ModSwapper & Panther Leo and What It Means (Full Version)

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David Heath -> ModSwapper & Panther Leo and What It Means (6/16/2004 9:27:25 AM)

Hi Guys

First I want to thank Steve McClaire for programming this for us. Steve has done a great job in record time. What did he program you ask......... ModSwapper.

Panther Leo has join the Matrix Games team and is currently putting the finishing touches on the next version of H2H. Now what does this all have to do with SPWaW.

Well SPWaW v8.20 will be now include Panther Leo's H2H mod. With Steve McClair's ModSwapper for SPWaW gamers can now add modified SPWaW from OOB's rightdown to sound or graphic files and never mess up there original SPWaW as modswap allows for very simple install and uninstall of any and all mods. Players can now make and design any type of changes to SPWaW and then have the ModSwapper take care of it.

When Panther Leo next edition of H2H for SPWaW v8.20 is ready you will be able to download it here. On a side note Panther Leo is also now on our Combat Leader team working with us.

.....More news coming.



sabreman1966mcs -> RE: ModSwapper & Panther Leo and What It Means (6/16/2004 10:11:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Heath

Hi Guys

First I want to thank Steve McClaire for programming this for us. Steve has done a great job in record time. What did he program you ask......... ModSwapper.

Panther Leo has join the Matrix Games team and is currently putting the finishing touches on the next version of H2H. Now what does this all have to do with SPWaW.

Well SPWaW v8.20 will be now include Panther Leo's H2H mod. With Steve McClair's ModSwapper for SPWaW gamers can now add modified SPWaW from OOB's rightdown to sound or graphic files and never mess up there original SPWaW as modswap allows for very simple install and uninstall of any and all mods. Players can now make and design any type of changes to SPWaW and then have the ModSwapper take care of it.

When Panther Leo next edition of H2H for SPWaW v8.20 is ready you will be able to download it here. On a side note Panther Leo is also now on our Combat Leader team working with us.

.....More news coming.


David,

What can I say....excellent news [&o]



Rune Iversen -> RE: ModSwapper & Panther Leo and What It Means (6/16/2004 10:31:24 AM)

w00t!!

A long wanted customer wish fullfilled. My congratulations. A very responsible solution.



Warrior2 -> RE: ModSwapper & Panther Leo and What It Means (6/16/2004 2:09:00 PM)

Outstanding!



Red Devil -> RE: ModSwapper & Panther Leo and What It Means (6/16/2004 2:21:05 PM)

So is this what has delayed the 8.2 release..?

Well, I for one am glad that it has been delayed, because if this is to be the last major overhaul of SPWaW then lets get it right, and give the gamers the tools to change things themselves if they want to.

I am eagerly waiting the release of 8.2 even more than before now...[:)]



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> RE: ModSwapper & Panther Leo and What It Means (6/16/2004 2:40:17 PM)

Now you know why I am not part of the angry waiting majority :)

Not bad for a free game eh.

Very impressive Leo, once again you prove yourself a valuable asset to us wargamers.



wodin -> RE: ModSwapper & Panther Leo and What It Means (6/16/2004 3:08:05 PM)

Woohoo!!

Hope Hellcat might understand a little more now.

Good news getting more bodies on CL aswell. Very good news indeed.



Orzel Bialy -> RE: ModSwapper & Panther Leo and What It Means (6/16/2004 3:45:19 PM)

David,

The Mod-Swapper program is a very good idea and I am very glad to hear that Panzer Leo is still planning to do an updated version for H2H.

Thank you for sharing this information as it continues to take any "edge" there was off the issue about the delay of release.



Toivo -> RE: ModSwapper & Panther Leo and What It Means (6/16/2004 3:47:23 PM)

Well I definately didn't expect such a good news:) Early Christmas?



KG Erwin -> RE: ModSwapper & Panther Leo and What It Means (6/16/2004 3:50:08 PM)

Now that the secret is out, I hope you guys understand what I've been bursting at the seams to tell you, but couldn't. Whew! What a relief. [:)]



m10bob -> RE: ModSwapper & Panther Leo and What It Means (6/16/2004 5:33:22 PM)

That is about the best wargaming news I could imagine..Very open-minded by all parties concerned..Thank you..No,really,I mean it.....THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!![&o]



Belisarius -> RE: ModSwapper & Panther Leo and What It Means (6/16/2004 6:09:36 PM)

Wow, that's a surprise! Eeexcellent, this makes 8.2 MUCH more wanted in my eyes.

Gimmegimmegimme.

/spoiled[:'(]



Paddington -> RE: ModSwapper & Panther Leo and What It Means (6/16/2004 6:17:39 PM)

Great news!



Alby -> RE: ModSwapper & Panther Leo and What It Means (6/16/2004 6:50:56 PM)

So, does this mean no more 2 installs of spwaw??
one for H2H and One for Reg spwaw??
both these games can now be played from one install??
This is the best thing thats ever happened!!!!
Thanks guys!!!
[:)]
Reminds me of the movie Patton when Bradley told him that Ike had decided months ago he would command 3rd army

"Why that dirty...." heheheheh[:D]



rbrunsman -> RE: ModSwapper & Panther Leo and What It Means (6/16/2004 6:54:57 PM)

Not to rain on the parade, but...

Leo is another believer in the thought that "unit costs should include rarity factors." That is a bad thing for PBEM gamers.

Unless someone at Matrix would care to allay my concerns about this. If it is only a minor change here and there to the point costs, I have no problem, but if a 3000 pt Allied force is not combat equal to a 3000 pt Axis force, then PBEM is fubar.

rb



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> RE: ModSwapper & Panther Leo and What It Means (6/16/2004 7:11:15 PM)

I probably shouldn't be even touching this issue, I might get sucked into something I don't wish to invite.

But why should rarity not be ruthlessly inforced?

In ASL, a tank bought in 1939, will not be the same cost necessarily when bought in 41, or 45 assuming it was even in use in all those years. Because they were NOT worth the same in differing years in some cases.

Of course, PBEM likely only demonstrates the same weakness you find in ASL's DYO system. A scenario not pre play tested has no reason to be expected to be play balanced period end of story.

I categorically refuse to play ASL via DYO (design your own) simply for that reason. Total waste of time.

To my knowledge, PBEM Steel Panthers is essentially playing Battle mode correct?
No better than an ASL DYO game though. Unplay tested, hence likely grossly unbalanced hence likely a waste of time.

Which probably explains why no one has been playing me online eh.

I would likely only want to play a human opponent a game of Steel Panthers if they were to select a scenario that was actually conciously and deliberately designed to be sensible credible, historical, and tested.

I actually would rather the prices be ruthlessly historical, ruthlessly rarity relevant, and if this kicks PBEM in the crotch, well I guess that would be what I would do to it.

Considering all the effort going into the game to make it "accurate" ie "realistic", making concessions to purchasing just so 4 tanks on my side equals 4 tanks on your side, seems to make a lot of the other work a pointless waste ot time.
Might as well just make all the tanks the same tank. Small ones, medium ones and big ones.



Marc von Martial -> RE: ModSwapper & Panther Leo and What It Means (6/16/2004 7:20:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alby

So, does this mean no more 2 installs of spwaw??
one for H2H and One for Reg spwaw??
both these games can now be played from one install??
This is the best thing thats ever happened!!!!
Thanks guys!!!


Basically yes. We introduced ModSwap (as we call it) with Squad Assault. The idea behind it is that you are able to swap "mods" for the game with a simple mouseclick (and some seconds patience as the tool swaps files). Mods are packed in ModSwap specific files to avoid confusion. We will give out a manual with it so every gamer will be able to write / generate his own modswap files.

Comes pretty usefull for swapping OOBs etc.



Orzel Bialy -> RE: ModSwapper & Panther Leo and What It Means (6/16/2004 7:39:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rbrunsman

Not to rain on the parade, but...

Leo is another believer in the thought that "unit costs should include rarity factors." That is a bad thing for PBEM gamers.

Unless someone at Matrix would care to allay my concerns about this. If it is only a minor change here and there to the point costs, I have no problem, but if a 3000 pt Allied force is not combat equal to a 3000 pt Axis force, then PBEM is fubar.

rb


RB,

I think that it's a good bet that both regular 8.2 and H2H 8.2 will be basically the same formats as far as pricing and OoB composition...the only difference being that one version is based to take on AI play and the other Pbem.

It's a good question though.



Voriax -> RE: ModSwapper & Panther Leo and What It Means (6/16/2004 8:14:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orzel Bialy


I think that it's a good bet that both regular 8.2 and H2H 8.2 will be basically the same formats as far as pricing and OoB composition...the only difference being that one version is based to take on AI play and the other Pbem.



As a member of 'price according to performance' camp I really, really hope it won't be this way. Let there be rarity-inflicted H2H pricing and performance based 8.2 pricing, please.
But, with the modswapper tool it will be easier to for example go back to 7.1 prices if necessary.

Voriax



Alby -> RE: ModSwapper & Panther Leo and What It Means (6/16/2004 8:51:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alby

So, does this mean no more 2 installs of spwaw??
one for H2H and One for Reg spwaw??
both these games can now be played from one install??
This is the best thing thats ever happened!!!!
Thanks guys!!!


Basically yes. We introduced ModSwap (as we call it) with Squad Assault. The idea behind it is that you are able to swap "mods" for the game with a simple mouseclick (and some seconds patience as the tool swaps files). Mods are packed in ModSwap specific files to avoid confusion. We will give out a manual with it so every gamer will be able to write / generate his own modswap files.

Comes pretty usefull for swapping OOBs etc.

That is too cool
Thanks![:)]



Don Doom -> RE: ModSwapper & Panther Leo and What It Means (6/16/2004 9:14:25 PM)

We'll see.



m10bob -> RE: ModSwapper & Panther Leo and What It Means (6/16/2004 9:29:49 PM)

Has anybody actually looked into getting realistic color coding for the "Tickle Me Elmo" cotton candy PX wagon near the remfmobiles for the OOB's?????LMAO!!!!!!!!
I see this announcement as nothing but great news..
Please get it out and free Matrix for PROFIT-EARNING considerations..I do not want you folks having to close your doors and go by the wayside (leaving the wargaming community to the fools and idiots on Wall Street,(or "Kindergarten College Kampfers" for that matter..)[;)]
On with CL,etc.................[:'(]



rbrunsman -> RE: ModSwapper & Panther Leo and What It Means (6/16/2004 9:39:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

I probably shouldn't be even touching this issue, I might get sucked into something I don't wish to invite.

But why should rarity not be ruthlessly inforced?

In ASL, a tank bought in 1939, will not be the same cost necessarily when bought in 41, or 45 assuming it was even in use in all those years. Because they were NOT worth the same in differing years in some cases.

Of course, PBEM likely only demonstrates the same weakness you find in ASL's DYO system. A scenario not pre play tested has no reason to be expected to be play balanced period end of story.

I categorically refuse to play ASL via DYO (design your own) simply for that reason. Total waste of time.

To my knowledge, PBEM Steel Panthers is essentially playing Battle mode correct?
No better than an ASL DYO game though. Unplay tested, hence likely grossly unbalanced hence likely a waste of time.

Which probably explains why no one has been playing me online eh.

I would likely only want to play a human opponent a game of Steel Panthers if they were to select a scenario that was actually conciously and deliberately designed to be sensible credible, historical, and tested.

I actually would rather the prices be ruthlessly historical, ruthlessly rarity relevant, and if this kicks PBEM in the crotch, well I guess that would be what I would do to it.

Considering all the effort going into the game to make it "accurate" ie "realistic", making concessions to purchasing just so 4 tanks on my side equals 4 tanks on your side, seems to make a lot of the other work a pointless waste ot time.
Might as well just make all the tanks the same tank. Small ones, medium ones and big ones.


Les, I think you'd make a good Communist since you have clear ideas about what is best for everyone's gaming enjoyment. [;)]

As for make all the tanks the same; that is clearly NOT what performance pricing is about. You are implying that all tanks should be 50, 100 or 200 pts. PBEM players don't care how many different tanks there are (the more the better actually) as long as 1000 pts against 1000 pts is an equal battle.

It really isn't a difficult concept to grasp and anyone that tries to impose their desire for historical accuracy in force selection over game play is just not "getting it."

rb



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> RE: ModSwapper & Panther Leo and What It Means (6/16/2004 10:30:08 PM)

Implying I would be an ideal commie is kinda funny all things considered (and my feelings where that moronic form of goivernment is concerned hehe).

But hmm 1000 points being equal to 1000 points, interesting notion. Should you not just stick with checkers then?

I daresay you would likely end up a perpetually grumpy ASL player if you have never played the game.

"Hey how come he got three tiger tanks and all I got with the %#&%$# pair of Shermans?"

"Well, that's because that was what your side got".

You must really hate playing Fall of France games, those damnable Germans have an unfair advantage. And Look at this Barbarossa game, again the Germans start off with more than the Russians. And what's with the Midway battle game, the Yanks get a few lousy carriers, yet you almost paint the Japanese with naval vessels.

You call that fair?

No RB I guess I don't get your ideas.



Fallschirmjager -> RE: ModSwapper & Panther Leo and What It Means (6/16/2004 10:35:07 PM)

I may just have to download 8.2 afterall

Better go dig out all those MC cds....



dox44 -> RE: ModSwapper & Panther Leo and What It Means (6/16/2004 11:28:21 PM)

great news and thanks Matrix!



rbrunsman -> RE: ModSwapper & Panther Leo and What It Means (6/16/2004 11:46:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Implying I would be an ideal commie is kinda funny all things considered (and my feelings where that moronic form of goivernment is concerned hehe).

But hmm 1000 points being equal to 1000 points, interesting notion. Should you not just stick with checkers then?

I daresay you would likely end up a perpetually grumpy ASL player if you have never played the game.

"Hey how come he got three tiger tanks and all I got with the %#&%$# pair of Shermans?"

"Well, that's because that was what your side got".

You must really hate playing Fall of France games, those damnable Germans have an unfair advantage. And Look at this Barbarossa game, again the Germans start off with more than the Russians. And what's with the Midway battle game, the Yanks get a few lousy carriers, yet you almost paint the Japanese with naval vessels.

You call that fair?

No RB I guess I don't get your ideas.


A performance based point system can be all things to all people. A rarity based system only satisfies historical accuracy fanatics.

If you want Midway or Barbarosa, you just set it up according to the historical situation as can easily be determined by referencing the right books. The cost of a unit has no bearing on the scenario creation.

Two PBEM players who want a fairly matched battle (and not caring about recreating a historical scenario) cannot do so with a rarity inspired point system.

When I want to recreate history I get a scenario. When I want to match my wits against someone else there has to be some way of knowing that we each have the same number of checkers. Don't we? [&:] A performance based point system does this. A rarity based system doesn't.

The rarity based people are imposing their will on everyone, even if they don't want the imposition. Performance based people see it as everyone can get what they want out of the game. I don't see why this is a tough concept for people to understand.

And, I'm annoyed that the Matrix folks alway just ignore this kind of inquiry. If performance based costs were good enough for SP1 to SPWAW v7.1, why change it now?

rb



tmac -> RE: ModSwapper & Panther Leo and What It Means (6/17/2004 12:20:56 AM)

I may be waaaay off base here, because I haven't delved into editing or swapping oob's etc at all playing the game, I have only played the stock game. But, can't a player right now (and apparently easier in the future with this modification) edit the oob to have the pricing format set like RB desires?
This wouldn't seem to be (here's where I go out on a limb speculating about things I don't know about) that hard to do, albeit a little tedious, but done once and posted, would be avalaible to all interested parties for PBEM play if desired? This may be a huge job, I don't know, to change all unit prices, but again, done once it would be available to all. There seems to be enough interest to entice a few volunteers to try. MG will post the stock version, and then modders out there can tweak to hearts content and then use new utility to swap them in easily.
Am I ignorant of issues that would prevent this?
Is it sour grapes to say MG didn't use the pricing system I prefer, if it is possible for me to change it?

Please don't interpret this as a personal attack on anyone, because it is not meant that way at all, and I may be just showing everyone how little I know about modding the oob. I clearly see RB and others pricing prefence having validity for evenly matched PBEM games. Is it that big a job to change it?

I'm interested in hearing your opinions, thanks

Tim



Kevin E. Duguay -> RE: ModSwapper & Panther Leo and What It Means (6/17/2004 1:02:31 AM)

Panzer Leo is one of the best IMHO. Glad to see him on the team.

It was Leo after all that got me interested in the internal workings of SPWaW. He is an inspiration to me and Im sure other's that have had a hand in this game.

Leo, did you manage to get the OOB team to get rid of that stupid SU-37 assault gun and replace it with your historicly correct SU-45?(Na-Gum?)



Nikademus -> RE: ModSwapper & Panther Leo and What It Means (6/17/2004 1:59:00 AM)

Congratulations Leo...

now get to work ya slacker [:'(]



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