I just have a feeling something will go wrong with the disc - especially if it must be in the drive to play.

Xargun



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: WitP Copy Protection (6/5/2004 12:49:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

Of course it also gets those that use blank cds for legitimate purposes, like keeping files, pictures etc.


Whaaa whaaa whaaa ... apply for your exception for such use. You seem to be so well versed in the law.

As far as your *rights* and the *laws* in place.

If the licence specifically states that you do not have the right under the terms of the licence to make a copy, you are violating the terms of the licence and must immediately destroy the media and documentation. This *has* help up in *both* Canada and the USA.

Btw:

for the Criminals that don't like my views, I really don't care too deeply that you (being Criminals) take offence. Why should my tax dollars pay to feed you in jail? Much easier to just take you out and hang ya by the neck until dead [:'(]

The pure fact that we even have to have these pathetic discussions in the first place says very little about the morals of todays society.


I absolutely 100% guarantee you, that regardless of the what the license says or does not say, I WILL make a back up copy, if I can, and safeguard my original and play from the backup, and dare anyone to do anything about it. However, with digital download, I doubt we will have to have a CD in the drive to play it. Which is good. I am one of those who does not always have a CD drive in the main working computer, which is, a notebook. But rest assured, the copy I buy will never run on more than one machine.....MY machine.



Mr.Frag -> RE: WitP Copy Protection (6/5/2004 12:55:14 AM)

quote:

And I take exception that anyone that doesn't like your views is a criminal.
A criminal by definition is someone who breaks the law (right or wrong)
I have always respected copyright law, and it irks me that just because I may disagree with you, you call me a criminal.


You need to slow down when you read. At no point did I call you a criminal. I said specifically "btw: for the Criminals that don't like my views, ..."

If you want to take that as being you ... then I guess you are telling me you *are* one. If you are not, then you should not be taking offence because it specifically does not apply to you right? [;)]



Hartley -> RE: WitP Copy Protection (6/5/2004 12:59:21 AM)

Copyright/piracy flamefests are so usenet circa 1996.


Yuck.



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: WitP Copy Protection (6/5/2004 1:01:38 AM)

I assume not, since I have never attemted to pirate a game or anything else. But I copy stuff all the time, even my Windows XP pro CD. I'm more like the guy who seems to have trouble with his media. No matter what I do, the damned CD's end up with sort of a scratch, eventually. May take three or four years, but some end up damaged beyond use eventually, even when I try and take care. And expect this is one of those games I will be playing 10 years down the road. And IF I end up with a CD version, I WILL copy it, if I can, and store the original away safely and run with the backup, no matter what the license says about it.



GBirkn -> RE: WitP Copy Protection (6/5/2004 1:06:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hartley

Copyright/piracy flamefests are so usenet circa 1996.


Yuck.


Amen. And for all of the flaming that gets expended, nothing ever changes. Honest people buy software honestly, dishonest people don't. Assorted people think that they've got the perfect legal or technical solution to the problem, but don't. The more things change . . .



Mr.Frag -> RE: WitP Copy Protection (6/5/2004 1:07:03 AM)

quote:

regardless of the what the license says or does not say, I WILL make a back up copy


And why is this when Matrix offers replacement services? I understand your desire to protect yourself and have no issues with it personally provided it is within the terms of the licence.

Should Matrix choose to offer an alternative option and disallow your copy, that is completely within their right as publisher. You do not have a legal leg to stand on as long as Matrix has a replacement policy for defective media and you know it.

If you have ever bought anything through Matrix's download service, you can (a) get an extended download option for beyond 30 days if you choose and (b) order a backup cd from them and still be legal without having to resort to other means.

We can quote law back and forth for days and you and I both know that when it comes right down to it, 99.9% of these things are settled before they go to court with the pirate paying money and going away because they know they are in the wrong and can not afford the $1,000,000 in legal fees to attempt to slip through some loophole. It is about time that the various governments are stepping forward and dealing with this very serious issue that costs billions of dollars a year to the industry. In 5-10 years, software piracy will be a thing of the past. It takes time, but it will happen. As it sits right now, the follow on to Windows XP will not allow you to run without a valid key from Microsoft that you must call them up for. It is only a matter of time until all the groups merge together and use the same system and bring an end to this massive theft.



Mark VII -> RE: WitP Copy Protection (6/5/2004 1:34:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2Stepper

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Personally, I don't buy the damaged cd thing. I have had computers since before hard disks were invented and I have never lost any software to damage. If you care about it, you'll take care of it. If not, you pay for a replacement.

I'm sure you'll find zero help if you walk into Blockbuster and say your DVD is scratched. They'll be more then happy to sell you a new one and thats about it. Why should software be *any* different then movies/music. You get it, it works. You trash it too bad/so sad but no one really cares.

Copy protection is mandatory these days, not an option. I will lay money that someone here will be posting the software on a service like eMule within the first week of it being released. It is a sad world full of evil people that we live in these days. Don't pretend otherwise.

Couldn't agree more Frag... you make a valid point.



OK, I have no problem with the copy protection method of requiring the dvd to play the game. It prevents illegal copying, thats good! Sometimes its a pain in the butt, like when I went on vacation once, brought my wife's laptop along but then leave the disk in my desk top at home. NO UV for a WEEK, including the 9 hour drive each way(oh, the humanity), but I got over it, my fault.

I think the original intention of the question about a damaged disk(for what ever reason), was could it be replaced without paying the original full $70+ again. A dvd costs less than a dollar to reproduce/burn per unit(not counting artwork, packageing, etc) provided its in the 10,000+unit range(maybe the WiTP dvd run will be less, so that "less than a dollar" cost will go up some). The rest of the $69+ is to recoup the costs of programing, research, testing, time spent on the project, support, and all the other "things" needed to put a game out that runs correctly(something that Matrix does well). The actual cost of reproducing a dvd disk(provided a large run) is nothing compared to the costs of producing the master disk!


Should I not be able return a damaged disk to Matrix, pay $5 to $10 for a new disk, and another $5 for shipping. I have already paid the original $70+ for the first disk and the "right" to play the game under the license, why pay the full price again if I am returning the original "damaged" disk? True, I have also yet to damage a DVD in my computer, but you never know what might happen.



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