RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (Full Version)

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Knavey -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/25/2004 10:43:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

The manual without the game in front of you will cause more confusion then it is worth. It is overly detailed and without seeing how things fit together in front of you, you will just get frustrated.


No...actually it wouldn't. WitP is based on UV, and there are still plenty of rules in the UV manual that I have to revisit (its printed out on the desk beside me). If you think the WitP manual is "overly detailed" you are kidding yourself about some of the tech manuals that people have to wade through in todays society. A couple hundred pages of rules to learn about a game I want to play will be a cake walk.

The better argument is about scaring off the non-grogs, but that is pretty weak also. Most gamers that know about WitP have already made up their mind about purchasing. Since it won't be in stores, you will never get the Halflife/Quake breakers that are just perusing the isles looking to drop $70. The only way this game is going to sell is by word of mouth from those of us who buy it.

As for the copyright argument, very weak also. Sure its their game and they can do anything they want with it. But if I want a manual on a valve operator in the power plant that I work at, I go to the company's website and download it. If I want a manual for a pump, I go to the company's website and download it. Get the picture? Most company's realize that no longer should you have to wait on information...it is within their power to give it to you via downloads. Matrix is already doing this with the game. Its not going to hurt them in anyway by putting the manual up for perusal.



Mr.Frag -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/25/2004 11:11:52 PM)

quote:

But if I want a manual on a valve operator in the power plant that I work at, I go to the company's website and download it. If I want a manual for a pump, I go to the company's website and download it. Get the picture? Most company's realize that no longer should you have to wait on information...it is within their power to give it to you via downloads.


This is not a support document.

Based on copywrite laws, they mush show they took reasonable care to not dump it into the public domain. Once it is out there, it is very difficult to make a case.



Knavey -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/25/2004 11:16:07 PM)

So you are saying that I could play WitP without the support of manual?



Mr.Frag -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/25/2004 11:23:39 PM)

quote:

So you are saying that I could play WitP without the support of manual?


Yes



jhdeerslayer -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/25/2004 11:23:47 PM)

Patience is a virgin remember. [:'(]



Knavey -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/25/2004 11:30:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

So you are saying that I could play WitP without the support of manual?


Yes


You have more faith in me than I do. [:D]



Mr.Frag -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/25/2004 11:33:38 PM)

quote:

You have more faith in me than I do.


An infinite number of monkeys pounding away on typewriters will eventually produce something [:D]



Knavey -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/25/2004 11:42:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

You have more faith in me than I do.


An infinite number of monkeys pounding away on typewriters will eventually produce something [:D]


Do they still make typewriters?

[image]local://upfiles/7595/Zx701368696.jpg[/image]



MadDawg -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/25/2004 11:44:09 PM)

Zoom, that would be great for the guys who designed it, but to be honest unfortunately your average 'Battlefield 1942' style game player will never be interested in such a game unless you take it 3D, remove the hexes and turn it into some kinda of RTS. Your average gamer (who has a 46% chance of being female btw) just doesnt want to sit through a 200 odd page manual and worry about commanding thousands of planes, ships and troops at hundreds of bases. Thats why you find most mainstream RTS games actually come with a unit limit...not for hardware reasons.

The good news though is that the people out there making these style of games realise this and are not interested in attracting such gamers (hence the higher price tag) yet they can still can make a living out of it in the process, thus giving the wargame fans out there more and more of the same. [;)]

Dawg



Knavey -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/25/2004 11:44:56 PM)

http://user.tninet.se/~ecf599g/aardasnails/java/Monkey/webpages/

Oh and some more monkey stuff...

Wait a minute...are you saying that a MONKEY could play WitP? I might be able to win that one.



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/26/2004 12:25:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadDawg

Zoom, that would be great for the guys who designed it, but to be honest unfortunately your average 'Battlefield 1942' style game player will never be interested in such a game unless you take it 3D, remove the hexes and turn it into some kinda of RTS. Your average gamer (who has a 46% chance of being female btw) just doesnt want to sit through a 200 odd page manual and worry about commanding thousands of planes, ships and troops at hundreds of bases. Thats why you find most mainstream RTS games actually come with a unit limit...not for hardware reasons.

The good news though is that the people out there making these style of games realise this and are not interested in attracting such gamers (hence the higher price tag) yet they can still can make a living out of it in the process, thus giving the wargame fans out there more and more of the same. [;)]

Dawg



Think there is a goodly number of 'in-betweeners". Folks that will occassionaly pick up a turn based WG for a change of pace just as I will pick up a good RTS game for the same reason. I call them, the casual wargamer. The type of player that will play a CivII type game.

And bottom line, a game manual, is NOT the same thing as support documentation for off the shelf consumer software like MSOffice. It is considered by the developers as part of their intellectual property and is probably under as tight a set of version control procedures as the codebase is. Forget EVER seeing a publically released copy of any game manual, ala the Oracle or IBM support sites... Just not gonna ever happen.



mjk428 -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/26/2004 12:32:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

Forget EVER seeing a publically released copy of any game manual, ala the Oracle or IBM support sites... Just not gonna ever happen.


Sorry, there are plenty of companies that make their game manuals available for download. Matrix doesn't want to - that's fine. They may even have a unique legal reason for it; but it's not universal.

For Example:

http://microsoftgamesinsider.com/pcmanual.htm?c00=1



MadDawg -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/26/2004 12:36:27 AM)

Oh yeah, Id say there are a few whom may be converted, just not the core FPS crowd (even though I play them myself). [:)]

Actually I think that this is where the higher price tag will hurt to be honest. I dont mind paying it as most of you dont becuase the content in the game justifies it, but I can see that many out there sitting on the fence might not be willing to pay the extra over thier usualy game prices, especially without a demo, just to see if this is their sort of game.

As for the manual, I dont think Ive ever seen one for download before (though Im sure they are out there) and I dont expect to see one now due to the bandwidth usage that would be used, etc as its really not necessary here. Generally they arent offered for download due to piracy, though in this case anyone who does pirate the game will also get the manual unfortunately...thats the down side of PDF's I guess. Without the manual I dont think anyone would be able to play this game properly.

Dawg



kaleun -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/26/2004 12:39:12 AM)

Actually by now this is quite irrelevant. We will all have our copy within the next 5-6 days.[:)]



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/26/2004 12:48:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadDawg

Oh yeah, Id say there are a few whom may be converted, just not the core FPS crowd (even though I play them myself). [:)]

Actually I think that this is where the higher price tag will hurt to be honest. I dont mind paying it as most of you dont becuase the content in the game justifies it, but I can see that many out there sitting on the fence might not be willing to pay the extra over thier usualy game prices, especially without a demo, just to see if this is their sort of game.

As for the manual, I dont think Ive ever seen one for download before (though Im sure they are out there) but I dont expect to see one now due to the bandwidth usage that would be used, etc as its really not necessary here. Generally they arent offered for download due to piracy, though in this case anyone who does pirate the game will also get the manual unfortunately...thats the down side of PDF's I guess. Without the manual I dont think anyone would be able to play this game properly.

Dawg


Yea, that's a good point. Matrix doesn't ever seem to drop the price of games after a while, whereas a lot of titles will hit the $9.95 bargain bin after 6-12 month span. If 2X3/Matrix ever wanted some new converts, it's high time to start selling UV for $10-20 now and see if some folks could be enticed into genre. But agree, at $70, this game is pricier than even the most eagerly anticpated FPS or sports games out there, and will undoubtedly scare off almost all of them.

I image that 90% of grognard public that will buy this game will do so in the first month or two, after that it will be just a trickle. I would think that say, by the Holiday season that they should consider dropping it to $29.95 or even $19.95(as well as other popular Matrix titles that are getting long in the tooth) and see what happens??? Who knows, if the thing got into about 2-3,000 more stockings for Christmas at that price than it otherwise might have, the whole genre might get some kind of boost.....



kaleun -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/26/2004 12:52:32 AM)

It would also need some kind of exposure; I really don't know how that would be achieved without an expensive publicity stint, or putting it out on stores.
Perhaps a deal with amazon, where they would pitch it to people who buy WWII books?
Then again, people who buy those books are probably perusing this forum as we speak (type)



worr -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/26/2004 4:06:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Knavey

Do they still make typewriters?


Touché!

But once again, the manual does cost money to manufacture, and is often subcontracted in this industry. It deserves its due all in itself. If not for the writing, then the editing, and proofing, for there is a great deal of work that goes into one.

Worr, out



Vincenzo_Beretta -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/26/2004 3:34:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
An infinite number of monkeys pounding away on typewriters will eventually produce something [:D]


Actually, the Internet disproved this once for all [:D]



freeboy -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/26/2004 3:37:30 PM)

Infinate tornadoes through infanate junkyards for 747 was my fav version of this...



Von Rom -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/26/2004 5:03:24 PM)

Hi [:)]

I know how anxious many of you are to have the game.

However, no company that makes computer games, as far as I am aware of, ever freely posts the manual separately from the game itself. Matrix and 2By3 have spent years developing WiTP. I think all this hard work should be respected.

As far as WiTP being priced at $70.00: Unlike the run-of-the-mill FPS, this is the only game of its type on the market. While most games will be completed and then discarded after one month, this game will be going strong for many, many years to come. . .

Matrix and 2By3 support has been superb. They are the only people making games of this type and should be supported for their efforts.

And remember: more games of this type are still being planned - UV-Med anyone?

Cheers!



52nd Lowland -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/26/2004 5:22:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

Hi [:)]

I know how anxious many of you are to have the game.

However, no company that makes computer games, as far as I am aware of, ever freely posts the manual separately from the game itself. Matrix and 2By3 have spent years developing WiTP. I think all this hard work should be respected.

As far as WiTP being priced at $70.00: Unlike the run-of-the-mill FPS, this is the only game of its type on the market. While most games will be completed and then discarded after one month, this game will be going strong for many, many years to come. . .

Matrix and 2By3 support has been superb. They are the only people making games of this type and should be supported for their efforts.

And remember: more games of this type are still being planned - UV-Med anyone?

Cheers!

Yep i think the thread is just down to the eagerness of us all to get WitP and start playing the game.Hopefully not long now [:)]



ltfightr -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/26/2004 5:25:36 PM)

This thread is all about the wait[:@][:@][:@] Especially now that some of you lucky few have it.[8D]



MadDawg -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/27/2004 3:20:11 AM)

Zoom, I think it would be a very good idea to reduce the price of UV as you suggested. At the least it will pull in people who have been sitting on the fence and at best it will pull in new comers to the genre who may then be interested in taking the step to WITP.

Von Rom, dont get me wrong, I actually think that this price is one wargamers will be happy to pay as there has been a large amount of work put into WITP. I do suspect that it will put off average gamers though who might normally give it a go to see if it is of interest to them...it will be a hard choice for a gamer to choose between, say, Doom 3 at a regular price or WITP at the higher price.

The key though, and the thought I suspect it behind the pricing, is that these gamers will probably not be all that interested in WITP in the first place, so as its a limited market (reasonably hard core wargamers) the price was risen to compensate.

Dawg



Von Rom -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/27/2004 3:31:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadDawg

Zoom, I think it would be a very good idea to reduce the price of UV as you suggested. At the least it will pull in people who have been sitting on the fence and at best it will pull in new comers to the genre who may then be interested in taking the step to WITP.

Von Rom, dont get me wrong, I actually think that this price is one wargamers will be happy to pay as there has been a large amount of work put into WITP. I do suspect that it will put off average gamers though who might normally give it a go to see if it is of interest to them...it will be a hard choice for a gamer to choose between, say, Doom 3 at a regular price or WITP at the higher price.

The key though, and the thought I suspect it behind the pricing, is that these gamers will probably not be all that interested in WITP in the first place, so as its a limited market (reasonably hard core wargamers) the price was risen to compensate.

Dawg


I certainly understand your point of view and what you say has a great deal of merit. [:)]

Many of us have played UV, so we have a fair idea of what to expect in WiTP.

This is why I think UV is far from dead, as it would make a perfect primer for the average gamer who wants to get his feet wet with this type of game, without being overwhelmed by WiTP. The gamer buys UV, then later steps up to WiTP.

Plus UV makes a good PBEM game.

So if UV gets any further patches in the future, then I am sure the extra effort won't be wasted [:)]

Cheers!



MadDawg -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/27/2004 3:39:07 AM)

Indeed, I think that UV makes a nice stepping stone for new players [:)]. It would be nice to actually see some of the improvements taken from WITP to UV for this reason, such as the improved FOW, but I suspect that this may be hoping for a little much (the code is obviously very modified).

Dawg



ATENTOKO -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/27/2004 11:38:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ltfightr

This thread is all about the wait[:@][:@][:@] Especially now that some of you lucky few have it.[8D]

YES THATS THE QUESTION. I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE SOMETIHNG TO BOTE.....[:@][:@][:@]
OK GOOD DONE FRINDS



UncleBuck -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/29/2004 11:41:18 PM)

I am just so glad that I am nto the only one out there that wanted more troops, armor or what not in all those RTS games, and thought that the time frame that they ran was just to short.



Greco, Thomas A -> RE: Why not put the manual up for download? (6/30/2004 3:09:05 AM)

Well I guess that's that. As to my 6/30 post with the same question; to quote Emily La Tella: "never mind."



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