Why not put the manual up for download? (Full Version)

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Knavey -> Why not put the manual up for download? (6/25/2004 6:29:56 AM)

Those of us that have to wait on the actual game could do some "light" reading.



52nd Lowland -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/25/2004 10:15:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Knavey

Those of us that have to wait on the actual game could do some "light" reading.


I concur as it would (hopefully) stop us from constantly asking the equivalent of "are we there yet" in when the game is going to be ready for download.



tigercub -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/25/2004 10:42:06 AM)

downloading next year was it?[;)] oooohhh week!! manual would be great!



52nd Lowland -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/25/2004 2:05:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tigercub

downloading next year was it?[;)] oooohhh week!! manual would be great!


Maybe some kind soul who has the game can host or allow someone to host the manual if that was ok with the people at Matrix and 2by3 pretty please [:)]



Pascal_slith -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/25/2004 2:21:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 52nd Lowland

quote:

ORIGINAL: tigercub

downloading next year was it?[;)] oooohhh week!! manual would be great!


Maybe some kind soul who has the game can host or allow someone to host the manual if that was ok with the people at Matrix and 2by3 pretty please [:)]



Now there's a great idea. So Matrix and 2by3, why not?



Jaypea -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/25/2004 3:09:21 PM)

Sounds like having the manual would save us all a few days so we can get in the game faster [:D]

Can we have the manual now? please! [&o]



worr -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/25/2004 3:15:39 PM)

Having written a manual myself.....I can tell you that the payment pirce covers the cost of the manuel too.

Plan on purchasing the game and manual together. :)

Worr, out



dwesolick -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/25/2004 3:50:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: worr

Having written a manuel myself.....I can tell you that the payment pirce covers the cost of the manuel too.

Plan on purchasing the game and manual together. :)

Worr, out


Hope you spelled "manual" right when you wrote yours[;)]. Or was it a book about a Spanish guy named "Manuel"?[:'(]



elmo3 -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/25/2004 4:12:10 PM)

If they're too busy at Origins to put the game online for sale do you really think they're going to take time to put the manual up for free???



52nd Lowland -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/25/2004 4:25:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3

If they're too busy at Origins to put the game online for sale do you really think they're going to take time to put the manual up for free???


Im not implying that they should do it but if someone who already has bought the game might do it.It would be nice reading over my weekend nightshift at work and distract from playing UV on my laptop [:)]



Spooky -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/25/2004 4:30:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3

If they're too busy at Origins to put the game online for sale do you really think they're going to take time to put the manual up for free???


Well, if Matrix wants to put the manual online, it should take about 3 mn since it is only a pdf file to put on a FTP site.

Quite often, the publishers did not want to put manuals online because they believed it could increase piracy but it was when most manuals were only available on paper ... Since the WITP manual is only a few pdf files and so quite easy to exchange (at least much more than a paper-only manual !), to make it available in the Matrix FTP should not really increase piracy

However, we do not know the size of the manuals (10-15 Mbytes ?) so maybe Matrix does not want to see its servers overwhelmed by thousands of future WITP gamers loooking for the manuals [:D]



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/25/2004 4:32:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Knavey

Those of us that have to wait on the actual game could do some "light" reading.


I can't imagine why they would ever do such a thing. The manual(s) is(are) as much intellectual property as the game binaries! And almost as much cost goes into to producing those as the game code and design. Consider the manuals to be as integral a part of a game as the artwork, sound, and code. They don't give that away for free so why would they the manuals?



Spooky -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/25/2004 4:45:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

quote:

ORIGINAL: Knavey

Those of us that have to wait on the actual game could do some "light" reading.


I can't imagine why they would ever do such a thing. The manual(s) is(are) as much intellectual property as the game binaries! And almost as much cost goes into to producing those as the game code and design. Consider the manuals to be as integral a part of a game as the artwork, sound, and code. They don't give that away for free so why would they the manuals?


Maybe in order to sell more WITP copies [&:] since gamers will be able to take a look at the manual and think "this is the game I need !" ... By the way, a company keeps its Intellectual Property even if a document with IP can be downloaded for free. For instance, all the Microsoft guides can be downloaded from their web site ...



Og -> Who would do this? (6/25/2004 4:49:54 PM)

Who would "steal" the manual and not play the game? Okay, I know, I am some guy who wants to write a clone of WitP so I download the manual and get to work?

I can't believe people here really think I would download this manual and not buy or steal the game.

yours
Jiro



52nd Lowland -> RE: Who would do this? (6/25/2004 4:56:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Og

Who would "steal" the manual and not play the game? Okay, I know, I am some guy who wants to write a clone of WitP so I download the manual and get to work?

I can't believe people here really think I would download this manual and not buy or steal the game.

yours
Jiro


Speaking for myself i would pay the $70 for WiTP without a blink of the eye and would pay the same in shipping if i thought i would get a copy before the Digital Downloading came online.
Also i could not see someone getting a copy and putting it out on the web wanting to download the manual as it would probably be already ripped in the copy of the game as i have seen with Uncommon Valor.



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/25/2004 5:27:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spooky

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

quote:

ORIGINAL: Knavey

Those of us that have to wait on the actual game could do some "light" reading.


I can't imagine why they would ever do such a thing. The manual(s) is(are) as much intellectual property as the game binaries! And almost as much cost goes into to producing those as the game code and design. Consider the manuals to be as integral a part of a game as the artwork, sound, and code. They don't give that away for free so why would they the manuals?


Maybe in order to sell more WITP copies [&:] since gamers will be able to take a look at the manual and think "this is the game I need !" ... By the way, a company keeps its Intellectual Property even if a document with IP can be downloaded for free. For instance, all the Microsoft guides can be downloaded from their web site ...



Yea, that's true to a degree. But at places like IBM, and Oracle where they have on-line documentation for all their products, you can only get to it via a support contract. In this case the manuals are an integral part of the package itself and part of the versioning process and to release them separately would create a complete MESS in software release management. And truthfully, putting out the manual would have NO impact on sales at all. You are going to buy it pre-released manual or not. In fact, from a marketing perspective, putting a 600+ page manual(s) out BEFORE binary release would drive a lot of people away and actually DECREASE sales as the casual gamer, who might otherwise buy it to try it out would be scared away!



Spooky -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/25/2004 5:51:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
Yea, that's true to a degree. But at places like IBM, and Oracle where they have on-line documentation for all their products, you can only get to it via a support contract. In this case the manuals are an integral part of the package itself and part of the versioning process and to release them separately would create a complete MESS in software release management. And truthfully, putting out the manual would have NO impact on sales at all. You are going to buy it pre-released manual or not. In fact, from a marketing perspective, putting a 600+ page manual(s) out BEFORE binary release would drive a lot of people away and actually DECREASE sales as the casual gamer, who might otherwise buy it to try it out would be scared away!


Well, I am able to get all the docs I want from Novell, Microsoft, Sun (softwares) without any support contract.

However, from a marketing perspective, I really do not know ... since WITP is going to be quite expensive for a computer game, I do not think there is going to be a lot of "casual" gamers buying WITP - while I hope a lot of WITP buyers will spread the word on "how good WITP is" and that thanks to this word of mouth, some strategy gamers will try to get more informations about the WITP - through a downloadable manual, an extensive FAQ and of course the forum ...



Mr.Frag -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/25/2004 5:54:57 PM)

The manual without the game in front of you will cause more confusion then it is worth. It is overly detailed and without seeing how things fit together in front of you, you will just get frustrated.



kaleun -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/25/2004 5:56:15 PM)

WITP owners that are telling their (sick) friends that WITP is the best thing since sliced bread and Playboy, can easily give them (Matrix don't look now[;)]) a copy of the (copyrighted[8D]) PDF file for their perusal.
Of course it violates piracy laws so I'd never do that.
However, it may very well increase sales.
Now WHEN IS THE DOWNLOAD[&o][&o][&o]



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/25/2004 6:08:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

The manual without the game in front of you will cause more confusion then it is worth. It is overly detailed and without seeing how things fit together in front of you, you will just get frustrated.


Exactly, game manuals without the game are useless, unless you are a die-hard follower of the game during its development, which will account for only small percentage of the eventual sales. If 2X3 were going to expend effort to get downloaded material available, those manhours (aka $$$$'s) would be best spent on better marketing materials, and general feature overviews, not detailed reference manuals (which is what the main game manuals are). People interested enough in getting into the guts of the game are going to buy it anyway, so why bother. The analogy to Sun or Microsofts online documentation simply does not apply. YOu will go to the MS Office site and dig into the reference manuals ONLY if you already own Office and are having a problem, NOT to see if you want to buy it!!!



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/25/2004 6:12:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kaleun

WITP owners that are telling their (sick) friends that WITP is the best thing since sliced bread and Playboy, can easily give them (Matrix don't look now[;)]) a copy of the (copyrighted[8D]) PDF file for their perusal.
Of course it violates piracy laws so I'd never do that.
However, it may very well increase sales.
Now WHEN IS THE DOWNLOAD[&o][&o][&o]


No, it will NOT increase sales one bit. Grognards will buy this game, separately available REFERENCE manual or not. In fact, a widely available detailed reference manual would tend to drive a lot of marginally interested people away due tot he scare factor and would have JUST THE OPPOSITE effect of what you state. You are totally confusing your fanatical desire to get into this game with what makes logical business sense. You and your friends are going to buy this game, period, no matter what. Again, confusing grognard fanaticism borne out of a fanatical following of this game's development, with general business common sense....



52nd Lowland -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/25/2004 6:18:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

quote:

ORIGINAL: kaleun

WITP owners that are telling their (sick) friends that WITP is the best thing since sliced bread and Playboy, can easily give them (Matrix don't look now[;)]) a copy of the (copyrighted[8D]) PDF file for their perusal.
Of course it violates piracy laws so I'd never do that.
However, it may very well increase sales.
Now WHEN IS THE DOWNLOAD[&o][&o][&o]


No, it will NOT increase sales one bit. Grognards will buy this game, separately available REFERENCE manual or not. In fact, a widely available detailed reference manual would tend to drive a lot of marginally interested people away due tot he scare factor and would have JUST THE OPPOSITE effect of what you state. You are totally confusing your fanatical desire to get into this game with what makes logical business sense. You and your friends are going to buy this game, period, no matter what. Again, confusing grognard fanaticism borne out of a fanatical following of this game's development, with general business common sense....


Well put ZOOMIE1980,the vast majority of people would not touch WitP with a barge pole and one look at the manual would convince them not to bother !
The diehard following for this game is confirmed by people actually going out to Origins in Columbus..something ive never heard of before.



kaleun -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/25/2004 6:20:22 PM)

Actually my point is that, at this stage, we are all within days of buying the game.
If one of our friends, who has heard from us how great the game is, or has seen us playing, wants to take a look at the manual, he would be able to.
Essentially all of us who peruse this forums, will order the game, the minute it is available for purchase. While I was interested in taking a look at the manual earlier on, I am quite happy (resigned) to wait for the DD.
And of course, I wouldn't want anyone at Matrix to waste time, at this stage, to put up the manual on the board.
And BTW I often end up reading the manuals for 1 or 2 days, before I get to play the game (for logistical reasons involving the spouse unit)[;)]



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/25/2004 6:29:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kaleun

Actually my point is that, at this stage, we are all within days of buying the game.
If one of our friends, who has heard from us how great the game is, or has seen us playing, wants to take a look at the manual, he would be able to.
Essentially all of us who peruse this forums, will order the game, the minute it is available for purchase. While I was interested in taking a look at the manual earlier on, I am quite happy (resigned) to wait for the DD.
And of course, I wouldn't want anyone at Matrix to waste time, at this stage, to put up the manual on the board.
And BTW I often end up reading the manuals for 1 or 2 days, before I get to play the game (for logistical reasons involving the spouse unit)[;)]



One thing the fanatics (and if you post regularly here, you are a fanatic) often forget is the companies like 2X3 exist to MAKE MONEY for their owners, not as some hobby venture for a collection of independently wealthy rich people with a lot of idle time and cash to throw at a recreational pastime. The absolute WORST thing that could happen to this game is to have the mainstream gaming industry attach the "Grognard's Only" label to it.

Hopefully they've done a good enough job of being able to use game settings to turn off most of the micromanagment features we 'nards love to fiddle with to allow the game to be fun to play for casual wargamer as well. The guy that's looking for a break from his Halflife II time. And then convincing editors and reviewers at places like PC Gamer that this game can appeal to all levels of Wargamers, not just radical grognards. That will be the difference between the game moving 3,000 copies or 30,000, or 300,000.... A widely available reference manual would only assist in making sure that number remained close the 3,000 level.......

Oh, and yes, I will spend several days just reading manual, and following the tutorial while reading the manual....



brisd -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/25/2004 6:40:07 PM)

Don't post the manual. Make them pay for it, too much work put into this to give something away for free. And I recommend if someone posts the manual and offers it for download, send them a legal warning about copyright infringement. [:'(]



kaleun -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/25/2004 6:50:45 PM)

Zoomie: This is really a grognard game. Never mind how we turn off the micromanagement, let's face it, that is the target market.
Do you really want people to spend the $$, buy the game, and then go off bad mouthing the game and Matrix, because it is not what they expected?
I would rather the game is clearly described as a grognard game, and let the word of mouth do the talking. Let people who buy it know what they are buying, IMHO



Grotius -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/25/2004 6:56:25 PM)

I expect that Matrix will sell the manual only with the game; that's pretty standard practice for a single-player computer game.

Yes, there is precedent for posting documentation for online games, electronics, and computer hardware free of charge. You can find a pretty detailed manual for Star Wars Galaxies or World of Warcraft on the official sites for those games, but the game owners also have a much stronger defense against piracy: the requirement that you pay a monthly fee to connect. With single-player games, though, it's a lot harder to control. How many times have I seen some teenager post "Oh, I lost my manual, could someone please scan it in and e-mail it to me?"



David Heath -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/25/2004 6:58:44 PM)

Hi Guys

Sorry the manual can only be sold with the game.



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/25/2004 7:14:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kaleun

Zoomie: This is really a grognard game. Never mind how we turn off the micromanagement, let's face it, that is the target market.
Do you really want people to spend the $$, buy the game, and then go off bad mouthing the game and Matrix, because it is not what they expected?
I would rather the game is clearly described as a grognard game, and let the word of mouth do the talking. Let people who buy it know what they are buying, IMHO


Is it a grognard game? Yes. And that will be it's INITIAL target audience. And that very well may be the projected financial break-even mark for the game. Most real grognards already know all about this game. And that sales target will be reached in a matter of WEEKS, maybe even within several DAYS, certainly within the first two months.

But what then? If the game design is such that it is flexible enough to allow the computer to adequately control much of what we grognards perfer to deal with ourselves, and yet remain very playable, then that fact will eventually get picked up by the mainstream gaming media and they will, in turn, impart that to their readership. That is when the real money-making sales could start coming in. And it typically takes a calendar quarter or two before you start to see reviews in mainstream media.

If done right, and the marketing support is there, the eventual non hardcore-grognard sales could eventually dwarf the hardcore sales.....



kaleun -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/25/2004 7:30:23 PM)

quote:

the eventual non hardcore-grognard sales could eventually dwarf the hardcore sales.....


Amen to that.



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