RE: Game crash (Full Version)

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Mr.Frag -> RE: Game crash (6/28/2004 10:23:32 PM)

quote:

More to the point, is or is not DirectX 9.0c required for satisfactory operation of WitP, or will 9.0b get it done?


Aye

quote:

OK, I'll bite. So how did you install SP2 if it hasn't been released yet? Perhaps you are a universal beta tester.


When you work for ... you tend to have to be beyond bleeding edge. RC2's been out for quite a while now. Feel free to dive in.



Topper -> RE: Game crash (6/29/2004 12:51:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

More to the point, is or is not DirectX 9.0c required for satisfactory operation of WitP, or will 9.0b get it done?


Aye



I am now fairly confused:
1. I already have DX9.0b - Scenario 1 still crashes.
2. If this is a system problem, how come Scenario 3 runs OK?

Sorry, but to this boy it seems like a bug, not a driver/DX problem. Is there a fix coming or not?



Tophat -> RE: Game crash (6/29/2004 1:15:41 AM)

Wonderful,
I'm running WinME and see "NO" download for directX 9.0c or a 9.2??? Is directX9.0b going to work?
If anyone has a "direct link' for this,not a support pak update for XP users,please post it!
Or if I can pull the mythical directX 9.0c download out of the support pak for WinXp without muckingup my winMe machine.........feel free to post a scathingly derogatory reply!! I care not as long as it gets this darn game running!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Mr.Frag -> RE: Game crash (6/29/2004 1:35:48 AM)

quote:

1. I already have DX9.0b - Scenario 1 still crashes.


You know if it is sound related (dx/driver) by renaming your sound directory to something else like oldsound and the problem goes away (problem #1). This happens in any scenario.

Scenario #1 ONLY crashes are completely unrelated. They happen when selecting a specific ship to view it within the game and are related to artwork not lining up with ships. (problem #2)

This came about due to new artwork coming in that renumbered everything and the tutorial scenario files not being updated to reflect the new numbers (focus was on the *real* scenarios). It happens to people (or so it would seem from the tester cross section) who have non-ATI video cards. Scenario #1 is a copy of #6 with some extra stuff thrown in to play with. You can verify this by loading scenario #6 (Marianas) and clicking on the same ship there and not crashing. Basically, certain types of video cards get annoyed when told to display nothing. Others don't care and simply display a blank picture.

To correct, you can either have some fun with the editor and update the bit map: value in the classes table (just remember to save to a slot in the user designed area), or avoid clicking on individual ships which brings up the picture or:


If you are a do-it-yourself'er, in the Scene directory:

rename wpc001.dat to wpc001.dat.bak (keep a copy in case you need for patch)
copy wpc006.dat to wpc001.dat

Problem fixed. (Unofficially) [;)]



Mr.Frag -> RE: Game crash (6/29/2004 1:38:21 AM)

quote:

I'm running WinME and see "NO" download for directX 9.0c or a 9.2??? Is directX9.0b going to work?


Yep, works fine. I was talking to someone running XP.



Topper -> RE: Game crash (6/29/2004 1:52:20 AM)

Thank you Mr. Frag. That explanation makes sense re: scenario 1.

BTW, I have an ATI 9800 Pro, so the video/art issue is not just non-ATI. I will apply your advice for a work-around until the official.

Topper



Mr.Frag -> RE: Game crash (6/29/2004 1:54:52 AM)

quote:

BTW, I have an ATI 9800 Pro, so the video/art issue is not just non-ATI. I will apply your advice for a work-around until the official.


Hmm, amusing ... my 9800XT doesn't do it. I guess there was more to the change between the pro and the xt then ATI let on [:D]



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Game crash (6/29/2004 6:36:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

1. I already have DX9.0b - Scenario 1 still crashes.


You know if it is sound related (dx/driver) by renaming your sound directory to something else like oldsound and the problem goes away (problem #1). This happens in any scenario.

Scenario #1 ONLY crashes are completely unrelated. They happen when selecting a specific ship to view it within the game and are related to artwork not lining up with ships. (problem #2)

This came about due to new artwork coming in that renumbered everything and the tutorial scenario files not being updated to reflect the new numbers (focus was on the *real* scenarios). It happens to people (or so it would seem from the tester cross section) who have non-ATI video cards. Scenario #1 is a copy of #6 with some extra stuff thrown in to play with. You can verify this by loading scenario #6 (Marianas) and clicking on the same ship there and not crashing. Basically, certain types of video cards get annoyed when told to display nothing. Others don't care and simply display a blank picture.

To correct, you can either have some fun with the editor and update the bit map: value in the classes table (just remember to save to a slot in the user designed area), or avoid clicking on individual ships which brings up the picture or:


If you are a do-it-yourself'er, in the Scene directory:

rename wpc001.dat to wpc001.dat.bak (keep a copy in case you need for patch)
copy wpc006.dat to wpc001.dat

Problem fixed. (Unofficially) [;)]



Wow. Don't know what to think of this stuff.....

Glad I've got VisualStudio on my machine. When games crash I can at least bring up a debug session and look at the assembler code at the trap point. At least I'll know where the trap happens....driver, directX library, or application code.....



Mr.Frag -> RE: Game crash (6/29/2004 6:54:06 AM)

I rather doubt all the debugging tools in the world are going to tell you that a bit map pointer in a data file happens to be pointing to the wrong bit map. It's not a code problem, it's a data problem. Copy the file and get on with life.



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Game crash (6/29/2004 7:34:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

I rather doubt all the debugging tools in the world are going to tell you that a bit map pointer in a data file happens to be pointing to the wrong bit map. It's not a code problem, it's a data problem. Copy the file and get on with life.


Well when traps occur they occur at a specific location and that location is not too hard to figure out, in general, where it is at. Of course the why it caused the break where it did is a different story. But bottom line, a missing file should not cause a hard trap, ever, but generate, at least, a diagnostic message indicating a data problem. Any code that attempts any sort of an I/O either returns a boolean value or a result code and all such calls should trap for failure and gracefully exit with a descriptive diagnostic message, not just fall over in a hard trap with a stack trace....



Topper -> RE: Game crash (6/29/2004 8:03:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

BTW, I have an ATI 9800 Pro, so the video/art issue is not just non-ATI. I will apply your advice for a work-around until the official.


Hmm, amusing ... my 9800XT doesn't do it. I guess there was more to the change between the pro and the xt then ATI let on [:D]


Heh heh. Not surprising. Still, I find this to be a sweet card, with very few vices. I applied your workaround for Scenario 1 and all is well. Thanks again.



Speedysteve -> RE: Game crash (6/30/2004 3:00:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

It may run, but it will be a pretty painful on a 233MHz machine. There is slow, and then there is really slow and then there is painful ...

Can you list any games you bought recently and installed? A fair number include the DirectX installation code on the CD so you might already have it.


I guessed it would be slow. But if it works i'm buying [:)]

Um as for recent games - I haven't purchased many (partly coz many of them wouldn't run on my hunk of junk [;)]). I bought Squad Assault a little while ago. Other one's I can think of in the past year - Star Wars Jedi Academy, American Conquest.

Does DX 9 come on the WiTP CD? I would hope so or i'm buggered!

Regards,

Steven



Mr.Frag -> RE: Game crash (6/30/2004 4:06:37 PM)

quote:

Star Wars Jedi Academy


SW:JA will have upgraded you to DX 9 already. You are good! [;)]



Speedysteve -> RE: Game crash (6/30/2004 4:39:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

Star Wars Jedi Academy


SW:JA will have upgraded you to DX 9 already. You are good! [;)]


Woooohoooooooo. Now I just gotta wait for it to be released then mail order here I come.

Does it come on the CD though out of interest?



Mr.Frag -> RE: Game crash (6/30/2004 4:51:01 PM)

quote:

Does it come on the CD though out of interest?


Yes, you can order a cd. If you want a boxed version, you are going to have to wait a bit longer though.



Speedysteve -> RE: Game crash (6/30/2004 5:04:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

Does it come on the CD though out of interest?


Yes, you can order a cd. If you want a boxed version, you are going to have to wait a bit longer though.


Does this mean they are going to release a CD in a basic case and then release a full box version in several weeks time? Is the version that ships going to have the ASW balanced out (hence will it be a V1.01 for example).

Thanks Mr Frag.

Steven



Erik Rutins -> RE: Game crash (6/30/2004 5:12:23 PM)

Gentlemen,

First, all reported problems are being worked on. What has been posted here are workaround suggestions and the usual prudent measures until fixes are available. Not all sound-related problems arise from the same issue, so updating to the latest DirectX and drivers (no need to go for the unreleased SP2, for goodness sakes) is generally a good thing for most games.

Renaming the sound directory is an alternative if driver updates don't help. Trying scenarios other than #1 is another thing to test.

Bottom line is that any problems will be fixed, but we're working to get anyone with a sound or other issue up and running with the released version until a fix is released.

Zoomie, much as you may be a fantastic programmer and able to do this in half the time we can and better, it's really not helpful for you to try to deconstruct and kibbitz from the sidelines when you've never actually (to my knowledge) created a computer game or even looked through WitP's design and code. If you want to discuss your thoughts on how we might better design wargames, feel free in the general discussion or the WitP general forum, but interjecting on threads intended to provide tech support help to customers is not helpful at all.

Regards,

- Erik



mavraam -> RE: Game crash (6/30/2004 5:13:44 PM)

quote:

DirectX.....gotta a LUV IT!!!! Jeez....


You may hate directX BUT....

Without it we'd have about 1% of the games we do today. And
not just the video games, every strategy game with a scrolling map
would be next to impossible to run directly in Windows.

Its what allows a PC running Windows to generically use 1000's of
different hardware devices without being bogged down but the OS.

Necessary Evil.

Plus, its all but impossible to do anything with sound through regular
Windows drivers.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Game crash (6/30/2004 5:14:04 PM)

Speedy,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy
Does this mean they are going to release a CD in a basic case and then release a full box version in several weeks time? Is the version that ships going to have the ASW balanced out (hence will it be a V1.01 for example).


WitP will be available as only a direct digital download until August, when a DVD-case option will become available as well. We're waiting for digital river to catch up on this before offering the option. There's no plan to release a cardboard box version with updates, though we will no doubt update the downloadable version at some point in the future as fixes are available.

Regards,

- Erik



Speedysteve -> RE: Game crash (6/30/2004 6:32:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Speedy,

WitP will be available as only a direct digital download until August, when a DVD-case option will become available as well. We're waiting for digital river to catch up on this before offering the option. There's no plan to release a cardboard box version with updates, though we will no doubt update the downloadable version at some point in the future as fixes are available.

Regards,

- Erik


Hi Eric,

Thanks for the reply. Shame i'll have to wait until August for this baby. Annoying that I had Broadband a couple of months ago but now i've moved and don't have Internet. Such is life. I've been waiting for many many years for a game like this and I guess another month isn't too bad in perspective. Thanks again.

Weren't there hard cased copies available at Origins though?

Regards,

Steven



Erik Rutins -> RE: Game crash (6/30/2004 7:54:00 PM)

Speedy,

Yes, but that was through a more expensive and time-intensive method that we can only do for smaller numbers or our staff would be doing nothing else (we literally duplicated, printed, sorted and packed those ourselves before the convention just to get them in time for the customers coming to Origins). We couldn't handle a full release that way. We have to wait for full integration with the online store, scheduled for August 1st, before we can make DVD case copies a reality for the larger release.

Regards,

- Erik



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Game crash (6/30/2004 9:14:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Gentlemen,

First, all reported problems are being worked on. What has been posted here are workaround suggestions and the usual prudent measures until fixes are available. Not all sound-related problems arise from the same issue, so updating to the latest DirectX and drivers (no need to go for the unreleased SP2, for goodness sakes) is generally a good thing for most games.

Renaming the sound directory is an alternative if driver updates don't help. Trying scenarios other than #1 is another thing to test.

Bottom line is that any problems will be fixed, but we're working to get anyone with a sound or other issue up and running with the released version until a fix is released.

Zoomie, much as you may be a fantastic programmer and able to do this in half the time we can and better, it's really not helpful for you to try to deconstruct and kibbitz from the sidelines when you've never actually (to my knowledge) created a computer game or even looked through WitP's design and code. If you want to discuss your thoughts on how we might better design wargames, feel free in the general discussion or the WitP general forum, but interjecting on threads intended to provide tech support help to customers is not helpful at all.

Regards,

- Erik


True I don't have the code to WitP, but I can tell a lot about how it was coded from the discussions. The last title I have the source code to is Matrix version of PACWAR. Got that several years ago.

I actually HAVE written several "wargames" and battlefield simulation for the DOD over the years, so yes, I do have quite a lot of experience in this area. And as for posting my design thoughts on the general forum, I do that all the time. Not that anyone listens. And yes, I intend to start my own design group after I get my kids through college and off the dole. In fact, I am laying the toolkit foundations already and centering up on some base architecture ideas..

In addition to that, I keep seeing, occassionaly, references to a developers forum? Where is that? I occasionally post some design ideas in hopes that some real insider programmer types could tell me whether or not that's been tried or why it might work or would be a totally useless venture, but I never really get much response at all.

I would love for there to be a technical development forum for designers and programmers of all ilks to discuss wargaming specific technical details with people who do it for a living. That way current developers could give technical reasons why some things are done in a certain way, but seem bizzare to professinals outside the business. And perhaps the insiders pick up ideas from outsiders who exist in a different paradigm and don't have all the historical baggage the insiders do and for that matter, vis-versa....



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Game crash (6/30/2004 9:21:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mavraam

quote:

DirectX.....gotta a LUV IT!!!! Jeez....


You may hate directX BUT....

Without it we'd have about 1% of the games we do today. And
not just the video games, every strategy game with a scrolling map
would be next to impossible to run directly in Windows.

Its what allows a PC running Windows to generically use 1000's of
different hardware devices without being bogged down but the OS.

Necessary Evil.

Plus, its all but impossible to do anything with sound through regular
Windows drivers.



True 99% of todays use, and NEED DirectX or OpenGL capabilities. I prefer OpenGL for a lot of reasons. However, that DOES NOT include turn based wargames.

I have written very large simulations for DOD whose presentation clients ran on very low quality PCs (Pentium 90's and such) that used virtual windows with dimensions many times that of the monitor resolution and have never had a scrolling problem with them. And as for sound, most turn based wargames play .wav files and may have an mp3 or such running in the background (which most eventually shut off). The base WIN32 API is fine for that stuff.



bradfordkay -> RE: Game crash (7/1/2004 11:00:37 AM)

Zoomie, Erik had a point. Pretty soon a lot of people are going to be looking at the bugs forum trying to figure out how to fix the problems they will have. Cluttering up a thread that is a genuine request for help with a discussion on why DirectX shouldn't have been used is a waste of a valuable forum. This portion of the forum should be for genuine help, not interminable arguments.



Marc von Martial -> RE: Game crash (7/1/2004 1:22:18 PM)

Canīt wait untill your first game is out ZOOMIE, untill then, well , I donīt hold my breath.

As from now on I would like to prefer support threads to be just that, for support and not discussions about how just how killer cool you are. Thanks alot.



Speedysteve -> RE: Game crash (7/1/2004 2:42:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Speedy,

Yes, but that was through a more expensive and time-intensive method that we can only do for smaller numbers or our staff would be doing nothing else (we literally duplicated, printed, sorted and packed those ourselves before the convention just to get them in time for the customers coming to Origins). We couldn't handle a full release that way. We have to wait for full integration with the online store, scheduled for August 1st, before we can make DVD case copies a reality for the larger release.

Regards,

- Erik


Thanks for your insight Erik. Roll on 1st August [:)]

Regards,

Steven



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Game crash (7/1/2004 6:25:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

Canīt wait untill your first game is out ZOOMIE, untill then, well , I donīt hold my breath.

As from now on I would like to prefer support threads to be just that, for support and not discussions about how just how killer cool you are. Thanks alot.


Well, I'm desparately trying to learn some things about this business, about the development aspects, about why things are done in a certain way so I can avoid any well known pitfalls, know what's been tried before and failed, so I don't repeat past mistakes. And I get damned few answers from 2X3, Matrix or most anyone else.

For instance:

1) I have yet to get a straight answer from a Matrix developer as to why DirectX API calls are needed for turn based wargames that only play .wav files, and intro movie, and a background song? I know what DirectX is and am somewhat familiar with it's API and its history.

2) Why does no one at Matrix or its partners (to my knowledge) use Object Oriented design for turn based wargame development?

3) Why do Matrix and partner developers opt for home-grown graphics primatives rather than industry standard C++ GUI toolkits for standard UI game elements?

4) Why do so many Matrix and partner developers opt for error prone fixed-array memory data-models with so much hard-coding of data specifics instead of more modern, stable, STL-style dynamic container methods for turn based wargames?

5) Why has no one opted to use structured disk file systems like RDBMS's for managing game data?

And then other develop questions I have asked repeatedly that include:

1) What art/imaging tools do developers prefer for creating game graphics like bitmaps, jpegs, tiffs and such.

2) What release and code management tools do Matrix and partner developers use to manage code (Visual SourceSafe, CVS, etc....??)

I keep asking these questions but get almost NO answers from anyone. I've asked for a developers forum, seen some mention of it, but have never found one, so I keep asking here. Stuff gets buried in a HURRY on the general forum, and bores the hell out of the general gaming community, so ask up here in the "Technical Support" area because, afterall, I inquiring about some very "technical" type support, and the "techincal" people at Matrix tend to hang out here, not there. I've tried the general Matrix tech support forum as well with even less results.

I'm sure there are answers to the above. I'm sure Matrix and their partner developers have reasons for doing a lot of what they do, some probably valid, some probably not and knowing those things, potential new game authors might be able to make some fundemental decisions up front and avoid some of the pitfalls. If I get short tempered at times, it is because I'm frustrated at not getting any answers at all, just vague, non-responsive stuff with no real useful information.

And if I come off seeming like some sort of braggart blow-hard, know-it-all, that's not the intent at all. I'm actually a "know-nothing" in this area. I'm merely trying to establish the point that I'm not some hobbyist that happened to pick up a C or Java for Dummies book and tried to learn how to program, but an experienced, professional software developer with decades of real-world programming and software management experience, that has tried to stay as current as possible in the profession, that would love the opportunity to try my hand at doing this stuff for real some time soon. But I feel like I'm flying blind and have no idea how to really start and don't want to waste my time on methodologies that might be great for the custom vertical market software business but have no relevance to this business.

But enough, I suppose. I'll let you people get on with your work. I know you're all busy as hell. Hopefully I'll eventually run across a real game programmer some day that will actually be willing to talk, at length, about the technical stuff.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Game crash (7/1/2004 6:30:01 PM)

Zoomie,

There's nothing wrong with asking questions, but to be blunt, your timing stinks. Try again once we're through this convention + three simultaneous releases period and you'll probably have better luck. With that said, there are very few folks who are interested in discussing their design/code if it starts with the premise that they're probably doing things wrong. It's a human reaction. You'll attract more flies with honey and such discussions are also better done by e-mail in general. Your thought about a technical/development forum is not a bad one, but again we'll have to revisit it when we have time. We have a private one for our development teams, but nothing public.

Regards,

- Erik



ZOOMIE1980 -> RE: Game crash (7/1/2004 6:54:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Zoomie,

There's nothing wrong with asking questions, but to be blunt, your timing stinks. Try again once we're through this convention + three simultaneous releases period and you'll probably have better luck. With that said, there are very few folks who are interested in discussing their design/code if it starts with the premise that they're probably doing things wrong. It's a human reaction. You'll attract more flies with honey and such discussions are also better done by e-mail in general. Your thought about a technical/development forum is not a bad one, but again we'll have to revisit it when we have time. We have a private one for our development teams, but nothing public.

Regards,

- Erik


Agreed, the timing is probably VERY bad. And I don't necessarily believe their coding is bad or even their design is bad. It would be very bad style and technique in my world, for sure, but it may be absolutely necessary in yours. I don't know. But I would like to know. And I'm more looking for why some of my ideas would be either bad, or just that no one has tried them before and can't risk or spare the time on the learning curve.

And you DO have a technical development forum, it's just private. That's fine and well. Maybe e-mail is the best route once things ever settle down......



Marc von Martial -> RE: Game crash (7/1/2004 7:46:22 PM)

If you want to discuss game development then youīre better of at the various community boards and game developer websites such as the GAMA developer site called Gamasutra, a game support / community forum is a bad place for it.



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