No Box/Manual a mistake? (Full Version)

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Tomus -> No Box/Manual a mistake? (7/6/2004 12:15:00 AM)

I know this has been done, and its not price I am quibbling but I really think not offering Matrix Games with a full on box, manual, map whatever is a serious mistake...

I loved the packaging HTTR came in and felt pretty good receiving it through the post. Digital Download doesn't really grab me TBH...

Are there any plans at all ever to cater for the box and manual gang? I'd gladly pay extra for a manual, maps whatever hell even a book attached or something. I don't know what everyone else thinks and maybe digital download is what people want I just think many people would jump at the full on release...



Marc von Martial -> RE: No Box/Manual a mistake? (7/6/2004 12:44:41 AM)

Box on demand service will start in August, according to Digital River. Which will give you three options:

1. Digital Download only
2. Digital Donwload + CD on demand (labelled CD with software on it)
3. Digital Download + Box on demand (labelled CD with software and game box)

Whatever you pruchase you allways have also the option to download if you can´t wait for the CD and / or box to arrive.

Manuals will allways only be provided as PDFs from now on, but we´re currently talking with Kinkos about expanding our deal with them.

The one or other title that we feel will do good in normal retail will go retail. But that will be the exception.



W Thorne -> RE: No Box/Manual a mistake? (7/6/2004 12:51:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

Box on demand service will start in August, according to Digital River. Which will give you three options:

1. Digital Download only
2. Digital Donwload + CD on demand (labelled CD with software on it)
3. Digital Download + Box on demand (labelled CD with software and game box)

Whatever you pruchase you allways have also the option to download if you can´t wait for the CD and / or box to arrive.

Manuals will allways only be provided as PDFs from now on, but we´re currently talking with Kinkos about expanding our deal with them.

The one or other title that we feel will do good in normal retail will go retail. But that will be the exception.


Can't go wrong there. You have the best of all worlds.

I realize some people like the manuals and boxes but I could care less. Downloaded WitP on Thursday, got up to speed on the game on Friday and have been playing all weekend.

Nice job guys on offering so many alternatives.



ravinhood -> RE: No Box/Manual a mistake? (7/6/2004 1:17:05 AM)

The only problem I have with PDF files is you can't curl up in bed with them or sit on the throne in the throne room and peruse them. Unless of course you print them out and put them in a binder. I always liked a good manual and a colorful map with my games, back in the days of SSI and some of their wargames the maps came laminated, like with Gettysburg and Antietam and Carrier Force and you could use a grease pensil and mark all over them and then erase, ahhh the good ole days of superior customer service. ;)



wodin -> RE: No Box/Manual a mistake? (7/6/2004 3:07:24 AM)

Cant you buy box only without the extra of digital download aswell?

HTTR box and manual are superb.



Marc von Martial -> RE: No Box/Manual a mistake? (7/6/2004 11:11:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Cant you buy box only without the extra of digital download aswell?

HTTR box and manual are superb.


What do you mean? The box without the actuall product? No, that isn´t possible.



lawrence -> RE: No Box/Manual a mistake? (7/15/2004 7:46:54 PM)

I don't think that not having a box/manual is a mistake, but I do think that charging an additional amount for the game CD is. For me, this taking the direct to the consumer model too far. I went from credit card in hand to saying "no sale" the minute I saw that I would be charged an additional 10 USD for the game CD. WITP is the first GG product going back 20 years that I have not purchased.

I have become a major fan of Matrix Games, and find it unfortunate to see these pricing policies. After purchasing Uncommon Valor, I shortly found it on a retailer's shelf at the same price and box/manual...

The direct consumer is perhaps the most loyal consumer, and should never get less for their patronage. Unfortunately most consumers will not take the time to protest such policies, so things seldom change. Next time you go to make a direct purchase online where there is a "shipping and handling" charge refuse it, and watch how frequently and quickly it is dropped.

Please don't take my comments as overly negative. I love Matrix Games, but will not support any product where an "additional" charge is required on top of full retail price for the complete product. I seriously doubt that WITP would be marketed on a retailer's shelf for a price sticker of $80!!! $69.95 is pushing the upper limit of fair market value - which I'd be willing to pay.

Regards,
Larry



Hexed Gamer -> RE: No Box/Manual a mistake? (7/15/2004 8:36:58 PM)

I think the box is neat. But I can't for the life of me understand what makes having ons special.

I think manuals are "neat" but considering I thought the black and white small font manuals for EYSA and HTTR were probably not worth getting, I would rather it was just a very colourful file in the program. because odds are a colour print out on my printer would look better.

As for the game coming on a cd, well hmm considering how easy it is to burn a cd today, I would have to be insane to pay 10 bucks for it. I just don't understand how a person would accept that option.
Isn't it easier to find someone with a cd burner?

I am old fashioned, and I like games in boxes with manuals on a professionally labelled cd.

But, I would much rather the convenience of a digital download which means I don't have to wonder where to find the game on a store shelf.

Sure ain't going to be found in my town.

For those that insist on box manual and cd, you will just have to pay for it.

It's all optional :)



mjk428 -> RE: No Box/Manual a mistake? (7/15/2004 9:47:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer
As for the game coming on a cd, well hmm considering how easy it is to burn a cd today, I would have to be insane to pay 10 bucks for it. I just don't understand how a person would accept that option.


Not everyone has broadband access, or even internet access at home. So digital download may be great for you and me but for someone that has no realistic choice but to wait for the disk in the mail, paying "extra" isn't going to sit well. From a marketing standpoint, I think Matrix should have priced WitP at $80, same as War in Russia was years ago, and then sold it for a discount @ $70 for those that did the digital download. Same difference but much easier to accept.


edit -

I do think it's funny, in a non-humorous way, that so much consideration seems to be given for wargamers that are still playing on obsolete computers and then a delivery system is used that seems to give short shrift to those not riding in the fast lane of the information highway.



wodin -> RE: No Box/Manual a mistake? (7/15/2004 10:05:27 PM)

I mean cant you just buy a boxed game like HTTR with out having also to pay for the digital download.

Otherwise I can see this being a rather expensive way to buy a product.



Mr.Frag -> RE: No Box/Manual a mistake? (7/15/2004 10:37:06 PM)

You are not paying for DD. You are paying for the game.

Should you also want a CD, there is a service charge of 10 bucks to make a CD and ship it to you because it requires manual labour of someone.

I don't get how people see this as being charged extra. Do you think Matrix should pay shipping and handling? Do you think they should commit the extra resources to produce a physical cd and a mailing envelope for free?

Perhaps they just need to get rid of the DD only option and charge the same whether or not you put a shipping address in for a CD. But then the many folks who can make their OWN backup who are saving Matrix a bit of money get nothing for their efforts.



lawrence -> RE: No Box/Manual a mistake? (7/15/2004 10:53:51 PM)

The point of not everyone having high speed internet access is very valid. I live in an area where dial-up is the only option other than very expensive satellite access. But I as a consumer refuse to pay "extra" for that. As is, with the direct to consumer model Matrix is following they have greatly reduced overhead and distribution costs. I'm sure that Matrix will continue to be successful, but how many sales are they willing to lose by charging (what is to me) an excessive extra charge for the product?

Of course this policy may change down the road, but you all know as well as I that the big sales numbers are immediate post release. I've never been willing to pay full retail for a computer game product that is not very near release. Six months from now the products market value will almost certainly be decreased, as will interest in future products by consumers that feel that their business in not wanted or appreciated.

Of course only Matrix can judge what fits their business interests best, but I firmly believe that this is the wrong way to lose a 69.95 sale by saving the cost of a CD, envelope and a stamp. Seems to be missing a bit of profit on a finished product, and that of future sales.

Regards,
Larry



Hexed Gamer -> RE: No Box/Manual a mistake? (7/15/2004 11:16:04 PM)

Still don't see the problem.

Hands up here, all those that have no friends none at all.
No one that has broadband.
No one that has a cd burner.
No help options at all.

If I had a buddy that wanted the game and it was his money not mine I would gladly download it and burn it to cd for him.
I would likely make him two copies so that he had a safe master to store and a play one that he would not have any risk in using.

And yes, I would not sneak in a scammed copy.

I mean, we are all fixated on the idea that a person might not have broadband and might not have a burner.

But do you also not have even one friend that does?



Jcatarino -> RE: No Box/Manual a mistake? (7/16/2004 12:50:17 AM)

How did we come down to this???

How can we accept as natural and right to have such a complex, expensive game without a printed manual?

How can I buy the 2nd most expensive game I have ever aquired (the most expensive was "the 7th guest" - 1st cd game) and Alt-Tab my way trough the game tutorial and game manual!!

I'm not in any way blaming Matrix Games for this, it's not their fault, it is the common politic for developers these days to ship games only with the pdf. It's our fault because we.ve been buying these games for a few years now. If we had sent a message then, when they started this trend maybe we could get a manual now.

Someone will argue that the cost would be to high. That it wouldn't make enough profit. Is it true? It is true that inflation hasn't hit games very badly and we can get them for the same money we got them 15 years ago. But hasn't the market grown exponentialy too? Every year I see that the gamming industry has beaten another sales record. Isn't there room for a good old fashioned manual like I have many in my shelf? I have bought 1 or 2 games knowing in my subconscious that I wouldn't probably play it but I would like to have the info that came in the manual! (I know I'm a little crazy).

My point is that unless someone gives me real numbers I believe that game publishers have found an easy way of getting more profit by giving us only pdf's manuals and that it would be very easy to keep making them.

Of course WITP is a niche market and the numbers involved make the situation more complicated, but it's for games like this that we really need them. We don´t need a game manual for medal of honour or battlefield 1942. We need it for games like WITP. It's a pain to learn such a complex game ALT-TABBING my way through the manual (I didn't play UV) so I'm a newbie but I don't now if I have the will to learn the game like this.

Once again I'm not blaming Matrix. I knew what I was getting. I do not regret my purchase. But I may not buy the next one because of this and that's a shame I think because this community needs all the fans it can get to survive against the massive offensive that FPS are making to get the biggest number of players.



W Thorne -> RE: No Box/Manual a mistake? (7/16/2004 1:26:21 AM)

Well from a different perspective. My time is pretty tied up. I have not gone to a software store for some time mainly due to the fact that I don't have the time.

Just upgraded my DSL to a minimum of 1.5 - 3mps. Witp took me 20 minutes to download and now I have a new game to play. I have a tough time seeing anything wrong with that.

I realize not everyone has DSL or cable available to them. Give it a little time and you will. It will only get better and faster.



Arnir -> RE: No Box/Manual a mistake? (7/16/2004 1:53:40 AM)

While I don't have a problem with the DD, the situation can be ironic when viewed in certain ways. This isn't a slam on Matrix, just observing the market place. And I'm in a creative mood. <G>

Imagine the scene: July 1, 2004. You go into your car dealer: I want to buy the new Pontiac/Porche/Plymouth WTP model.
Yes, sir. It's only $45000.
What, that's more than I've paid for a car like this in years.
Yes, sir, but this is quite a car and it is worth the price. A value if not a bargain, sir. (Add sounds of other customers belittling those who don't like the price).
I see your point, okay I'll take one.
Great, sir. This way to sign the paperwork. Oh, by the way, where is your truck, sir?
Truck? What truck?
Well, sir. The PPP WTP is prepackaged for easy assembly.
What?!?
Yes, sir. The PPP WTP is sent to you prepackaged to make things more efficient for the customer.
Huh?
This way, sir, you don't have to wait for the factory to acually assemble the vehicle for you. Shaves off a full day and a half sir for you to get this delight into your garage.
But, but, how do I assemble it?
Really, sir, you can't tell me that you don't have the knowledge and tools to build a car that comes with instructions? Really, sir, cars have been around for over a century.
But, but...
If you can't do it yourself, then surely you have a friend or two that can do it for you?
But, but...
Well, sir, I can tell that you and this car belong together. No customer leaves our dealership unhappy. For only $5850 we can assemble the car for you.
What? You want more for the car and then want to charge me over another 10% to deliver it in the condition everyone else delivers a car in?
Well, sir, you must understand that assembly costs money and this car is such a value.
Well, you do have a point. And I really do want this car.
Excellent, right this way, sir.
Well, my friend has a flatbed that I can pick the car up with.
A flatbed, sir? I'm sorry sir, but our access road doesn't handle trucks like that.
What?...

Okay, this is not a one to one comparison obviously.
I understand the .pdf manual especially seeing how much printers charge for a color page. (I know it would be less en masse).
I even understand (and like) the DD system. But I really think customers should have the choice of ordering the physical disk and not getting the DD for the same price as DD. If they want both, I can see paying for both. But $10 for a cheap CD (w/o even a fancy game label?) some sort of disk sleeve or jewel case and then shipping & handling? Seems a tad bit excessive.

But, Matrix can charge what the market will bear. None of us has a "right" to the game. Either we buy it or not. I do like not having to have the CD in the drive. However, I can fully understand the dissatisfaction of those who feel unhappy with having to DL the product and burn their own disk (often not as reliable as a commericial product burn) for a price higher than many of these people have ever paid. (And for some customers, the glory of dealing with Digital River). And then to be asked to pay around 14% more for a CD?

I chose to DL and burn my own CD. Not a big deal for me now that I have a cable modem. A year ago it wouldn't have been an option. I didn't buy the CD because it didn't make sense for me. I'm happy with the game. It is a niche product and I'm interested in the subject. If a new WiR comes out at the same price, I won't be buying it. Don't care enough about the subject. No biggie.

Having people belittle those who aren't happy with the price (which happened before release and after release) is not productive. A buddy with a burner is nice but how many people are supposed to be involved in buying a computer game?

My point is that is shouldn't be that hard to understand those upset or not buying because of the situation.

Oh, one other note, I wish I could alt-tab between the game and the manual. The game suffers graphics corruption if I do that while it is processing a turn. I set my laptop up so I could "multitask" that way. [:)]

Before the flame throwers come out: I bought the game. I'm happy with it. I also know that none -NONE- none of my gaming buddies will ever buy this game and play it with me because of the price (and that we don't pirate games).

Oh, btw, I did want to point out that I do know that some exclusive cars (kits) come exactly this way. [:)]



Jcatarino -> RE: No Box/Manual a mistake? (7/16/2004 2:15:01 AM)

My computer also gets graphics corruption when I multitask but it's enough to move the mouse to left/right to scroll the main window and the screen goes back to normal.



Arnir -> RE: No Box/Manual a mistake? (7/16/2004 2:17:58 AM)

If I multitask during orders, I can usually fix it if necessary the way you describe.

If it is during the execution, no joy.

Thanks for the advice,though. Much appreciated.



wodin -> RE: No Box/Manual a mistake? (7/16/2004 2:27:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

You are not paying for DD. You are paying for the game.

Should you also want a CD, there is a service charge of 10 bucks to make a CD and ship it to you because it requires manual labour of someone.

I don't get how people see this as being charged extra. Do you think Matrix should pay shipping and handling? Do you think they should commit the extra resources to produce a physical cd and a mailing envelope for free?

Perhaps they just need to get rid of the DD only option and charge the same whether or not you put a shipping address in for a CD. But then the many folks who can make their OWN backup who are saving Matrix a bit of money get nothing for their efforts.


I think if you take the option with a box and CD aswell as a DD then it will be more than $10.

Why not have an option at a cheaper rate of just a box and CD? So your telling me that if you buy the boxed game then the DD will be for free?

No need to get on your high horse mate.[;)]



lawrence -> RE: No Box/Manual a mistake? (7/16/2004 6:36:05 AM)

First, let's all remain civil. It certainly would not be in anyone's interest to turn this discourse into a "slam Matrix" show. Matrix makes good games, and IMHO is getting even better at it.

The flip-side is that they seem to be pursuing a more aggressive pricing policy which is impacting sales. Once again I ask how bad do you all think sales would be impacted with a shelf price of 80+ USD? With slow dial-up internet access and multiple disconnect issues, if the consumer doesn't consent to paying an addition "insurance" charge for the game CD a corrupted file can steal your program and money.

I also have had the experience before with DD where I've had corrupt file issues, or in the case of Championship Boxing Manager having the vendor refuse to give me the registration key in a timely manner. Bottom line for me and many other consumers is that DD may be a nice option, but charging additional for the product without utilizing DD is unacceptable.

This is not meant to be confrontational, but informative. If some of the negative perspectives are not examined, how can improvement occur? We should be using these forums with the intent of supporting Matrix products. I just firmly believe that Matrix would be more successful for rewarding the repeat consumer rather than punishing them for not having DSL.

Regards,
Larry



lawrence -> RE: No Box/Manual a mistake? (7/16/2004 6:48:07 AM)

Oh... also: A staff member has posted that you (the consumer) can NOT burn a back-up copy. Which means pay extra or if you get a new computer system, have a corrupted file, system crash, whatever you lose you game and money. That ain't right....



PeckingFury -> RE: No Box/Manual a mistake? (7/16/2004 6:49:39 AM)

If I kept the box to every game Ive ever owned I wouldnt have room for much of anything else. I prefer the DD and the pdf manual, update the manual with a simple download. Alt-tab may be extremely hard for some but I prefer it over the printed manual. Besides I play the games with very little light flipping thru a 200 page manual by monitor light is unthinkable.



Redleg47 -> RE: No Box/Manual a mistake? (7/16/2004 7:04:44 AM)

Ok, I admit it, I collect things. I have tons of artwork all over my walls, in fact, in my "game room" I have wallpapered two walls with all of the game boxes from all my games over the years. I also have a serious pc cd game collection. I don't like burning cds and to this have never burned one cd. I like my game CDs with cool pictures on them so they look great in my game library. I also have postered all over my walls the maps and other bonuses that have come with games over the years (such as the maps/posters from Europa Universalis, Kingmaker, Praetorians, Task Force 1942, Chef De Bataillon).

I make good money and am willing to pay for the things I like. In fact I used to be legal counsel for a number of game design companies just like Matrix. I applaud your purchasing options. I WILL buy your games available with a box and CD. I will not buy something that is strictly available as a download.

Too bad manuals are not available, I've gone through two cartridges printing the manual for LGAA.

If you really wanted to please this customer you would make some of the digital art from your games available as screensavers and desktops - a nice, easy bonus that would please a few of us. [&o][&o]

-Redleg - looking forward to La Grande Armee on the Danube



Arnir -> RE: No Box/Manual a mistake? (7/16/2004 7:30:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lawrence

Oh... also: A staff member has posted that you (the consumer) can NOT burn a back-up copy. Which means pay extra or if you get a new computer system, have a corrupted file, system crash, whatever you lose you game and money. That ain't right....


Where was that? Everything I've seen has been the opposite from Matrix. You are allowed to burn the download onto a CD.



Marc von Martial -> RE: No Box/Manual a mistake? (7/16/2004 10:48:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lawrence
After purchasing Uncommon Valor, I shortly found it on a retailer's shelf at the same price and box/manual...

Please don't take my comments as overly negative. I love Matrix Games, but will not support any product where an "additional" charge is required on top of full retail price for the complete product. I seriously doubt that WITP would be marketed on a retailer's shelf for a price sticker of $80!!! $69.95 is pushing the upper limit of fair market value - which I'd be willing to pay.


Uncommon Valor was allways bundled with box and inlay card, the added printed Players Guide was an addon to the v2.0 version of UV.

WITP wouldn´t have gone retail for 9.99$ even. There is no space left on the shelves for wargames like this. This is an 200% niche title that only the hardest grognards play. The ammount of work the went into it and the ammount of sales we figure it will make justify the current price tag IMHO. You have to be able to break even.



Marc von Martial -> RE: No Box/Manual a mistake? (7/16/2004 10:50:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I mean cant you just buy a boxed game like HTTR with out having also to pay for the digital download.

Otherwise I can see this being a rather expensive way to buy a product.


You pay for the game and then you have all of the options I mentioned above.



Marc von Martial -> RE: No Box/Manual a mistake? (7/16/2004 10:56:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin


I think if you take the option with a box and CD aswell as a DD then it will be more than $10.

Why not have an option at a cheaper rate of just a box and CD? So your telling me that if you buy the boxed game then the DD will be for free?



Once again, you pay for the game. DD, DD+CD, DD+CD+Box are only options. When you select DD+CD for example then nobody is forcing you to download actually [;)]. You could also replace the term "DD" with simply "product".



Marc von Martial -> RE: No Box/Manual a mistake? (7/16/2004 10:58:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lawrence

Oh... also: A staff member has posted that you (the consumer) can NOT burn a back-up copy. Which means pay extra or if you get a new computer system, have a corrupted file, system crash, whatever you lose you game and money. That ain't right....


Exactly the opposite is correct. Of course you ARE allowed to burn a copy for personal backup purposes.

Can you show me the thread where the staff member sayed that you´re not allowed to brun a personal backup copy?



Marc von Martial -> RE: No Box/Manual a mistake? (7/16/2004 11:01:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Redleg47

Ok, I admit it, I collect things. I have tons of artwork all over my walls, in fact, in my "game room" I have wallpapered two walls with all of the game boxes from all my games over the years. I also have a serious pc cd game collection. I don't like burning cds and to this have never burned one cd. I like my game CDs with cool pictures on them so they look great in my game library.

I make good money and am willing to pay for the things I like. In fact I used to be legal counsel for a number of game design companies just like Matrix. I applaud your purchasing options. I WILL buy your games available with a box and CD. I will not buy something that is strictly available as a download.

If you really wanted to please this customer you would make some of the digital art from your games available as screensavers and desktops - a nice, easy bonus that would please a few of us. [&o][&o]


That´s exactly why I "forced" the management into the "box on demand " option [;)] I think the same way. I wan´t a box on my shelf or better I want the option to have it if I want it.



lawrence -> RE: No Box/Manual a mistake? (7/16/2004 12:54:21 PM)

quote:

Exactly the opposite is correct. Of course you ARE allowed to burn a copy for personal backup purposes.

Can you show me the thread where the staff member sayed that you´re not allowed to brun a personal backup copy?


Marc - After going hunting through threads and carefully reading this time... I stand corrected. I had thought we were prohibited from "burning" our own copies which we are not. This entirely changes the issue. I not only stand corrected, but stand by my prior statement that I love Matrix games!!! This misconception was the only thing that I took issue with, and I was wrong.

Now once that blush settles down a bit, I hope you don't mind if I go grab my credit card!

regards,
Larry



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