Combat Summary oddity and playback? (Full Version)

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MadDawg -> Combat Summary oddity and playback? (7/3/2004 9:19:24 AM)

Hi All,

Another couple of questions...[:)]

I was just watching an air to air battle in which I had 7 Nells attacking a base. Whilst watching it I saw 2 shot down by aircraft and none lost to flak, yet the end of combat report said that I had lost 5. Now, I realise that there is some Fog of War in play here for pilots overestimating kills, etc, but why does the actual combat not corrospond to the visual playback? I would think that these two should both show the same results, even if that result is incorrect?

Secondly, do both players see exactly the same playback? If so, is there any was I can see my actual looses for my side in a particular air to air engagement without the other players fog of war applied? I know that there is an overall summary but in the larger campaigns this is no help to calculate losses in a particular battle. It seems a little odd that I am having FOW applied to the looses I take...surely my guys can add up the difference between the planes that left and those that returned to give me an actual amount lost during the battle? [:)]

Dawg



Caltone -> RE: Combat Summary oddity and playback? (7/3/2004 9:24:49 AM)

Both players watch the same replay so there's FOW in it. Same system in place for games vs AI. Just have to imagine you're 1000's of miles from this battle and reports are going to have some innaccuracies.

Just keep any eye on the airgroups involved each turn and of course the summaries in the intelligence reports like you mentioned.



MadDawg -> RE: Combat Summary oddity and playback? (7/3/2004 9:38:49 AM)

Understood and that was acceptable enough in UV, but in the larger campaigns in WITP it is now next to impossibe to track air to air losses for each battle with any sort of accuracy [:)].

I was really hoping that in WITP both players would actually watch different combat playbacks to be honest. Apart from the above reason its also unfortunate that I always know when the other side has spotted one of my task forces in one manner or another, allowing me to break off an attack I may otherwise procees with. I wouldnt think it would be too complex to have each side viewing a unique playback...

Dawg



Xargun -> RE: Combat Summary oddity and playback? (7/3/2004 9:51:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadDawg

Understood and that was acceptable enough in UV, but in the larger campaigns in WITP it is now next to impossibe to track air to air losses for each battle with any sort of accuracy [:)].

I was really hoping that in WITP both players would actually watch different combat playbacks to be honest. Apart from the above reason its also unfortunate that I always know when the other side has spotted one of my task forces in one manner or another, allowing me to break off an attack I may otherwise procees with. I wouldnt think it would be too complex to have each side viewing a unique playback...

Dawg


You must remember that any large warship has the ability to detect radio signals from nearby sources - expecially aircraft thousands of feet in the air... When you PBY sees my IJN Fleet and radios back in, I may not know what he says, but I know someone just transmitted nearby and can react accordingly.. Plus your CAP may spot the plane and possibly even shoot it down...

Xargun



MadDawg -> RE: Combat Summary oddity and playback? (7/3/2004 10:19:04 AM)

True, but not all ships, such as AP's, would necessarily have the ability or know how to do so. I certainly dont mind it being a possability but it would be nice if it wasnt a certainty just to add another element to the FOW, particually as some subs now have search aircraft and instantly give away their positions when they do their job. I guess its just something that has kinda bugged me since UV I was hoping would change [:)].

Anyways, anyone have any thoughts on my first question or have noticed it happening themselves? I am kinda wondering if its a little bug as Ive seen it a few times now.

Dawg



Arnir -> RE: Combat Summary oddity and playback? (7/3/2004 10:31:46 AM)

I don't know the answer to the first question, but I wonder if it represents aircraft that were damaged, etc. and lost on the return trip?



MadDawg -> RE: Combat Summary oddity and playback? (7/3/2004 10:39:05 AM)

Possibly! [:)]

If so I think this is different from UV though, as Im pretty sure the combat playback and report use to show the same result.

Dawg



Charles2222 -> RE: Combat Summary oddity and playback? (7/3/2004 6:21:53 PM)

I'n unfamiliar with UV, but I am familiar with PW and BTR. One small thign I don't get though, which is similar to this concern posted here. Let's say 3 Mohawks intercept my bombing run which has 30 Zeroes.

The 30 Zeroes shoot them all down, yet, as I've seen at least one time, the Mohawks keep attacking and the Zeroes keep defending, as though there are more aircraft to shoot down. Now, maybe the shown a/c are the only ones undamaged and that would account for this, but if it's a matter of there were 3 Mohawks at first, and then another 6 joined in later, why wouldn't the total of the Mohawks roll back to 6 again and not still show zero? It may be a small matter of the total of a/c not being correct from the start or a matter of the total not updatuing after the initial wave is eliminated. Any ideas?



Mr.Frag -> RE: Combat Summary oddity and playback? (7/3/2004 6:26:54 PM)

FoW ... They didn't really get shot down or they were shot down but are still attacking ... works both ways [;)]



Charles2222 -> RE: Combat Summary oddity and playback? (7/3/2004 7:24:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

FoW ... They didn't really get shot down or they were shot down but are still attacking ... works both ways [;)]


So this is to say that the total starting off were all absolutely correct (no FOW), and that there weren't any that joined into the battle? I recall all damaged a/c in BTR returned to base immediately (of course in this game they might appear to be damaged when they are not due to FOW).



MadDawg -> RE: Combat Summary oddity and playback? (7/4/2004 12:10:32 AM)

Frag, I think that answered Charles question but could you check out my first one above? [:)]

What I am seeing is the actual air to air combat 'movie' differing from the combat report given at the end of this battle. As I mentioned i counted 2 Nells shot down yet had 5 reported. Im UV I am pretty sure that these two things showed the same (albeit incorrect due to FOW) results, and Im wondering if this is a little ug of sorts?

As Ive seen it a few times I thought I should check as it seems a little odd....I may even have a PBEM containing this oddity here somewhere if it helps.

Dawg



Charles2222 -> RE: Combat Summary oddity and playback? (7/4/2004 4:27:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadDawg

Frag, I think that answered Charles question but could you check out my first one above? [:)]

What I am seeing is the actual air to air combat 'movie' differing from the combat report given at the end of this battle. As I mentioned i counted 2 Nells shot down yet had 5 reported. Im UV I am pretty sure that these two things showed the same (albeit incorrect due to FOW) results, and Im wondering if this is a little ug of sorts?

As Ive seen it a few times I thought I should check as it seems a little odd....I may even have a PBEM containing this oddity here somewhere if it helps.

Dawg


If there is in fact FOW during the combat, such that one allegedly destroyed came back for more, then what you're seeing is even more understandable but it makes me wonder if the inbattle report isn't accurate while the summary is. What am I guessing is a likely reason you're seeing your difference? Some damaged return for more battle, maybe numerous times, while others return to base. Only problem is many of them have damage serious enough they end up ditching enroute such that the final report might drive up the destruction figure. If that is so, it does make me wonder when those reports are compiled. Is it directly after the battle, when some of them haven't had enough time to reach base (such that it's still more of a prediction), or is it half a day later when all those returning had adequate time? IOW, a more hasty estimate or a more precise one.



VI66_slith -> RE: Combat Summary oddity and playback? (7/4/2004 5:19:39 AM)

I have had 3 fighters all get shot down to zero, and then while at 'zero' shoot down 6 bombers in playback, if FOW is in effect as has been stated here, thats fine. Now it has also been said I think, that the combat report is accurate, right? If so, then I would indeed know the numbers of enemy a/c shot down as its posted on the report. Does this sound correct? Or do the numbers on the report strictly state what the pilots see only?

Another question. I realize there is a +/- for ships reported sunk, my question is, does this, and the air losses reflect on the intel report accurately? If so why? Should I know in all cases which enemy ship(s) are sunk?

Thanks! [img]http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/u/usa.gif[/img][img]http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/u/karate.gif[/img]



MadDawg -> RE: Combat Summary oddity and playback? (7/4/2004 5:24:52 AM)

Just so we are all on the same page...[:)]

What I am seeing is the combat 'movie' showing aircraft shot down varying quite significantly from the battle report given *directly* after the air to air battle (NOT the in game report). For instance I just saw 30 kittyhawks attack 5 zeros. During the movie I counted 3 zeros shot down, yet the report given directly after the movie had finished told me I had 10 zeros shot down and 2 damaged!?

In UV I am pretty certain the combat movie and the battle report directly after it both showed the same (although errornous dur to FOW) results, so I am wondering why I am seeing such varied results here and if maybe it is a bug? If its not a bug, what is causing the variation between the actual movie and the report given at the end of the movie?


Charles, I am pretty certain that the in game aircraft loss screen is 100% accurate for both sides. I think some FOW would be great here when viewing the other sides losses if there is none applied already.

Dawg



Mr.Frag -> RE: Combat Summary oddity and playback? (7/4/2004 5:29:12 AM)

There is no relationship between the two FoW effects. Both are foggy [:D]

Uv's a whole different beast and due to various issues, you could not even get the same result twice.



MadDawg -> RE: Combat Summary oddity and playback? (7/4/2004 5:36:24 AM)

Hehe, okay, Im confused....[:)]

So, which is more correct then, the actual movie of air to air combat, or the battle summary of air to air losses given right after it? What is the reasoning to make these two directly related items so different?

Dawg



MadDawg -> RE: Combat Summary oddity and playback? (7/4/2004 6:05:55 AM)

For instance, below is the combat summary from the attack I mentioned above...

Day Air attack on Lae , at 54,87

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 6

Allied aircraft
Wirraway x 3
P-39D Airacobra x 32
P-40E Warhawk x 39
B-17C Fortress x 15

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 10 destroyed, 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
P-39D Airacobra: 3 damaged
P-40E Warhawk: 1 damaged
B-17C Fortress: 2 destroyed

....*but* watching the actual movie I only saw 3 of my zeros downed. What I am curious about is what is the reasoning as to why these two reports (the movie and the one above) vary so wildly? Is one more correct than the other? Ive always assumed that the movie is just a visual representation of that is reported in the combat summary, but is this not the case?

Thanks Frag! [:)]

Dawg



Mr.Frag -> RE: Combat Summary oddity and playback? (7/4/2004 6:16:07 AM)

Neither is correct [:D]

It's supposed to be that way. Nothing like keeping the other guy guessing [;)]



2Stepper -> RE: Combat Summary oddity and playback? (7/4/2004 6:29:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadDawg

Possibly! [:)]

If so I think this is different from UV though, as Im pretty sure the combat playback and report use to show the same result.

Dawg


Actually it's not. I've noted the slight discrepancies that you're talking about and I put them 100% on FOW. Because in UV, even those battles would differ because at the end of a battle you'd occasionally see some lucky Jap pilot splash a B26 or vice versa... Those were instances of planes leaving the combat area and getting nabbed by CAP.

The only thing I've noted so far is FOW affecting the combat animation... I've seen P35's for example dropped to ZERO in number and still shooting at Jap planes... It's odd, and frankly may be a glitch... Either way it's another thing that supports slight variations...



MadDawg -> RE: Combat Summary oddity and playback? (7/4/2004 6:55:59 AM)

Okay, interesting....I never realised that, hehe.

Btw guys, Ive just done some testing in your tutorial scenario Frag and by comparing the combat movie to the 'aircraft losses' report in the turn part of the game, it seems that the movie playback might actually be close to 100% accurate? I only did about 4-5 test, but each time the amount of plans I counted as killed was the same as the report. If so this kinda makes sense as you actually watch the battle with real kills and then see a combat summary with pilot error....thought I would mention it :)

Dawg



latosusi -> RE: Combat Summary oddity and playback? (7/4/2004 10:34:42 AM)

Maybe some of the Zero's were destroyed on runway?



MadDawg -> RE: Combat Summary oddity and playback? (7/4/2004 10:39:04 AM)

I thought of that but they were on LR CAP :)



Charles2222 -> RE: Combat Summary oddity and playback? (7/4/2004 11:47:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadDawg

Okay, interesting....I never realised that, hehe.

Btw guys, Ive just done some testing in your tutorial scenario Frag and by comparing the combat movie to the 'aircraft losses' report in the turn part of the game, it seems that the movie playback might actually be close to 100% accurate? I only did about 4-5 test, but each time the amount of plans I counted as killed was the same as the report. If so this kinda makes sense as you actually watch the battle with real kills and then see a combat summary with pilot error....thought I would mention it :)

Dawg


I suspected they were the same as well, but Frag is telling us it's not accurate. So when it states whatever happened to an a/c in dogfight isn't accurate, but 'your' side goes with those figures. The other side will report inaccurately as well, but the figures are probably different to reflect their viewpoint.



Mr.Frag -> RE: Combat Summary oddity and playback? (7/4/2004 11:50:17 PM)

They are wrong to both sides. Picture a 3rd person watching and taking notes ... They make lots of mistakes [:D]



Charles2222 -> RE: Combat Summary oddity and playback? (7/5/2004 12:29:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

They are wrong to both sides. Picture a 3rd person watching and taking notes ... They make lots of mistakes [:D]


Hmm, I thought I said that.



Arnir -> RE: Combat Summary oddity and playback? (7/5/2004 12:50:32 AM)

So, is there a display (Or is it the combat reports you can look at the next turn) that tell you *your* correct losses. I would assume that units should know their own losses. Enemy losses were almost always exagerated, so I wouldn't worry about or expect accuracy on that one.



MadDawg -> RE: Combat Summary oddity and playback? (7/5/2004 1:15:00 AM)

Okay, this doesnt make sense to me and to be honest it feels like something isnt working properly. [:)]

Currently sub attacks and naval attacks 'Combat Summary' show an accurate account of what was actually seen in the 'combat animation', yet with aircraft we are being given *two* different accounts of the battle in both the combat animation and combat summary? This kinda sounds whacky to me as it is not consistant. Why give two different sets of 'Fog of War'ed' errornous results for air combat...just give us the one as that is much easier to keep track of. Currently this makes the Combat Summary worthless as usually it is exagerrate *way* more than the actual combat animation which seems to be closer to the actual battle results.

Also note in the manual it states the below...

"Each time a plane is damaged or destroyed, it is added to the total report on the Combat Summary. Thus, one plane can be damaged 4 times and then destroyed and it was cause a report of 4 planes damaged and 1 plane destroyed."

This sounds like the Combat Summary should indeed be a representation of the actual combat taking place in the animation as results as said to be added up (from the animation) for the combat summary? Im pretty sure that UV was pretty close to this too.

Not trying to be a pain, but it just kinda feels broke at the moment [:)]. As someone mentioned in the support forum, the Combat Summary is showing some VERY whacky results at times.

Dawg


PS : arnir, I dont believe there is any way to get your actual losses for a particular dog fight as both players see the same turn playback and thus FOW needs to be applied to both sides. The best you can do is to count the planes in a squadron before and after the turn or in smaller battles try and keep track via the aircraft losses panel.



Charles2222 -> RE: Combat Summary oddity and playback? (7/5/2004 1:49:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arnir

So, is there a display (Or is it the combat reports you can look at the next turn) that tell you *your* correct losses. I would assume that units should know their own losses. Enemy losses were almost always exagerated, so I wouldn't worry about or expect accuracy on that one.


I don't know, but it sounds as though they're inaccurate throughout. The only catch, and we would probably want such a catch, is that 'somewhere' the numbers have to be correct. It would be logical that sooner or later 'your' losses/gains would be accurate, but not those of the enemy.



Castelnau -> RE: Combat Summary oddity and playback? (7/5/2004 2:26:35 PM)

Hi all,

I have been a long time lurker but Witp has brought me out of the woodwork. Great game! The scope is mind boggoling.... Anyway, I have to say that I have also observed the same results that MadDawg has mentioned. This to me also "feels" like a bug because I always thought that you would be *accurately* told your own losses. Just throwing in my 2 cents worth.....



MadDawg -> RE: Combat Summary oddity and playback? (7/5/2004 2:27:54 PM)

I do beleive the aircraft losses report that you can access during your actual orders is accurate guys, but is only shows totals for the entire day. At least this gives you an indicator of air losses each day though :)

My main concern is that the Combat Animation and Combat Summery of that animation dont show the same results...yet they do for surface and sub combat. This kinda makes me think something is a little whacky here as even the manual indicates they should relate.

Dawg



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