CD Guns (Full Version)

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Tenzan -> CD Guns (7/6/2004 2:59:22 AM)

I wonder if CD units arent too hard to knock out?
I've been running 006 and have just been hammering Saipan with TF52.17 and 52.10 (8BB 2CA 1CL 14DD) along with all my DE's and LCI(G)'s and I just can't seem to keep the CD units under suppression or control. They've sank 5 DD's, 10 Landers and damaged just about everything, and caused 6-7,000 ground casaulties (I know some of these are op losses...)

And in return, the mighty US armada has silenced ~20 guns..no worry...just a few hundred to go!

But, seriously..I wonder if there's some 'counterbattery' element missing in shore engagements? I know a few games isn't a smoking gun, but, the performance of coast batteries does raise an eyebrow..I'd even accept the above figures if it got rid of every 5" and 8" emplacement, but..those are still there..the gun hits have all been light 105mm stuff...I just don't see how an emplacement can engage a fleet at will and the fleet can't disable it, in turn...

But, just an observation-Not saying the game's broken or anything..maybe something to look iat for the next patch? See if anything's up?



Mr.Frag -> RE: CD Guns (7/6/2004 3:37:56 AM)

I got them boosted up because I invaded Singapore on turn #1 [:D]

Use your air force, they'll hurt soon enough.



Tenzan -> RE: CD Guns (7/6/2004 5:31:12 AM)

Invaded Singapore on turn 1? Ouch!


Well, too much is better than not enough, like it was in UV, where CD units just wasted support points...It would be nice to see Bombardment TF's try and prioritize knocking out the 5" and 8" guns, and not sweating the smaller stuff until the bigger emplacements are put out of commission, though.



Erik Rutins -> RE: CD Guns (7/6/2004 6:07:08 AM)

Keep in mind that with BBs, the first bombardment will be the most effective as after that they are often low on main gun ammunition. If you can resupply them and then keep hammering away, you get far more coastal guns. Also, I don't know if you bombard at night or in the day, but I've had good luck doing daytime bombardments with those BB task forces against coastal defense guns.

Regards,

- Erik



MadDawg -> RE: CD Guns (7/6/2004 6:12:21 AM)

On a similar note guys, what is the best way to gaurantee my bombardment ground will attack by day?

For instance lets say I want to bombard a base and I know the air response will be light, such as the situations the Japanese have early in the war....I want my group to bombard at range with its 14" BB guns instead of coming in close at night and risking return fire from the lighter CD 6-8" guns.

What order setup would be best to get this to happen? Actually, the same could be said if you wanted to attack a cruiser group during the day to make use of those big guns on the Yamato [:)] I can actually see daylight bombardment being quite a bit more useful in the early and later years of the war than it was in UV.

Dawg

(Hehe, I pasted this in a new threads as I thought it might be of interest to others, but Ill stick the question back here as Eric already answered)



Erik Rutins -> RE: CD Guns (7/6/2004 6:15:54 AM)

Try using the Patrol / No Retire orders rather than the Retirement Allowed orders. That should get them to arrive during the day and stay around. As you said, it's generally only a good idea when there's not too much airpower to worry about.

Regards,

- Erik



pompack -> RE: CD Guns (7/6/2004 7:24:02 AM)

For an additional datapoint, I lost half of the Corregidor guns to a single night bombardment by Haruna, Kongo and a flock of escorts. The CD guns got only one hit on Haruna but sank six DD.



Hard Sarge -> RE: CD Guns (7/6/2004 12:12:04 PM)

Also been playing number 6

in this game, I Went south instead at the start (went to Pagan too, but that was a mistake) took Satawal, Wolesi and Ulithi, had my great sea battles, chased off the IJN and most of the Air power

late July, started hammering Guam with B-24's from Wolesi and send in some BB groups to soften them up, the early Aug landings went in with very soft defence fire

so over all, I would say, you need to soften the ground and burn out there supplies before landing

I still seemed to take some troop losses, but ship damage was very light

of course, Sipian may be a different story, but my plans did not include that base as a target, I am pushing the timeline to get to Tinian now

Aug 16th, IJN 4600, US 7100 (give or take a few points)

HARD_Sarge



Charles2222 -> RE: CD Guns (7/6/2004 2:17:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pompacl

For an additional datapoint, I lost half of the Corregidor guns to a single night bombardment by Haruna, Kongo and a flock of escorts. The CD guns got only one hit on Haruna but sank six DD.


Maybe the difference here is that a lot of the cd harm we're seeing is due to it being the first turn of a scenario, particularly #15. Maybe the difference is that a lot of turn one bombardment is done without the site being reconned beforehand. I have to suspect that if the target is fully revealed after turn one ends, and on turn two you 'specifically' recon the location and then bombard, alongside having it reconned again, there would be a difference. IOW, the idea is to recon the turn 'before' you order the bombardment, and then recon the same turn the bombardment will arrive too.



Feinder -> RE: CD Guns (7/6/2004 2:47:44 PM)

Also be aware that (normally) anything under a light cruiser (including DDs), normally has ZERO armor. Anything that gets fired at these ships is going to penetrate. Naturally, you'd expect the the 3" and 5" guns to hurt the DDs, but even 40mm, 20mm, 50cal, and 30cals will also damage your ships (again, they have penetration of at least 1, and your smaller ships have armor of 0).

So even your DDs can get raked fairly hard if these types of AA guns are firing at your DDs. It might be that, these AA guns are -not- firing at your DDs in that round (clarification Erik?), in which case disregard this. But if the AA weapons are firing back (I know that many of CD units have their own organic AA weapons), then they may very well be a strong contributer to your damage. That's something different in WitP than UV, in UV you could see the replay of the exchange between the ships and CD guns (which was normally clicked thru, but would be useful in this instance, to see if the AA guns were participating). I've never liked (in UV) that 50cals and 20mms could do so much SYS damage to DDs. I just think they should have 1 or 2 armor to eliminate that issue (for example, most aircraft have 1 armor, shouldn't a DD?).

Whatever.

Another way to help minimize your losses, is to omit DDs from your bombardment TF.

Put your CAs and BBs together in your bombardment TF, but omit the DDs. They'll egage the CD guns at 8000 yds or so, and do their deadly task. When the CDs fire back with their 5" guns, they are far less effective vs. the armor of the CAs and BBs (likely no damage at all). But if you include DDs in your TF, they will move to within 4000 yds so that the DDs can fire. The DDs are obviously vulnerable to the CD guns, and now you're putting them harm's way (and they're probably only contributing 10% of the damage anyways), so don't include them.

If you're worried about subs, put the DDs in an ASW TF assigned to follow the Bombardment TF (with your CAs and BBs), and that will help with the problem (and should keep your DDs away from the CD guns).

Regards,
-F-



Charles2222 -> RE: CD Guns (7/6/2004 3:53:41 PM)

That's a helpful point.



Tenzan -> RE: CD Guns (7/7/2004 4:17:38 AM)

quote:

Put your CAs and BBs together in your bombardment TF, but omit the DDs. They'll egage the CD guns at 8000 yds or so, and do their deadly task. When the CDs fire back with their 5" guns, they are far less effective vs. the armor of the CAs and BBs (likely no damage at all). But if you include DDs in your TF, they will move to within 4000 yds so that the DDs can fire. The DDs are obviously vulnerable to the CD guns, and now you're putting them harm's way (and they're probably only contributing 10% of the damage anyways), so don't include them.

If you're worried about subs, put the DDs in an ASW TF assigned to follow the Bombardment TF (with your CAs and BBs), and that will help with the problem (and should keep your DDs away from the CD guns).



Wow...

I tried this and..my word, it's night and day...removed Saipan's coast guns for the price of 6 system damage on a light curiser.
Great advice Feinder-It's such a good method and makes so much of a difference-not to mention sense- that it makes you feel dumb for not thinking of it!

BTW-where did you find the bit about the engagement ranges? I read the manual, and don't remember seeing that...



HawaiiFive-O -> RE: CD Guns (7/7/2004 4:30:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

If you're worried about subs, put the DDs in an ASW TF assigned to follow the Bombardment TF (with your CAs and BBs), and that will help with the problem (and should keep your DDs away from the CD guns).



I tried this, and I still got a couple of DDs hammered. So it would appear that you may still get your destroyers shot at using this theory.



MadDawg -> RE: CD Guns (7/7/2004 4:35:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

If you're worried about subs, put the DDs in an ASW TF assigned to follow the Bombardment TF (with your CAs and BBs), and that will help with the problem (and should keep your DDs away from the CD guns).

Regards,
-F-



Great tip Feinder!

One problem though...you are also removing their AA assest and allowing PT's, etc, to have a better shot at them....I think you might find *escort* is better as they try and ward off both sub and surface groups. I wonder if it also provies AA fire as well...if not I think it should as they really would be in a position too?

Also, I think maybe a patch should consider weather a bombarding group would really move in close enough with destroyers to risk them getting whacked if the costal defenses there have previously been spotted?

Dawg



Mr.Frag -> RE: CD Guns (7/7/2004 4:42:44 AM)

quote:

Also, I think maybe a patch should consider weather a bombarding group would really move in close enough with destroyers to risk them getting whacked if the costal defenses there have previously been spotted?


*that* is governed by the size of the ships you put in the TF. If you stick BB's in, they will stay out and paste. If you stick CL/DD, they will have to come in closer.



MadDawg -> RE: CD Guns (7/7/2004 4:48:39 AM)

True, but if you include DD's in the task force dont they then all move in and attack at a closer range, as describe above?

As I suggested you could add in an escort task force, but do these provide full AA support as they would if part of the group? On top of that dont they also have a chance of being attacked by coastal guns when following the BB's.

In reality it would be a very easy to tell the commander to standard off and bombard with the big guns, and Im sure it happened a lot....how can we do it here?

Dawg



Tenzan -> RE: CD Guns (7/7/2004 4:58:31 AM)

I just set a sort of rally point DH a cruising speed turn out, split off the DD's into an ASW screen and had them hold at the rally point, formed battle lines with the BB's CA's and CL's and went in bombarding leaving the destroyers just off the coast...Real good results, so far..Occasionally, they'll lock in on a cruiser and send it home early, but, the battle lines are definately doing some landscaping.. I usually set retire orders so they'll jog off, and I can send them back in...

Until the patch comes out, there's no need worrying over IJ subs on an atoll hex!

Mines, now...that's a scary thought..Reconnoitering's going to be a must...



MadDawg -> RE: CD Guns (7/7/2004 5:04:51 AM)

Thanks Tenzan, and I get what you mean. [:)] This is a lot of micromanaging though and could potentially really hurt if there any PT boats about. I guess it just seems like a lot to do for what should be a relatively simple order to give.

Basically Im just thinking that maybe the AI should be a little smarter here...if coastal guns are know in the location or if they take fire whilst moving in, move out and just use capital ships bombard.

Dawg



Tenzan -> RE: CD Guns (7/7/2004 5:13:38 AM)

Yep-the micromanaging IS the worst part,by far. But, it works better than losing 5-10 destroyers...I wish the AI was smarter, as well..we'll see what happens..

I always mircomanage my invasion TF packages to heck and back anyways, so, for me, well...I'm kind of used to it..


It's an interesting method..I suppose it does have weaknesses-you wouldn't want to do it if tons of TB's , Subs and Mines were around, but, it's effective and safe when it's safe to use!



MadDawg -> RE: CD Guns (7/7/2004 5:21:06 AM)

Well I think its a good idea and Ill be sure to give it a go [:)]

My main wish is to reduce some of the micromanaging that the player needs to do, and I think it could be done here by a realatively small AI tweak. Micromanaging wasnt too bad in UV as it was on a smaller scale, but now with the entire pacific theatre I dont want to get too bogged down too much where its not necessary.

Dan



Mike Scholl -> RE: CD Guns (7/7/2004 5:28:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pompacl

For an additional datapoint, I lost half of the Corregidor guns to a single night bombardment by Haruna, Kongo and a flock of escorts. The CD guns got only one hit on Haruna but sank six DD.


This result should not even be possible. Manilla Bay is guarded by a pre-war Coastal
Defense SYSTEM. It's not just a bunch of guns mounted where they can shoot at the
ocean. Those "dissappearing mounts" are only vulnerable to naval gunfire when they
are raised to shoot---and then the "target" presented is only about 1 square meter.
Miss that, you don't hurt anything. I see one of the big problems in the game in that
it doesn't differentiate between pre-war Coast Artillery Defense Systems and regular
artillery mounted to fire from a coastal position. The "systems" are integrated and at
least 10 times as accurate as any gun mounted afloat. Given that they would be shoot-
ing at ship sized targets, while the ships would be shooting at heavily protected gun-
sized targets, and you see why Navies didn't attempt to "force" locations like Manilla
or Singapore. It should simply be suicidal. The way to deal with them is with several
weeks of bombing from the air, or by taking them overland with ground troops, That's
one of the reasons that Oahu is virtually untakable..., the Coast Defenses coveredalmost the whole invadable shore of the island, so there wasn't any "back door" for troops to
get ashore and take them out.



Tenzan -> RE: CD Guns (7/7/2004 5:34:12 AM)

quote:

[My main wish is to reduce some of the micromanaging that the player needs to do, and I think it could be done here by a realatively small AI tweak. Micromanaging wasnt too bad in UV, but now with the entire pacific theatre I dont want to to bog me down too much where its not necessary.


Yep-I sort of define wargame as: game you micromanage. dunno if they can (or will) change it, though..Seems like they could change the targeting prioritizing, but, I'm sure that'd open up a whole can of worms when CD guns only fired at an AV in a sea of DD's, or something..I guess that's the good part of WITP, though..it's pretty spot on as it is now, and it's just begun the post-release development cycle! We'll see what improvements are in the works...



On the PT boat threat...Here's a nifty little addition:
Instead of ASW screen, leave your DD's as escorts or surface combat TF just off the coast, with max react range in range of the target, that way-If you get jumped, your DD's will come in and help.



freeboy -> RE: CD Guns (7/7/2004 5:48:58 AM)

will they react to a invasion beach which has a base you do not own.. I didn't think so.. good call



MadDawg -> RE: CD Guns (7/7/2004 5:50:32 AM)

Hehe, understood, and do note that I said 'need' to micromanage [:)]. Personally I actually like micromanaging my stuff, but I dont really want to be a *necessity* in simple situations such as this where the AI should be able to tackle it easily enough as would have a real commander on the scene.

Good call about the react range, Ill give that a go....freeboy might have a point there though, I thought it was just friendly bases come to think of it.

Dawg



Feinder -> RE: CD Guns (7/7/2004 6:07:42 AM)

Rats.

The ASW suggestion, was actually conjecture from the office (*weak grin*).

I seems like the CD guns get to shoot at anything in their hex, so putting anything as ASW/Escort is gonna hurt (*sigh*).

How do I know the engagement ranges? More guestimates on that, and experience with UV. If you watch the naval engagements, the BBs start shooting at about 12k - 16k yds, the CA about 8k - 12k yds, and DDs about 4k to 8k yds. But it your TF doesn't have DDs, your TF will stay at the longer range (because it doesn't need to move up).

Regarding the comment about your AA (anti-air) defense (that really has nothing to do with bombardment TFs). Be aware that each TF is attacked individually by a strike, but CAP covers the entire hex. So an example with everything...


You've got hex with an airfield and a port. The AF has 26 Buffalos set at 50% CAP.
Same hex has :
An air-combat TF with 36 Wildcats at 30% CAP.
A bombardment TF.
An ASW TF.
A transport TF.

An enemy airstrike shows up with 18 Nells. Since CAP protects -all- TFs from attack, your CAP will show up as...
(36 x .3) = 12 Wilcats and (26 x .5) = 13 Buffalos. The CAP engages the strike and kills/aborts 8 of them. The 10 remaining bombers splits up, 6 bombers vs. the aircombat Tf, and 4 bombers vs. the transport TF. The flak for each TF is calcualted separately against the strike against it (but it has no effect on planes attacking another TF).

Regards,
-F-



von Murrin -> RE: CD Guns (7/7/2004 6:11:04 AM)

CD units can and will shoot at anything that passes through their hex. My guess is ranges are tied to the weapon itself. I think a simple check in the unit databases would be sufficient to find out what ships can outrange the CD.



Tenzan -> RE: CD Guns (7/7/2004 6:16:32 AM)

Ahh...freeboy, you're right. I had reacting to carriers on the brain.....Dosen't work.

Another odd thing I noticed was: Sending the DD's along as a following force, sometimes they'll take damage, but, it's not in any combat reports...No hits logged, or anything..just show up with damage in the TF screen in the next turn. I *hope* it's not just my version that that's happening on...Is that a bug?

quote:

I dont really want to be a *necessity* in simple situations such as this where the AI should be able to tackle it easily enough as would have a real commander on the scene.


Yep-It would be nice to bombard with DD's and not lose half of them! Maybe it's like the Allied ASW: just a bit too much accuracy on the coast guns right now...I'm looking forward to seeing if the patch makes any changes..but, it's nice to see that there's a nice little tactical trick to help in certain situations..in the meantime.

quote:

CD units can and will shoot at anything that passes through their hex. My guess is ranges are tied to the weapon itself. I think a simple check in the unit databases would be sufficient to find out what ships can outrange the CD.


If the CD units have 8" guns up and running, not alot should outrange it..it's right up there with the really big stuff..about a 1/3d off..But, there's alot of difference when the base in question is armed with 5".. If Feinder is right-thanks again, btw!-, 5 inchers are on the outer boundary for BB forces..So..no hits, or very few. the DD's..well, they're almost at boresight range..



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